The strange case of Iain Duncan

[cheswick]

It is irrelevant who was rated higher, a GMs role in the draft is to choose the best player the team sees fit and will make the biggest impact

Its extremely relevant who was ranked higher. Its one thing to draft Alexander Daigle first overall and have him not pan out, when every other team in the league would have done the same thing.

Its a totally different kettle of fish to draft a Sergei Bautin at number 17 and have him not pan out, and have Bob MacKenzie not know who the hell was just drafted.

You can go through every GM in the history of the leagues draft picks and pick a better player who was drafted later in the draft in certain years..

 

[HannuJ]

Its a totally different kettle of fish to draft a Sergei Bautin at number 17 and have him not pan out, and have Bob MacKenzie not know who the hell was just drafted.
\

that was 1 of 2 Bautin moments that will live in infamy - TSN playing highlights of Sergey Brylin (who went on to have a longer career than Bautin) and Bautin, upon being traded to Detroit, vomiting after his first practice.

 

[Scheifele55]

So the fact that the majority of players taken in the NHL Jets v.1 after the Jets had much better if not HOF careers with the exception of Teemu Selanne?

Was it bad luck? Fluke?

1979 - Mann - Goulet
1980 - Babych - Savard
1982 - Kyte - David Shaw
1983 - McBain - Neely
1984 - No Pick
1985 - Stewart - Corriveau
1986 - Elyniuk - Leetch
1987 - Marchment - Cassels
1989 - Barnes - Guerin
1990 - Tkachuk - Brodeur
1991 - Aaron Ward - Forsberg
1992 - Bautin - Jason Smith
1994 - had no 1st round pick

6 HOFers in 14 years. Guerin may be 7
11 out of 14 years the player taken after had a better career.
Winnipeg was historically a top 10 draft choice team and selected 2 HOFers in their history. Tkachuk would be #3.

 

[Chad Guilbert]

I remember him as a child being a good Jets player. In 1988-89 he had 44 points in 57 games and then the next year played all but 2 games in the AHL and that was it. What happened to him and does anyone remember why he was demoted only to really never return?

He was my favorite Jet. Loved him in the corners. He really got burned by Smith. Some coaches and Managers make you or break you. I wish it wasn't like this in hockey as I've had my fill of a few bad coaches.

 

[HannuJ]

The answer as to what happened is Mike Smith.
Not the Phoenix goalie but the Jets GM at the time.
I actually met Slam Duncan at Jets training camp back in the day when you
could walk right up to their dressing room.

He gave me a stick and signed it. I wished him luck for the season with the Jets
and he said I won't be playing here. Mike Smith took over as GM half way through
the previous season and really hated him and even though Detroit was trying to trade
for him, Smith was going to bury him in the minors instead of trading him.

I was shocked that he shared it with me but no one was around at the time and I think
he needed to get it off his chest. Duncan was shaken that day and Smith ruined his
career. Look at his numbers and he was doing well both in the NHL and minors.
He got shafted.

I am friends with an ex-Jet. i can tell you that Smith did this on a number of occasions. not saying Duncan would have been a good player, but Smith liked to set examples.
just use Kris Draper, who was key in Canada's play at the juniors, and then traded for $1 to Detroit, as an example

 

[voyageur]

I am friends with an ex-Jet. i can tell you that Smith did this on a number of occasions. not saying Duncan would have been a good player, but Smith liked to set examples.
just use Kris Draper, who was key in Canada's play at the juniors, and then traded for $1 to Detroit, as an example

If Duncan had been a good hockey player, he would have had a good career like Draper. I think he was opportunistic, getting to be the guy who worked the corners for Hawerchuk. Gave him some points. Now it was documented elsewhere here that Smith didn't get along with Hawerchuk. I wouldn't be surprised if Duncan got caught in that animosity. Smith completely rebuilt the team into a more skilled one. I think the only players that he kept from the old era in his time are Steen, Olausson, Numminen, Carlyle and Essensa. It's hard to say that the 79 goals we got from Fenton, Ashton, and Smail in 1989-90 hurt us, in demoting Duncan.

Ferguson focused too much on toughness, as that was his role as a player. He made some bad trades, but he made some good moves too. The Babych trade got criticized the most, but I thought we adequately replaced Babych with Dave Ellett. The Carlyle trade was probably made to get some more experience defensemen after Serge Savard retired. We probably would have been better off with Bodger and Mantha, as Carlyle was never a force here, but was steadier defensively than Babych, in my opinion. Fergie was a big reason for the Jets getting into the NHL, as he had ties to the Molsons, who were pivotal in getting us accepted in the NHL, after first rejecting us.

