The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[Sorinth]

There appears to be zero accountability for the players. That’s completely on the coach, irrespective of the quality of the team on the ice. MSL appears to have not yet fully transitioned from player to coach. Say what you want about Torts but he holds players accountable. MSL does not. That’s not a good thing.

On the flip side for decades we've had coaches who would bench our young guys for the slightest mistakes and as a result development often stalled with them. If Therrien was coach Hutson would be getting a max of 10min a game because he takes risks that would drive Therrien nuts.

There's a balance to be found, and it's certainly possible that MSL is too forgiving/lenient going to the other extreme is worse. But I would point out there has been benchings, bag skates, etc... so zero accountability is an exaggeration. On top of which we have to guess the reasons for certain decisions and it's clouded by our biases. For example, Hutson on PP1 could easily be a case of holding Matheson more accountable by taking away prime ice time, but it also could be rewarding Hutson. Unless we are privy to the discussions there's no way to know but I have little doubt that those who have this idea in their head that MSL doesn't hold anyone accountable will always dismiss the first reason.

And finally it's worth noting that last year the complaints about accountability were often directed at his handling of Gallagher and Anderson. This year both guys have been playing very well, so it seems like his approach did work.

 

[habbubba]

Finally – a reasonable answer!

And I'll be thinking of you persevering with a full plate come January. Although it will have to be from Grand Cayman while frolicking in a banana hammock in the sun and surf while drinking exotic tropical cocktails as if they are some sort of rejuvenating tonic, much to the embarrassment and dismay of my better half's disapproval. lol

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

There's way too many question marks/concerns with this management already when there's pretty much 0 expectations.

Whomever Molson keeps putting in charge to look for the next GM and whatnot seems to suck.

I hope in 5 years this is getting quoted and I'm getting clowned upon for questioning the current management, but I'm doubting that hard.

It's kind of sad when I've gotten more crow ready and it's cold.

In no particular order.

Habs shouldn't have traded for Newhook - so far right

Habs should trade Matheson - he's showing his suck even more and his points are dipping a bit, so far right.

Habs shouldn't trade for Laine because he's hurt. Half right, but his first few games have been productive on the PP. Pending

This prospect pool is overrated. Trending towards me being right with so many damn prospects doing nothing.
This one ties in with the above, but the Habs likely need a new scouting staff.

I'm hoping I'm just salty with this past draft.

Demidov, great, no-brainer pick.

Hage liked that(I wanted Greentree, but Hage is doing well)

The rest of the picks ? They're OK, or baaaaaaad.

How do you have 8 picks and can't land one that makes you go "damn, that's a nice season that player is having"

You have Protz, Thorpe and Sawyer that are doing ok/acceptable.

Hell, looking at the 2023 draft I'm thinking that's pretty disappointing already.

Reinbacher is hurt and can't defend his selection with his play, so he's neutral.

Fowler is playing well. A bit cautious because he plays on such a good team

Florian might eventually be a 4th liner.

Harris has cooled off.

Bogdan seems like he'd be a solid KHLer, but nothing much in North America.

Beck and Hutson are looking gooooooood.

Engstrom is very intriguing.

Mesar started off strong, but got hurt.

2022 at least looks like the Habs should get some players.

But man, the last 2 drafts... watching them and getting updates... there's not a whole lot to like.

Pro scouting seems weak.

They f***ed around last year with 3 goalies and now we have Primeau who can't save shit, but the team was worried about losing him on waivers.

Habs now have 2 d in Struble and Barron who keep lowering their value.

Habs have Pezzetta just sitting there because they don't want to lose him on waivers, but won't trade him and won't play him. Not that his value was high at all.

The Habs CLEARLY needed to add some size and skill. Skill would have been nice, but it's not easy and cheap. The size aspect was available in a bunch of players and they acquired.... None. Ziltch. Nada. Rien.

Pretty much every young player in the A started off strong and has regressed except for Beck and they did a bit, buy not as much, Davidson and Engstrom.

I was ready to give Dobes the back to job next year, but now I have doubts.

