The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[LaP]

we dont know whether helps winning or culture. We do know something is lacking in the right mindset

Dvorak is likely classic addition by subtraction

Couldnt imagine playing with a guy who cares so little.

It's hard to know what's lacking outside of eliter skills. It's a myth that leadership and winning culture alone can help win games. People often mix depth players being able to keep the boat afloat while elite players are injured because they don't have the pressure to be the elite players they just have the pressure to replace said elite players for 20-40 games. They mix that with leadership and culture win games. Look at what happened with Detroit once Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Datsyuk retired. Looks what happaned to the avs once Sakic retired. Their winning culture went the way of the dodo and it was FAST like overnight boom gone.

The whole rispek, lidership, Culture Club and such is overrated by fans. All those are more often than not synonymous with elite skills players being around. Now you can't win with elite skills alone (toronto, edmonton, ...) but to know what you are lacking depth wise you must first find the elite skills and then you'll know what kind of depth you need. I'm not denying the fact that a system coach who coach based on rispek can get you some short time success with a bunch of grinders we have been there and done that. But over a long period of time the only thing you'll achieve with the rispek strategy is beign a bubble team over and over and over and over for the erst of eternity.

 

[BoneHutson]

Regardless, if our lot in life in this season is another bottom 5 finish... that means another high end talent to add to the pipeline, in addition to several other high value picks.

If you add a Martone/Hagens/Misa to this group and we get Calgary's pick.. after that, everything else we have in currency can be used for opportunities like Utah grabbing Sergachev.

At that point we'd have reached a critical mass of high level prospects and total number of available slots to play them.

We’re only missing Misa and an extra top 4 D (although Engstrom might be the answer sooner than later).

Caufield-Suzuki-Slaf
Laine-Dach-Demidov
Roy-Misa-Hage

Is an amazing top 9. Id even look to add an extra top 6 forward with CGYs pick if between 11-16. Eklund would be the dream assuming we can move up to 8-10. Try to get an extra young RHD with the assets yoy get at the TDL (aka Matheson, Savard, Evans)

 

[junyab]

Dominating? sure, agree, it's rare. Looking like they could be something special? no it happens pretty often actually, Hutson is looking like that so I am pretty happy with him

Not to single him out too hard for an example, but I sure don't feel good about the way Slafkovsky plays this year, this is not normal, he shouldn't look this invisible most games, that grinds my gear, kid needs to wake up and show us something if he really has *it*. A shift here and there where he takes over the game, anything more than a bunch of secondary assists please I beg of you

So you want pure linear consistent development at the highest level of play. Cool stuff. Once again, you're expectations and wants are unrealistic.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Let's put things in another perspective..

The Habs OFFICIAL rebuild started in the 2022 entry draft, when Hughes and Gorton took over midway through that season.

The other teams drafting top 10 that year:
New Jersey
Utah
Seattle
Philadelphia
Columbus
Chicago
Anaheim
Detroit
Buffalo

New Jersey is currently in a playoff spot, playing very well. They first drafted well outside of the playoffs in 2015 when they took Zacha at 6th overall.

Utah has 5 more points than Montreal, they did make some moves to add to their core. Their rebuild started in 2013 when they took Max Domi at 13th overall.

Seattle has 1 more point than Montreal, they were an expansion team so they had a clear cap sheet and started with this inaugural selection in this draft.

Philadelphia has 1 more point than Montreal, 2022 was the official start of their rebuild. They had a year when they traded their picks and Foerster was drafted late 1st, then there's some high picks before that, but a two year bridge is enough to say they started at the same year as us.

Columbus has 2 more points than us (2 games in hand) and started their rebuild officially in 2021 when they took Kent Johnson at 5.

Chicago has played 1 more game and has 1 more point than us and started their rebuild in 2022 and won Bedard in their lottery.

Detroit has 3 more points and 2 games in hand, their rebuild started in 2017 when they took Rasmussen 9th overall.

Buffalo has 3 more points than us, they are in the rebuild of the rebuild that started in 2012 when they took Grigorenko at 12 and Girgensons at 14, you could stretch it to Armia at 16 the year before.

Anaheim has 2 games in hand and the same name of points as us, their rebuild started in 2019 with the selection of Trevor Zegras at 9.

I have already took a look at cup winners who went through a rebuild and it's 5 years at earliest to come out of a rebuild, those teams won Ovechkin, Crosby/Malkin, the rest usually get out of it around the 8 year mark.