I always felt that the Jets biggest weakness was goaltending. Hayward was ok. Berthiaume and Reddick were ok. Bob Essensa was ok. We never had the Moog, Fuhr, Ranford dominance. It's a Jets draft pick traded for Robert Picard that gave the Canadiens Patrick Roy. Vernon was usually better, as was Kirk Mc Lean in the 90s. It's why older Jets fans can appreciate the solid goaltending we have now.

 

[Fuhrious]

I always felt that the Jets biggest weakness was goaltending. Hayward was ok. Berthiaume and Reddick were ok. Bob Essensa was ok. We never had the Moog, Fuhr, Ranford dominance. It's a Jets draft pick traded for Robert Picard that gave the Canadiens Patrick Roy. Vernon was usually better, as was Kirk Mc Lean in the 90s. It's why older Jets fans can appreciate the solid goaltending we have now.

Essensa was solid, spiking to above average. Hayward was largely utter crap as a Jet and only really made his name once he moved on. Berthiaume and Reddick were below average spiking to average, sadly. Both were particularly easy to root for and I desperately wanted both to take the next step, but neither ever really did. Sprinkle in the Soetaert's and Beauregard's of that decade and it's pretty effing grim...

 

[Al Camino]

Its extremely relevant who was ranked higher. Its one thing to draft Alexander Daigle first overall and have him not pan out, when every other team in the league would have done the same thing.

Its a totally different kettle of fish to draft a Sergei Bautin at number 17 and have him not pan out, and have Bob MacKenzie not know who the hell was just drafted.

You can go through every GM in the history of the leagues draft picks and pick a better player who was drafted later in the draft in certain years..

Very true. Every GM would have taken Daigle ahead of Pronger that year. Our current GM has benefited from this. Connor, Ehlers and now Prefetti. Imagine if Boston had taken Connor and Chabot with 2 of their 3 picks in a row!

 

[Al Camino]

I believe Korolev was ushered in by the Blues. Jets claimed him in what was then called the waiver draft.

Smith did bring in some pretty good talent, but I mostly remember being sold "broken promises" on young up and comers from Russia who mostly failed to amount to anything.

Prospects like Sergei Sorokin, Yan Kaminsky, Ravil Gusmanov, Dimitri Fillimonov, Harije Vitolinsh, Ruslam Batryshin and Sergei Kharin. WOW ... that's a blast from the past

It just amazes me that for someone who adored the Russians like he did, Smith sure missed out on some high quality Russians between 1989 and 1993. Players like Fedorov, Bure, Konstantinov, Zubov, Zhitnik, Malakhov, Nemchinov, Kravchuk and Zelepukin to name a few. All of which were drafted between the 4th and 12th rounds.

Hindsight is 20/20 but damn, snagging some of those instead of the list of the former JETS prospects above, may have changed the team's fortunes.

So true. It's not that he drafted a bunch of Russians, it's that he drafted the wrong ones all the time. That said, is it wrong that Igor Ulanov was one of my favorite Jets?

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Ian "Slam" Duncan had an excellent rookie year, but that was about all.

I was coaching hockey in St. James at the time & our team won a promotion the Jets were throwing, selling tickets for a Kids Carnival being put on by the Jets wives.

For selling the most tickets, Ian Duncan came out & spent a few hours in practice, running the kids through drills. He was great with the kids & mentioned in our conversations that he was an active member of the Jets PR team, helping out with events going on in the community.

The following year he was demoted to the AHL, despite being selected to the All Rookie team at LW the year prior. My recollection it was immediately out of training camp which surprised many, although I could be wrong & the demotion occurred mid-year.

 

[sting13]

Ian "Slam" Duncan had an excellent rookie year, but that was about all.

I was coaching hockey in St. James at the time & our team won a promotion the Jets were throwing, selling tickets for a Kids Carnival being put on by the Jets wives.

For selling the most tickets, Ian Duncan came out & spent a few hours in practice, running the kids through drills. He was great with the kids & mentioned in our conversations that he was an active member of the Jets PR team, helping out with events going on in the community.

The following year he was demoted to the AHL, despite being selected to the All Rookie team at LW the year prior. My recollection it was immediately out of training camp which surprised many, although I could be wrong & the demotion occurred mid-year.

He had two good years and your right he was demoted after camp in what would have been his third year.. A decent player and good guy that got shafted.