If I were Molson I'd give it until January 1st 2026 and then I'd start getting rid of people if things are still the same.

2024 might have just been a draft where the scouting staff just really shit the bed. Maybe the pre-season really threw everything off. Maybe Slaf will give a f*** again. Maybe Newhook will bring something to the team. Maybe with some of the shitty vets gone, better free agents will come in and help.


Let's hope things go better because the potential level of incompetence followed by what is perceived, at this point in time to be budding incompetence is such a piss off..

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

This prospect pool is overrated. Trending towards me being right with so many damn prospects doing nothing.
This one ties in with the above, but the Habs likely need a new scouting staff.

This is where all logic flies out the window. Not only is it recency bias, it's a complete exageration and you finish it off with a non-sequitur.

Only players drafted (by the scouts you want to fire) who have joined the team are Slaf and Hutson. Slaf partly broke out last season and he's already pacing better than he did at the same point last season. As for Hutson, he's a bonafide success.

Reinbacher? Did great in his first stint with the Rocket, looked very promising. He got injured. It's pure hasard.

Beck, doing great in the AHL.

Hage, doing better than Caufiled did at the same age as a freshman.

Fowler is dominating the NCAA.

Demidov, we all know he'll be great.

Sooo... we need a new scouting staff because Mesar might be a bust and because our appraisal of Reinbacher needs to wait?? Makes no sense. Should we fire them for having not drafted the plethora or mediocre prospects from former management?

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

This is where all logic flies out the window. Not only is it recency bias, it's a complete exageration and you finish it off with a non-sequitur.

Only players drafted (by the scouts you want to fire) who have joined the team are Slaf and Hutson. Slaf partly broke out last season and he's already pacing better than he did at the same point last season. As for Hutson, he's a bonafide success.

Reinbacher? Did great in his first stint with the Rocket, looked very promising. He got injured. It's pure hasard.

Beck, doing great in the AHL.

Hage, doing better than Caufiled did at the same age as a freshman.

Fowler is dominating the NCAA.

Demidov, we all know he'll be great.

Sooo... we need a new scouting staff because Mesar might be a bust and because our appraisal of Reinbacher needs to wait?? Makes no sense. Should we fire them for having not drafted the plethora or mediocre prospects from former management?

You literally didn't read anything else.

Found a point, attacked it and you're already missing the grand point, but I'll enlighten you.


1) Demidov was a given pick and everyone and their grandma would take him there.

2) Hutson isn't really considered in the prospect pool as he's playing, but if you bothered to read you'd see his inclusion.

3) Mentioned Reinbacher, he looked good, if you bothered to continue reading you'd see his inclusions.

4) Gave Hage props, but mentioned I was more on the Liam Greentree spot at that time.

5) Mentioned Fowler and also mentioned that he plays on a really good team, too.

6) Mentioned Beck

7) I actually gave props to Mesar and how he started off well and them got hurt.


My issue is, if you bothered to keep reading is that the Habs are doing bad outside of the first 2 rounds.

Obviously you're not going to have consistent, contributing NHLers after you've been around for 3 drafts now.

No, the issue is so many of them f***ing suck in the leagues they're in.

Again, if you bothered to keep reading instead of looking for a point to get upset about you'd see how I mentioned the Habs had 8 picks after their 2 1st round picks.

You're very unlikely to see studs in those rounds spring out immediately, but just look at it. Sawyer, Thorpe and Protz are doing ok and the rest are very meh. How do you draft so many players that stagnate already ?

Jacob Fowler that you mentioned that was fought for by Billy Ryan is the same scout who suggested to draft Ben Merrill who's playing in the BCHL that's losing talent and is a good league, but not that good and he's struggling hard in it.

Outside the first round you could honestly be seeing much better results if all you did was stat watch.

At least that way your 4th round pick might be worth a 3rd in a trade the next offseason if you're looking to improve your team with a vet, or get some young, established talent that's looking to change scenery, or wants out. Does that 2nd part sound like a team ? Possibly the Habs?

