The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[ReHabs]

You were quick to jump to the conclusion that Slaf was off track, wasn't developing, and that it was a serious problem with the pick and management and that you were justified to criticize him rather then be patient with him. You are doing the same with Dach & Newhook, yes they are having unproductive seasons, but like with Slaf's rookie year, an unproductive year doesn't automatically equate to being off track, or not developing, nor should you dismiss calls for being patient with young guys because it's perfectly normal for young guys to struggle. The ones who succeed go through those struggles and in time figure things out and emerge, the ones who bust go through those struggles and don't eventually figure it out. But either way we should be patient and give them the time they need to figure things out.

The catch-all term “Young players” (as in: "be patient and don't complain, they're young players") is meaningless if you think a rookie from Slovakia (intl ice + language barrer) and a Canadian D+5 NHL veteran and Stanley Cup Winner are identical. If you have such low expectations of NHL players, that’s perfectly fine and your perspective to hold in whatever discussions that arise.

My point is simply saying “patience.” and demanding silence is not going to work in this case. Fans have a variety of expectations and prior impressions. Alex Newhook in his 4th full NHL season should not be on pace for a 4th liner's output with 14min a night. There are plenty of valid discussions to be had about his performance and production.

As for Dach, I hope it's his post-injury that's in the way of his performance but he doesn't look good or engaged at all. Demanding "patience." doesn't change the fact he doesn't look good and it directly affects our team's performance.

If either of Newhook or Dach had a history of production, a body of work, we would have an entirely different discussion but chasing after unproven potential that looks as far as it ever has... is like chasing a shadow and demanding the rest of us to also chase the shadow. Nah, not going to happen.

 

[yianik]

There is no chance a team can draft all of key pieces such as 2C, first pairing D, #1G followed by a 3C and 1 scoring W with 1 2nd pair Dman and also wait for them to develop.
Right now on the roster, they have Suzuki, Caulfield, Slaf, and Guhle to hang your hat on. Hutson improving to be their main offensive D. But, this is 1 C, 2 W, 2 D.

You need to go and acquire a couple of those pieces via free agency (but at their stage now, hard to convince guys to take that leap of faith), or you make a trade for those pieces.

Waiting for Fowler to be your #1 goalie, he's doing his SO year at BC right now. He will need time in the AHL to carry the load and some time as a backup in the NHL.

Agreed. What you have to do is draft well and hope you have redundancies so you can make trades, or pick off a UFA or two. Maybe you move Reinbacher to a just starting to rebuild team to get an older RHD that can step in now and be a big presence for the next 4-5 years in the top pair , as an example.

 

[LaP]

What’s this “they will be good in 26-27” BS in this thread? That’s completely fabricated; all we know is habs suck and we can hope the guys they drafted are even able to play in the nhl somewhere down the line, never mind being good. Everything is yet to manifest, including with 90% of the hab current roster players. It’s all hope and no results; there is no magic 2026 switch.

Will be watching Laval with interest..

I'm not sure why this is relevant though. I mean this is true of most things in life. This is true of the stock market. This is true of a first date. True of hiring a new employee. Most things in life are based on potential of something to be rather that something that already is. Should we stop doing anything because nothing is certain? I mean this is a "state of the rebuild" thread if there was certainty then the rebuild would be over and tjhis tgreade closed. People here are talking about potentiel and they should not have to specify this every goddam posts honestly. The reality is Slaf is a very good prospect people can spin this as much as they want what he did last year doesn't happen that often. Demidov is a good prospect. Mailloux, Beck and Roy are having very good season in the AHL for 20-21 years old players. Nothing is certain some of them will bust but that should not prevent people to talk about their potential and realistically we have a good prospects pool and some guys around here are overly negative about things.

 

[Sorinth]

There are plenty of valid discussions to be had about his performance and production.

If you did a deep dive analysis of why Newhook or Dach's production is way down this year compared to last year or even the years before then I must have missed it, but yes it certainly would be a something worthy of discussion and debate. But if your idea of a valid discussion is as shallow as saying they suck and are playing bad, then it shouldn't be surprising that you get equally shallow responses.

 

[ReHabs]

If you did a deep dive analysis of why Newhook or Dach's production is way down this year compared to last year or even the years before then I must have missed it, but yes it certainly would be a something worthy of discussion and debate. But if your idea of a valid discussion is as shallow as saying they suck and are playing bad, then it shouldn't be surprising that you get equally shallow responses.

There are plenty of ways to engage with this topic, not everything needs a deep dive. Readers here don't like deep dives anyway.

My initial comment in this vein was simply to say there are many cases of fans (and teams) chasing after a player's promise/potential. Such a statement doesn't need a deep dive because it's simply true. Habs fans especially should know.