 

[Scheifele55]

I am sorry but, Bob Essensa had a better save percentage in his career than Moog, Fuhr, Ranford, McLean, Vernon. They all had the luxury of playing for very strong winning teams. Bob Essensa's GAA is skewed higher from playing on defensively inept teams in 1990-91 and 1992-93. By 1993-94 his worst year as a Jet the wheels fell off for the team. The backup goalies that year were 0-13-2 (Mike O'Neill and Stephane Beauregard). Bob Essensa IMO was the most underrated goalie of the late 1980's to mid 1990's. The best team he ever played for was the Detroit Red Wings and he got replaced by a 22 year old Chris Osgood. Bob Essensa IMO was so good that if he was playing on a Montreal Canadiens of the mid 1980's team he would have put up numbers comparable to Patrick Roy. Yes, I said it. Bob Essensa on a mediocre Jets was a 3 GAA .895 SV % goalie. If Bryan Hayward on the Jets was a 4GAA .850 Save % goalie that became a SUB 3 GAA sub .890 Save % goalie on the Montreal Canadiens, then I believe Bob Essensa could have been so much better than what he was on a mediocre Jets team.

Yes, the Jets trading Robert Picard for a 3rd round selection ended up being Patrick Roy, however, 3 picks later the Canadiens held that pick and the odds of Winnipeg, Vancouver, or St Louis having Patrick Roy on their radar to select would have been VERY LOW since Montreal had a tendency to favor Quebecers.

 

[Scheifele55]

It's easy to say that now, but were those players ranked higher at the time of the draft?

Michel Goulet I bet my life savings was rated higher than Jimmy Mann. Jimmy Mann was an incredible reach.
Denis Savard taken 3rd overall was rated extremely high and Montrealers wanted him taken 1st overall instead of Doug Wickenheiser.
Jim Kyte was taken because as someone else stated about Furguson, he wanted toughness hence why he took Jimmy Mann. The thing is, if Jim Kyte was Teppo Numminen defensively, I would have been very cool with the pick. A 6'5" tough defensive dman is what Winnipeg would have loved.
Andrew McBain I am assuming had smoothe hands in Junior and was a great playmaker. There is NO WAY anyone would have guessed Cam Neely would have been a 50 goals in 49 games scorer. He wasn't even that proficient in Juniors.
Ryan Stewart was an absolute bust. It is to a degree understandable as he was taken 18th overall the lowest 1st pick the Jets had. It appears that he never took his game to the next level in Juniors after being selected. He played the following year with Pat Elyniuk yet in 16 less games he had 28 less points on the Raiders as a 18 year old. Worse, as a 19 year old he was a barely a point per game player. As a 20 year old scored 5 goals and 18 assists with the Moncton Hawks in 48 games and I think that spelled the end of his career.
Pat Elyniuk in his rookie year was almost a PPG player and was always very talented on the team. Winnipeg screwed up dealing him for 1 good playoff run John Druce. Brian Leetch taken right after was probably a situation where Winnipeg could have taken the best forward in Elyniuk or best dman in Leetch and the scouts really liked Elyniuk.

 

[cheswick]

I always felt that the Jets biggest weakness was goaltending. Hayward was ok. Berthiaume and Reddick were ok. Bob Essensa was ok. We never had the Moog, Fuhr, Ranford dominance. It's a Jets draft pick traded for Robert Picard that gave the Canadiens Patrick Roy. Vernon was usually better, as was Kirk Mc Lean in the 90s. It's why older Jets fans can appreciate the solid goaltending we have now.

Gretzky being Gretzky he's never one to disparage anyone but in an interview Gretzky gave after the Jets came back that's pretty much what he said. That the Jets were competitive with the Oilers except and that the advantage those Oilers teams had was in net.

 

[Fuhrious]

Gretzky being Gretzky he's never one to disparage anyone but in an interview Gretzky gave after the Jets came back that's pretty much what he said. That the Jets were competitive with the Oilers except and that the advantage those Oilers teams had was in net.

Enh, not to quibble with 99 but I dont know if I buy that. Those Oilers teams were stupidly good from top to bottom. The Jets were rocking maybe...a half dozen?...guys that would have even cracked their roster?

 

[voyageur]

@Scheifele55

I like how you did that, but Bob Essensa never had to face Gretzky in his prime. By the time he started playing regularly, firewagon hockey, which was especially prominent in the West, was coming to an end. The 90s brought a more structured game, and definitely more skill, both offensively and defensively, with the influx of Europeans.

If you watch Moog knock out the Canadiens, and Guy Lafleur, in 1981, you get an idea of where he was at. Then watch Doug Soetart highlights from the same era. Fuhr could make the big save, which is what counted. We might have beaten Edmonton in 1990 head to head vs. Ranford, if Essensa wasn't hurt in that series. Wings didn't win until they got Vernon. But as a small goalie he covered so little of the net, that he was beatable.