What's Ben Merrill going to do struggling hard in the BCHL ? How about whomever suggested to draft that Latvian goalie ?

How's Rasmus Bergqvist doing ? I believe he got invited to Sweden's U-20 camp, so maybe he joins the list and increase his pick round value.

What about the Habs Makar ?


Drafting 10 players you're almost certainly going to get 1, or 2 that you just know are duds early, but the Habs are looking at likely 4 players that are already. That's f***ing pathetic.

Going off thedailyfaceoff the Habs were ranked 2nd. I'd take Anaheim and Minnesota's over the Habs.

Take the top prospect off from each and you see how even worse the Habs prospect pool looks.

Carolina has a lot of solid prospects, but can't tell if anywhere will surprise and be really good, or potentially Demigod status.

I further mentioned the 2022 draft might be a real nice one, but them brought up how the 2023 draft is looking underwhelming.

Thr Habs need to do way better with their depth selections than what they're doing.

 

[Habby4Life]

You can than Montreal for Roy. No idea why they brought him back up and played him on the bottom six.

Cause he’s slow, soft, and frankly not that good.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You literally didn't read anything else.

Found a point, attacked it and you're already missing the grand point, but I'll enlighten you.


1) Demidov was a given pick and everyone and their grandma would take him there.

2) Hutson isn't really considered in the prospect pool as he's playing, but if you bothered to read you'd see his inclusion.

3) Mentioned Reinbacher, he looked good, if you bothered to continue reading you'd see his inclusions.

4) Gave Hage props, but mentioned I was more on the Liam Greentree spot at that time.

5) Mentioned Fowler and also mentioned that he plays on a really good team, too.

6) Mentioned Beck

7) I actually gave props to Mesar and how he started off well and them got hurt.


My issue is, if you bothered to keep reading is that the Habs are doing bad outside of the first 2 rounds.

Obviously you're not going to have consistent, contributing NHLers after you've been around for 3 drafts now.

No, the issue is so many of them f***ing suck in the leagues they're in.

Again, if you bothered to keep reading instead of looking for a point to get upset about you'd see how I mentioned the Habs had 8 picks after their 2 1st round picks.

You're very unlikely to see studs in those rounds spring out immediately, but just look at it. Sawyer, Thorpe and Protz are doing ok and the rest are very meh. How do you draft so many players that stagnate already ?

Jacob Fowler that you mentioned that was fought for by Billy Ryan is the same scout who suggested to draft Ben Merrill who's playing in the BCHL that's losing talent and is a good league, but not that good and he's struggling hard in it.

Outside the first round you could honestly be seeing much better results if all you did was stat watch.

At least that way your 4th round pick might be worth a 3rd in a trade the next offseason if you're looking to improve your team with a vet, or get some young, established talent that's looking to change scenery, or wants out. Does that 2nd part sound like a team ? Possibly the Habs?

What's Ben Merrill going to do struggling hard in the BCHL ? How about whomever suggested to draft that Latvian goalie ?

How's Rasmus Bergqvist doing ? I believe he got invited to Sweden's U-20 camp, so maybe he joins the list and increase his pick round value.

What about the Habs Makar ?


Drafting 10 players you're almost certainly going to get 1, or 2 that you just know are duds early, but the Habs are looking at likely 4 players that are already. That's f***ing pathetic.

Going off thedailyfaceoff the Habs were ranked 2nd. I'd take Anaheim and Minnesota's over the Habs.

Take the top prospect off from each and you see how even worse the Habs prospect pool looks.

Carolina has a lot of solid prospects, but can't tell if anywhere will surprise and be really good, or potentially Demigod status.

I further mentioned the 2022 draft might be a real nice one, but them brought up how the 2023 draft is looking underwhelming.

Thr Habs need to do way better with their depth selections than what they're doing.

Prospects drafted outside the first two rounds are going to take a while to develop aren't they? Hugo have only been here three years. How can we really know anything about the players we've drafted in the later rounds? It's not soon enough to know anything. Hutson was 62nd three years ago and even he's only joining now.