 

[Sorinth]

There are plenty of ways to engage with this topic, not everything needs a deep dive. Readers here don't like deep dives anyway.

My initial comment in this vein was simply to say there are many cases of fans (and teams) chasing after a player's promise/potential. Such a statement doesn't need a deep dive because it's simply true. Habs fans especially should know.

Yes but how you engage will impact the responses you get. If your engagement is shallow, and indistinguishable from complaining for the sake of complaining then you'll get the response you got.

And a statement that Hab fans are impatient and love to complain over nothing is also something that is simply true and we all know.

 

[ReHabs]

And a statement that Hab fans are impatient and love to complain over nothing is also something that is simply true and we all know.

Newhook is on pace for 21 pts.
Dach is on pace for 36 pts.
The Habs are dead last in the division.

In case you haven’t kept up.

 

[JianYang]

Damn, how great would it be to pick up Hagens/Malone/Misa this year.. the final piece to our top 6.
Stop crying guys - we arent moving up. We are not going to be anything more than a bottom feeder this year..

We have yet to fill our top 6 with "true" game changers.. right now the only top 6 we have are:
CC - suzuki - Slaf - Laine - Demidov.
Bubble: Dach (only as wing)

Outside the above players, nobody in our roster even comes close to an NHL top 6.

We also have complete, absolute garbage for a bottom 6:
Dvo- Andy- newhook- Gally- pez. They need to go, like yesterday..

Bottom 6 value:
Roy- Evans- Beck- Hage- Heinmann- Xhekaj- Xhekaj- Tuch.

Bottom 6 garbage: Mesar- kidney- trudeau. These guys are AHLers at best.. Mesar might have trade value for a 3rd rounder..

I'm not really looking at the standings. I'm more focused on whether the team can show some development over the course of the year in terms of play without the puck. Too many times, it looks like a complete clown show. I understand our horses are not great, but there's a difference between making mistakes due to a lack of horses and making mistakes due to overall confusion and sometimes lack of effort.

I can deal with mistakes because of a lack of horses, but eventually, you at least have to see some stretches this year where they are improving on the latter, and that will be on the coaches and players alike.

The organization already emphasizes skill so I'm not too concerned that they will eventually get there, or at least take the proper steps to get there from a talent standpoint but the jury is out on a team defense standpoint.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

I've been thinking about this lately and it is totally fair to say that a regression year can be seen as the expectation or norm for a rebuilding team, especially a team with such a young D.

What I will say though - while not cause for major concern yet, it does prove that the rebuild moves have not been flawless so far, and the moves we made to accelerate the rebuild have not panned out yet - we've received very little value from Dach, Newhook, Barron, and Laine (not his fault).

We will need some of these guys to really step it up in order for the rebuild to be on the right track. If we can acknowledge this, I think most of us can find a pretty mutual common ground with where we are at in the rebuild.

I have already resigned myself to another tank year but I'll keep cheering for wins where we can get them because they are such a rare occurrence these days.

 

[teamfirst]

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
- Jeff Lebowski

Agree

 

[teamfirst]

Newhook is on pace for 21 pts.
Dach is on pace for 36 pts.
The Habs are dead last in the division.

In case you haven’t kept up.

Can't bring such facts in here, you are being overly negative sir..

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Similarly, it’s fine to argue that you don’t want a rebuild. But when you say that rebuilds don’t work, it’s just factually wrong.

Rebuilding isn’t a guarantee- but nothing is. The vast majority of cup winners are rebuilds. That doesn’t mean that if you rebuild you’ll win a cup though.

'Rebuilds work' or 'Rebuilds don't work' started losing all its meaning - at least on here - when people here started naming just about any damn team that ever picked high without looking at what they actually did. And when that was pointed out you'd get some variation of 'who cares! They drafted high!' which is ridiculous and makes the entire argument completely meaningless because just about every team's picked high post-lockout.

 

[LaP]

Can't bring such facts in here, you are being overly negative sir..

You can. But there's a difference between saying Andam Fantalli is on pace for 38 points and Adam Fantalli is a bust 100% confirmed. The problem is people keep busting players under the age of 23. You don't like those players and you don't like KH fine. I've got no problem with that. But i've got a problem with busting players under the age of 23.

 

[Sorinth]

Newhook is on pace for 21 pts.
Dach is on pace for 36 pts.
The Habs are dead last in the division.

In case you haven’t kept up.

Are you actually going to argue that Hab fans aren't impatient and don't love to complain?

 

[junyab]

We could win a cup and some guys in here would still be complaining.

 

[teamfirst]

You can. But there's a difference between saying Andam Fantalli is on pace for 38 points and Adam Fantalli is a bust 100% confirmed. The problem is people keep busting players under the age of 23. You don't like those players and you don't like KH fine. I've got no problem with that. But i've got a problem with busting players under the age of 23.