We are not going through something unique, it only feels unique because we have never done this before. This is what rebuilding looks like. It takes a LONG time. It takes patience. It is RARELY linear. There will be ups and downs. Some nights our young players will look like they own the NHL and others look like they aren't ready to compete in it.

Take a breath, gain some perspective, strap in.

 

[Tabarouette]

So you want pure linear consistent development at the highest level of play. Cool stuff. Once again, you're expectations and wants are unrealistic.

Maybe you should try reading but thanks for your insights we can move on now

 

[LaP]

Let's put things in another perspective..

The Habs OFFICIAL rebuild started in the 2022 entry draft, when Hughes and Gorton took over midway through that season.

The other teams drafting top 10 that year:
New Jersey
Utah
Seattle
Philadelphia
Columbus
Chicago
Anaheim
Detroit
Buffalo

New Jersey is currently in a playoff spot, playing very well. They first drafted well outside of the playoffs in 2015 when they took Zacha at 6th overall.

Utah has 5 more points than Montreal, they did make some moves to add to their core. Their rebuild started in 2013 when they took Max Domi at 13th overall.

Seattle has 1 more point than Montreal, they were an expansion team so they had a clear cap sheet and started with this inaugural selection in this draft.

Philadelphia has 1 more point than Montreal, 2022 was the official start of their rebuild. They had a year when they traded their picks and Foerster was drafted late 1st, then there's some high picks before that, but a two year bridge is enough to say they started at the same year as us.

Columbus has 2 more points than us (2 games in hand) and started their rebuild officially in 2021 when they took Kent Johnson at 5.

Chicago has played 1 more game and has 1 more point than us and started their rebuild in 2022 and won Bedard in their lottery.

Detroit has 3 more points and 2 games in hand, their rebuild started in 2017 when they took Rasmussen 9th overall.

Buffalo has 3 more points than us, they are in the rebuild of the rebuild that started in 2012 when they took Grigorenko at 12 and Girgensons at 14, you could stretch it to Armia at 16 the year before.

Anaheim has 2 games in hand and the same name of points as us, their rebuild started in 2019 with the selection of Trevor Zegras at 9.

I have already took a look at cup winners who went through a rebuild and it's 5 years at earliest to come out of a rebuild, those teams won Ovechkin, Crosby/Malkin, the rest usually get out of it around the 8 year mark.

We are not going through something unique, it only feels unique because we have never done this before. This is what rebuilding looks like. It takes a LONG time. It takes patience. It is RARELY linear. There will be ups and downs. Some nights our young players will look like they own the NHL and others look like they aren't ready to compete in it.

Take a breath, gain some perspective, strap in.

I'd say Utah rebuild started in 2015 with Keller's 6th overall pick. Domi's pick was too low to be considered the start of a rebuild it'd be like saying we started with Caufield or Guhle. They drafted Strome 3rd overall the previous year (2014) but the player is long gone so can't really add that year to the current management (like we can't add JK to our current rebuild). But mostly everyone drafted after Keller (since 2015) are still there.

 

[RealityBytes]

It doesn't matter when the rebuild started, in 2022 or 2015 or whenever. What does matter is what is the results or yield of the present rebuild. Right now, it looks like the present rebuild needs a rebuild.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I'd say Utah rebuild started in 2015 with Keller's 6th overall pick. Domi's pick was too low to be considered the start of a rebuild it'd be like saying we started with Caufield or Guhle. They drafted Strome 3rd overall the previous year (2014) but the player is long gone so can't really add that year to the current management (like we can't add JK to our current rebuild). But mostly everyone drafted after Keller (since 2015) are still there.

You could push it for Utah, that's still 9 years. They're actually well outside the likely window to come out of a rebuild.

It doesn't matter when the rebuild started, in 2022 or 2015 or whenever. What does matter is what is the results or yield of the present rebuild. Right now, it looks like the present rebuild needs a rebuild.

Because the two players from the 2022 draft currently on the team aren't pushing them into the top of the league?

We saw Caufield and Suzuki play massive parts for our team that got to the cup finals. Everything else was not in the NHL or acquired by the staff in 2021/22 when the rebuild officially started.

I just posted how irrational it is to expect much more than what we are seeing.

Thankfully our management isn't so impatient and short sided as our fans.

We wanted a rebuild. This is what it looks like. It's painful. It's gonna be a lot more pain before it gets better.

 

[WinterLion]

Suzuki, Caulfield and Guhle should help us accelerate the rebuild a bit.