 

[digmor crusher]

My thoughts, and my thoughts are usually right:

- Montembault is not a 1A goalie, a 1B maybe.

- Primeau is not a NHL goalie.

- Someone needs to tell Slavkosky to play a north/south aggressive game, move his feet, keep both hands on his stick and shoot the puck.

- Dach, he of 35 career goals, is probably a bust.

- We can trade Savard, we can trade Matheson but we cannot trade them both unless we want to be even worse then we are now.

- Newhook is a 3rd line player if we want to build a offensive 3rd line (we shouldn't), if we want to build a 3rd line grinding line like Winnipeg( please) has then he needs to be traded.

- St. Louis is a filler coach until we find the one who can bring us success.

-Baron is too soft, we need to trade him.

- 50/50 Roy is a successful NHL player.

-

 

[Draft]

Slafkovsky-Suzuki-Laine
Caufield-XXXX-Demidov
Newhook-XXXX-Dach
(Hage, Beck, Kapanen)

Hutson-XXXX
Guhle-XXXX
(Reinbacher, Engstrom, Mailloux)


At this point in the rebuild, it would have been nice to have our centers and RD already in place. There’s nothing Hughes/Gorton can do about the injuries to Dach and Reinbacher, but I think this speaks to the need for more redundancy in these areas. I think we pick up a RD via trade or UFA so I’m focusing on centers.

IMO, Suzuki is more of a 1B than a truly elite center. Ideally, we find someone at his level with a complementary playing style. I’m not interested in 2Cs or older players as I’d like to compete long term and I don’t think we can do that with guys like Nelson/Trochek/Norris/etc.

It’s rumoured that McTavish or Cozens could be available, but they wouldn’t come cheap and we haven’t had much success with struggling young players. Established, elite centers are typically only available in unique circumstances and the cost to acquire them is prohibitive. I don’t see any viable options to acquire an elite center via trade and we’re not every UFA’s cup of tea. Rantanen and Laine are good friends but I doubt that’s enough to make him sign here.

I see our in-house options for center as:

1) Put ourselves in a position to pick Misa/Hagens.

- The tanking is happening naturally but we may need to secure a higher pick on draft day. This is fairly low risk but requires some luck. The downside is that both are likely another year away from NHL hockey. I’m not sure if Hagens fits what I’d be looking for in a C to complement Suzuki and there’s speculation Misa ends up at wing. Fairly good, mostly safe option that could produce an elite player.

2) Convert Laine to C.

- There were decent results in CLB, allegedly. I’m not against it but I’m unsure this is much of an option long term given his contract and average defensive play. Hard to know what we have with him. An elite winger probably, but maybe not an elite center as I’m unsure whether his skillset really works down the middle. I’d be open to giving it a try once he’s found his legs - might be a bridging option while we wait for prospects to develop.

3) Convert Demidov to C.

- He has experience there and has previously spoken to his preference to play C. It’s a big ask for a rookie to convert positions, but if any Habs prospect of the last 30yrs could do it, it’s Demidov. There’s precedent with guys like Kuznetsov, Aho, Giroux, Zetterberg playing wing and moving to center. His playmaking, attention to detail at both ends, transition/puck carrying skill, and lateral mobility are great tools. I’d reassess once he arrives in NA but I’m open to it. This is a long term, low risk, low cost option that could yield an elite offensive C capable of playing on a top line. Go kick rocks if you’re going to compare him to Drouin.

4) Hope for Hage, Beck, Dach, or Kapanen to fill the role.

- Boring, could take a while, highly doubt any of them fill that role next year. No risk but I have low confidence any of these options become first line players.


Any preferences? Additional options?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Slafkovsky-Suzuki-Laine
Caufield-XXXX-Demidov
Newhook-XXXX-Dach
(Hage, Beck, Kapanen)

Hutson-XXXX
Guhle-XXXX
(Reinbacher, Engstrom, Mailloux)


At this point in the rebuild, it would have been nice to have our centers and RD already in place. There’s nothing Hughes/Gorton can do about the injuries to Dach and Reinbacher, but I think this speaks to the need for more redundancy in these areas. I think we pick up a RD via trade or UFA so I’m focusing on centers.