You'd have a hard time convincing me that Essensa was better than Mc Lean since he never beat him in the playoffs. Or was it Greg Adams the difference? I like Essensa as a goalie, if I could give a summary of his game, it was that he was very good when he was on top of his game, but once he let one in, he seemed more porous.

And as for Roy, we drafted French Canadian goalies just never the right one. Certainly Essensa's numbers would have been better playing in Montreal with Larry Robinson and Chris Chelios, and the best checking line in hockey in front of him, but that's the breaks.

 

[razorsedge]

Michel Goulet I bet my life savings was rated higher than Jimmy Mann. Jimmy Mann was an incredible reach.
Denis Savard taken 3rd overall was rated extremely high and Montrealers wanted him taken 1st overall instead of Doug Wickenheiser.
Jim Kyte was taken because as someone else stated about Furguson, he wanted toughness hence why he took Jimmy Mann. The thing is, if Jim Kyte was Teppo Numminen defensively, I would have been very cool with the pick. A 6'5" tough defensive dman is what Winnipeg would have loved.
Andrew McBain I am assuming had smoothe hands in Junior and was a great playmaker. There is NO WAY anyone would have guessed Cam Neely would have been a 50 goals in 49 games scorer. He wasn't even that proficient in Juniors.
Ryan Stewart was an absolute bust. It is to a degree understandable as he was taken 18th overall the lowest 1st pick the Jets had. It appears that he never took his game to the next level in Juniors after being selected. He played the following year with Pat Elyniuk yet in 16 less games he had 28 less points on the Raiders as a 18 year old. Worse, as a 19 year old he was a barely a point per game player. As a 20 year old scored 5 goals and 18 assists with the Moncton Hawks in 48 games and I think that spelled the end of his career.
Pat Elyniuk in his rookie year was almost a PPG player and was always very talented on the team. Winnipeg screwed up dealing him for 1 good playoff run John Druce. Brian Leetch taken right after was probably a situation where Winnipeg could have taken the best forward in Elyniuk or best dman in Leetch and the scouts really liked Elyniuk.

Wow, I posted that 7 years ago. I guess its never too late for me to say "I stand corrected"? Lol

 

[Required Fields]

What I recall is that he was not a very good player but was put in a position to succeed, score points and did that initially. Then talent caught up to him , or lack thereof.

Actually, in his sophomore season, Duncan had 44 points in 57 games.

In his rookie season, he had 42 points in 62 games. His stats were slightly better in his second season, and he played five fewer games. If he played all 80 games, he'd have just over 60 points.

I'd imagine Jets fans were pretty shocked that he became a career minor leaguer after his sophomore season.

 

[Dale53130]

Ferguson focused too much on toughness, as that was his role as a player. He made some bad trades, but he made some good moves too. The Babych trade got criticized the most, but I thought we adequately replaced Babych with Dave Ellett. The Carlyle trade was probably made to get some more experience defensemen after Serge Savard retired. We probably would have been better off with Bodger and Mantha, as Carlyle was never a force here, but was steadier defensively than Babych, in my opinion. Fergie was a big reason for the Jets getting into the NHL, as he had ties to the Molsons, who were pivotal in getting us accepted in the NHL, after first rejecting us.

I always felt that the Jets biggest weakness was goaltending. Hayward was ok. Berthiaume and Reddick were ok. Bob Essensa was ok. We never had the Moog, Fuhr, Ranford dominance. It's a Jets draft pick traded for Robert Picard that gave the Canadiens Patrick Roy. Vernon was usually better, as was Kirk Mc Lean in the 90s. It's why older Jets fans can appreciate the solid goaltending we have now.

This always bothers me about Babych's time with the Jets. He had Serge Savard for the first two years of his career, to work with. Can you pick a better guy to help develop a stud prospect?

If Babych developed his defensive game, like he (seemingly) started to figure out once he got to Vancouver, and you combine that with his early offensive prowess, he's probably weighted closer to being a Scott Stevens-type; who also wasn't very good defensively ealier on his career and figured it out around the time he arrived in St. Louis. They both had similar starts to their careers, but Stevens REALLY figured out how to be an All-World defensive guy.

Essensa was every bit as good as Kirk McLean in from '89-92. I thought Essensa was better than McLean in 1991-92, with great consideration to who was playing in front of him. I hate those Canucks' teams; way to go Ron Caron!

If Duncan was that good, then he certainly could have done it with another team. His AHL stats are okay for the era.