The team is among the youngest in the league 2-3 years (average) younger than most playoff teams.

This deadline we will lose 4 veteran contracts which may be filled internally.

Next year might not be much better.

 

[Miller Time]

It doesn't matter when the rebuild started, in 2022 or 2015 or whenever. What does matter is what is the results or yield of the present rebuild. Right now, it looks like the present rebuild needs a rebuild.

Not at all

If anything, it's progressing very well.

 

[WinterLion]

We’re only missing Misa and an extra top 4 D (although Engstrom might be the answer sooner than later).

Caufield-Suzuki-Slaf
Laine-Dach-Demidov
Roy-Misa-Hage

Is an amazing top 9. Id even look to add an extra top 6 forward with CGYs pick if between 11-16. Eklund would be the dream assuming we can move up to 8-10. Try to get an extra young RHD with the assets yoy get at the TDL (aka Matheson, Savard, Evans)

Didn't we learn our lesson about penciling in Dach as a C.... let alone 2C?

Also I think Suzi eventually needs to be 2C when this team is a contender.... it may take a few years.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Suzuki, Caulfield and Guhle should help us accelerate the rebuild a bit.

The team is among the youngest in the league 2-3 years (average) younger than most playoff teams.

This deadline we will lose 4 veteran contracts which may be filled internally.

Next year might not be much better.

If the expectations are playoffs next year then yea, unlikely to happen without a big move, Demidov hitting the ground running, Slaf and Dach finding consistency and another level in their game and more stability from the young defenseman, and actual NHL level goaltending.

Next year is closer to what people think this year is with the in the mix comment.

 

[WinterLion]

If the expectations are playoffs next year then yea, unlikely to happen without a big move, Demidov hitting the ground running, Slaf and Dach finding consistency and another level in their game and more stability from the young defenseman, and actual NHL level goaltending.

Next year is closer to what people think this year is with the in the mix comment.

Yes that would be great... but I would guess a top 10 pick and a big return for Matheson (and Laine?) at the deadline.

 

[Habby4Life]

It doesn't matter when the rebuild started, in 2022 or 2015 or whenever. What does matter is what is the results or yield of the present rebuild. Right now, it looks like the present rebuild needs a rebuild.

Some have totally bought into Hugo & Marty and will believe all is well no matter what. Team has regressed, it’s not even a question anymore.

Like I said, a group of fans are ok forever drafting top 5.

 

[Beer and Chips]

KISS. Expecting struggling veterans and inexperienced youth to play a complicated, high-iq game is asking too much when the team is obviously struggling. Hutson has to dumb down his game for his teammates.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Some have totally bought into Hugo & Marty and will believe all is well no matter what. Team has regressed, it’s not even a question anymore.

Like I said, a group of fans are ok forever drafting top 5.

And a group of fans are OK with hiring a trap Q league retreat coach, stuffing the team with middling players and hope to squeak in 8th place with no hope to compete like the last 30 years.

Being patient and knowing what history tells us is true about rebuilds in the NHL =/= being okay with drafting top 5 every year.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It doesn't matter when the rebuild started, in 2022 or 2015 or whenever.

So you can ignore the chasm in our asset base in 2021-2022 and ignore that the prospects we picked won't be impacting the team until a few years.

What does matter is what is the results or yield of the present rebuild.

Which started just two years ago

Right now, it looks like the present rebuild needs a rebuild.

I would suggest something else needs a rebuild, but I don't wanna get an infraction.

 

[Team_Spirit]

Man this thread is way too serious.

Don't diss-rispek Kenny Hugizzy if it happened to me it could happen to you

nom sayn

 

[habdynasty]

Why the Montreal Canadiens need to change their defensive system

The Montreal Canadiens are at the bottom of the league in goals against and a major reason for this is how many high quality looks they're allowing. Former video coach Andrew Brewer examines Montreal's hybrid defence and makes a case for why they should consider switching it up.

www.sportsnet.ca

The habs defensive system

 

[Habby4Life]

And a group of fans are OK with hiring a trap Q league retreat coach, stuffing the team with middling players and hope to squeak in 8th place with no hope to compete like the last 30 years.

Being patient and knowing what history tells us is true about rebuilds in the NHL =/= being okay with drafting top 5 every year.

Rebuilds are ok if you see progression. Burying heads in sand and having blind faith isn’t going to change the fact there are serious issues with this rebuild.

Can’t keep excusing lack of effort, poor if not no defensive structure, not being ready to play, and player regression simply by using the “rebuild” excuse over and over again. Even in a rebuild we should see improvements in these areas each year.