IMO, Suzuki is more of a 1B than a truly elite center. Ideally, we find someone at his level with a complementary playing style. I’m not interested in 2Cs or older players as I’d like to compete long term and I don’t think we can do that with guys like Nelson/Trochek/Norris/etc.

It’s rumoured that McTavish or Cozens could be available, but they wouldn’t come cheap and we haven’t had much success with struggling young players. Established, elite centers are typically only available in unique circumstances and the cost to acquire them is prohibitive. I don’t see any viable options to acquire an elite center via trade and we’re not every UFA’s cup of tea. Rantanen and Laine are good friends but I doubt that’s enough to make him sign here.

I see our in-house options for center as:

1) Put ourselves in a position to pick Misa/Hagens.

- The tanking is happening naturally but we may need to secure a higher pick on draft day. This is fairly low risk but requires some luck. The downside is that both are likely another year away from NHL hockey. I’m not sure if Hagens fits what I’d be looking for in a C to complement Suzuki and there’s speculation Misa ends up at wing. Fairly good, mostly safe option that could produce an elite player.

2) Convert Laine to C.

- There were decent results in CLB, allegedly. I’m not against it but I’m unsure this is much of an option long term given his contract and average defensive play. Hard to know what we have with him. An elite winger probably, but maybe not an elite center as I’m unsure whether his skillset really works down the middle. I’d be open to giving it a try once he’s found his legs - might be a bridging option while we wait for prospects to develop.

3) Convert Demidov to C.

- He has experience there and has previously spoken to his preference to play C. It’s a big ask for a rookie to convert positions, but if any Habs prospect of the last 30yrs could do it, it’s Demidov. There’s precedent with guys like Kuznetsov, Aho, Giroux, Zetterberg playing wing and moving to center. His playmaking, attention to detail at both ends, transition/puck carrying skill, and lateral mobility are great tools. I’d reassess once he arrives in NA but I’m open to it. This is a long term, low risk, low cost option that could yield an elite offensive C capable of playing on a top line. Go kick rocks if you’re going to compare him to Drouin.

4) Hope for Hage, Beck, Dach, or Kapanen to fill the role.

- Boring, could take a while, highly doubt any of them fill that role next year. No risk but I have low confidence any of these options become first line players.


Any preferences? Additional options?

If Demidov can play center it solves a lot of problems.

I think our biggest need is a solid RD who can come in and eat some minutes while the younger players develop.

 

[Andy]

Suzuki
Caufield
Roy
Kapanen
Ylonen
Poehling
Guhle
Romanov
Harris
Struble
Xhekaj
Mailloux

This is essentially the under 25 nhl talent in the habs pool when HuGo took over (with benefit of hindsight). I do not think many of you realize how much work and how many gaps have needed to be filled since they decided to rebuild. I mean, look at that list. It's not impressive at all. I mean it's quite shit.

And then we have to realize just how many bloated contracts were on this club: Drouin, Hoffman, Edmundson, Armia, Gallagher, Dvorak, Anderson, Petry, Chiarot, Byron, Price & Weber contracts.

This rebuild was always going to take a long time.

 

[dcyhabs]

IMO the problems with using the term "asset base" to discuss a hockey team is that at some point you get far too abstract and miss the forest for the trees. I'm guilty of this too when obsessing with stats and trends (thankfully not "advanced stats").

It's sports: most of the discussions should be around the act of performing the sport and who is best fit for what role and if a certain player should do X or Y to bring us more success.

Even a rebuild is about building a team, the team is composed of players, the players (if they're young) will be on upward trajectories. That's where I get caught up on the current season... they seem to be on the verge of beginning to turn the corner but until recently the performances of the players was extremely disappointing to me.

When the time comes to trade and make decisions about cap allocation, it'll be centred on what the GM thinks will improve the team as he sees it at that time. This is what bewildered me about Bergevin, he said centremen were not available... they were, they were just too expensive for his tastes... but what was the alternative? He figured squandering playoff runs by relying on Desharnais-Plekanec was better than trading first round picks for centremen and top6 players. It was an absurd miscalculation.