Sure, bust is a word i personnaly would never use

Are you actually going to argue that Hab fans aren't impatient and don't love to complain?

Are you actually saying that only Hab's fan are like that, cause all i see in this world is impatience and complaint

 

[Sorinth]

Are you actually saying that only Hab's fan are like that, cause all i see in this world is impatience and complaint

No it's not something unique to the Habs

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

'Rebuilds work' or 'Rebuilds don't work' started losing all its meaning - at least on here - when people here started naming just about any damn team that ever picked high without looking at what they actually did. And when that was pointed out you'd get some variation of 'who cares! They drafted high!' which is ridiculous and makes the entire argument completely meaningless because just about every team's picked high post-lockout.

So... Chicago wasn't a rebuild? Pittsburgh? Washington? Colorado? LA?

And yeah, drafting high works. Some teams need to draft high longer than other but at the end of the day, it's almost always a high pick who is among those leading the way to a cup. Towes, Kane, Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Mackinnon, Makaar, Doughty, Stamkos, Hedman...

Non rebuilding cup winners are the exception. St Louis is a good example. It happens but it's almost always a team who's rebuilt through the draft with high picks.

That of course doesn't mean if you rebuild you'll automatically (or immediately) win a cup. Look at Tampa. That was a successful rebuild and it took them a long time to put it together. 3 top five picks in six years and another two top tens. But they didn't win a cup until ten years later. And there are of course stories of rebuilds that went sideways.

That can happen here. Injuries have already messed up our progress. We'd be a lot further ahead without them but... that's the luck of the draw. It doesn't mean you abandon the plan.

Moreover, you don't write off players after a bad start to the season. Some people have the patience of a squirrel... you have to see things through. And again - doesn't mean it will pan out. Kirby Dach may never become the player we hoped, but let's give him more the twenty games after a devastating injury to show us. If he doesn't make it... that sucks. But it's not the end of the world. We're packed with young talent and most of it isn't even here yet.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Newhook is on pace for 21 pts.
Dach is on pace for 36 pts.
The Habs are dead last in the division.

In case you haven’t kept up.

Yeah, I remember you doing this for Slaf too.

How'd that work out?

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

We could win a cup and some guys in here would still be complaining.

Winning the cup, dead last in the league, same thing really

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Can't bring such facts in here, you are being overly negative sir..

You can bring in whatever facts you want. They aren't playing well... nobody disagrees. But that goes for pretty much the whole team. So is it the players? The team or a combo of both?

Rebuilding clubs rarely go from zero to hero right away. This is a rougher start than most expected. And maybe it's how the year will end up. Maybe those players won't work out and we'll have to move on. But to sit there and concern troll over things right now is silly.

Those players have shown they've got talent. They (and the rest of the club) have shown they're capable of better hockey. Sitting there saying that people are silly for being patient is silly itself. We're not even at the quarter season mark. Let's at least give it some time.

It doesn't mean we're married to those players or have to stick with them past this year. But let's at least give them the year before we start saying that it's not productive to show patience towards struggling players.

 

[teamfirst]

What is really funny is seeing people complaining about people complaining

But to sit there and concern troll over things right now is silly.

What does that even mean

 

[Naslundforever]

I'm not sure why this is relevant though. I mean this is true of most things in life. This is true of the stock market. This is true of a first date. True of hiring a new employee. Most things in life are based on potential of something to be rather that something that already is. Should we stop doing anything because nothing is certain? I mean this is a "state of the rebuild" thread if there was certainty then the rebuild would be over and tjhis tgreade closed. People here are talking about potentiel and they should not have to specify this every goddam posts honestly. The reality is Slaf is a very good prospect people can spin this as much as they want what he did last year doesn't happen that often. Demidov is a good prospect. Mailloux, Beck and Roy are having very good season in the AHL for 20-21 years old players. Nothing is certain some of them will bust but that should not prevent people to talk about their potential and realistically we have a good prospects pool and some guys around here are overly negative about things.

I don’t disagree; I do think the org is in a better place than 2 years ago with contracts and prospects. For some reason I landed on a few pages ago to consecutive Nostradamus posts about how 25-26 habs will suddenly be good. “State” of the rebuild for me is their current standing as the worse team in the nhl + a crap shoot.

Of course peeps can rejoice habs can finally start to fill jerseys from within through the draft and root for their favorites.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Winning the cup, dead last in the league, same thing really

The path towards a cup is not a straight line. Look at Tampa. Three straight years of top six picks. Then they seem to move forward only to draft top top ten two years in a row again. It took them over ten years to become the powerhouse they did.

Imagine if they'd listen to a whiney fan saying 'Let's just forget this... no point in showing patience here. These bums are never going to be anything...'

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What does that even mean

Exactly what it says.