Team is a mess right now and that’s on Hugo and Bombay. I’m not expecting a playoff team in yr 3/4 but I do think they should know how to play without the puck, be ready at puck drop and look a little interested in the game.

 

[The Great Weal]

I think both perspectives have their validity. The timeline discussion is weird, I think it's pretty evident that we started the rebuild in 2022. MB definitely handcuffed us with dogshit contracts to bad players. With that in mind, 3 consecutive top 5 picks don't happen often for teams so it's not like Hughes had absolutely nothing to work with. This doesn't even include the fact that we had Suzuki/CC/Guhle/top pick along with vets in Chiarot/Toffoli/Kulak/Petry and Lehkonen (even if it didn't work out) that Hughes has capitalized on.

Anderson and Dvorak would have received something worthwhile at the time, and the unwillingness to retain on long-term contracts was definitely a mistake in hindsight. Of course, it's so much easier to say this now, and expecting him to be a clairvoyant who can't make any mistakes is extremely unreasonable.

I'm willing to cut Hughes some slack because even if he didn't trade the likes of Anderson/Dvorak when they had way more value, he still had to (and still has to) deal with a ridiculous amount of bad contracts. However, this can't be the 4th off-season in a row where he sits on his ass and because of the MB mess. He can't just be banking on drafting the whole team with top 5 picks and other high picks. He's got to make trades and/or signings that improve the team and even a buyout or two to not waste the prime of Suzuki who's arguably still our most valuable piece.

 

[Artaud]

A lot of ink has been spilled about the rebuild process, when to end a rebuild, how to avoid the patented Buffalo endless rebuild, etc.

It seems to me like the most predictive and consistent factor differenciating teams that succeed and fail to rebuild is finding a goalie. From that perspective, the Habs won't be in a position to compete until Fowler, who seems to bear the hopes of this organization in the net, is ready to take over. That is very likely 2-3 years away. Until then, they are better off acquiring and developing young talent.

Most players we as a fanbase believe to be foundational pieces will turn out to be complimentary players at best. We're already seeing it with Dach. The true blue chips will emerge naturally regardless of circumstances. Case in point : watch Hutson come along and thrive amongst a wave of struggling young defenders.

 

[Miller Time]

KISS. Expecting struggling veterans and inexperienced youth to play a complicated, high-iq game is asking too much when the team is obviously struggling. Hutson has to dumb down his game for his teammates.

If the goal was to win right now, you can bet that this is what would happen.

They are building for the future, and willing to be patient with the dip that accompanies building and implementing a concept based approach from the ground up.

Far easier to build a tactical approach, but also far easier to neutralize.

Most fans around here aren't patient enough to accept that kind of process, and that's fair...

it sucks in the short term, long term it's well worth it.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Rebuilds are ok if you see progression. Burying heads in sand and having blind faith isn’t going to change the fact there are serious issues with this rebuild.

Can’t keep excusing lack of effort, poor if not no defensive structure, not being ready to play, and player regression simply by using the “rebuild” excuse over and over again. Even in a rebuild we should see improvements in these areas each year.

Team is a mess right now and that’s on Hugo and Bombay. I’m not expecting a playoff team in yr 3/4 but I do think they should know how to play without the puck, be ready at puck drop and look a little interested in the game.

Ok and which rebuilds are you citing where this is the norm and not the exception. Even the Devils dropped from a playoff team in the top of the metro to a literal bottom 10 team last year. And they didn't get to that point until many years after drafting Hughes let alone Hischier

 

[Habby4Life]

Ok and which rebuilds are you citing where this is the norm and not the exception. Even the Devils dropped from a playoff team in the top of the metro to a literal bottom 10 team last year. And they didn't get to that point until many years after drafting Hughes let alone Hischier

The Devils had 100+ pts 3 yrs after drafting Hughes. Last year they dropped because of Hamilton injury, too much youth on D, and poor goaltending. They added Pesce, Kova, Hamilton is back and solidified the goal. Now they are back on track. Their GM recoginized the problem and did something to correct it.

You can make excuses all you want but they have regressed big time and there are serious flaws with this rebuild.

Norm, in yr 3/4 of the rebuild, they should be able to play without the puck, just a little bit, lol. Defensively they are pathetic, most guys have regressed, and they look disinterested most nights. By yr 3/4 that is a major concern.

Hugo has a lot of work to do to fix this. He should start with replacing Bombay.