The team has been up and down. The players are young, and they tend to lose structure when they get down a goal or two. I prefet the inconsistency, good games and bad games, to consistent so so games.

The team definitely needs some corrections. They are way short of rhd, goaltending is iffy, and they are short a few forwards.

Demidov and Beck should fill some of the forward holes. They need some defensive forwards, but that’s not a high value role, so they can probably get it. There are some goalies in the system, and Reinbacher may get back on track.

A lot will depend on the next top draft pick. If they get a high pick and a solid player they may be able to exit the rebuild. More likely they still won’t have all the spots filled once they jettison the older FAs, and it will be another year or two of bad teams and high picks.

The biggest problem is not having a true #1D. The habs haven’t been in that situation in a long time. They need to throw a lot of draft picks at the problem. Not top 10 picks, unless there is a clear fit, but lots of later picks going for upside.

Lots of teambuilding still to go.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Suzuki
Caufield
Roy
Kapanen
Ylonen
Poehling
Guhle
Romanov
Harris
Struble
Xhekaj
Mailloux

This was the 25 and under talent in the habs pool when HuGo took over. I do not think many of you realize how much work and how many gaps have needed to be filled since they decided to rebuild. I mean, look at that list. It's not impressive at all. I mean it's quite shit.

And then we have to realize just how many bloated contracts were on this club: Drouin, Hoffman, Edmundson, Armia, Gallagher, Dvorak, Anderson, Petry, Chiarot, Byron, Price & Weber contracts.

This rebuild was always going to take a long time.

People just think that progression for teams and players is just a straight line pointing upward.

This is a more accurate representation of what progression looks like.. there's dips, there's peaks, there's times where you reach a height in performance and then crater hard before taking small incremental steps back up.

I used to get frustrated a lot when practicing drumming or hockey, I'd spend all these hours doing exercises, practicing, watching videos, talking with other people, getting coached.. and one day you'd get on the kit and it would be like you couldn't play a f***ing AC/DC beat. You'd languish for a bit and then you'd come out and everything clicks, then you are rocking Ticks and Leeches and hitting every ghost note.

 

[ReHabs]

The biggest problem is not having a true #1D.

Yeah that was my observation recently too. Very hard to get. Maybe Noah Dobson could be available if the Isles blow it up.

 

[Be a Hab]

Demidov, Hutson and Fowler, to me, are our untouchables.

 

[Jurivan Demidovsky]

Demidov, Hutson and Fowler, to me, are our untouchables.

4 years down the road, ready for DA Cup

Caufield - Suzuki - Demidov
Slafkovsky - Hage - Laine
******** - Beck - ********
******** - Xhekaj - ********

Hutson - Reinbacher
Ghule - Mailloux
Xhekaj - ********

Fowler
Dobes

 

[dcyhabs]

Yeah that was my observation recently too. Very hard to get. Maybe Noah Dobson could be available if the Isles blow it up.

The habs definitely have to look into any elite player available because giving up a collection of non-elite players for an elite player can massively improve a team. On the flip side the habs don't have much to give up beyond draft picks that are likely to be high enough that they should not be given up. They are still 2 years away, I'd go with drafting a lot of D in the top 3 rounds, while going with the consensus pick in top half of the first round. Pick as many D as you can with elite aspects and try to help them work on their flaws.

Hutson and Guhle are good, but they are fairly one dimensional. Guhle might have been more with longer development or if he finds a bit more physicality and offence, but it looks unlikely now. Mailloux is closer to a bust than a #1 by now. Reinbacher is looking iffy. It's not a great situation, but if Demidov, Hage, and Beck do well they may have enough good forwards to support a weaker defence. I don't think it's time to start moving problems around, though, and trying to make a "hockey trade" where you get a similar player at a different position is a really good way to take on a worse player.

 

[The Last Red]

Demidov, Hutson and Fowler, to me, are our untouchables.

There are no untouchables.