The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[Kennerback]

Please stop the lame framing. It's never a question of tanking forever. You have to be lucky to draft only 3 years. It's an irrealistic take. The majority of youth that get drafted high go through losing years as they are drafted by rebuilding teams. It doesn't make the lot of them worse off. The central problem is not the lenght of the rebuild, but competency and luck in the rebuild, which can easily be extended to 5-7 years if errors or bad luck occur. Bedard lamenting losing in his sophomore year proves absolutely norhing. Come back with that take if he ever leaves.

I couldn’t imagine it happening but some in Chicago are legit worried he’ll ask for a trade.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I couldn’t imagine it happening but some in Chicago are legit worried he’ll ask for a trade.

Suzuki just went through almost 4 seasons of losing. He also lamented. He's still here. Fan panic proves nothing. Bedard's a good kid. He'll be talked to. He'll understand and he'll go though it. Most young stars/superstars go through it because they aren't drafted by the best teams and the majority of them stick around despite the losing years.

 

[Kennerback]

Suzuki just went through almost 4 seasons of losing. He also lamented. He's still here. Fan panic proves nothing. Bedard's a good kid. He'll be talked to. He'll understand and he'll go though it. Most young stars/superstars go through it because they aren't drafted by the best teams and the majority of them stick around despite the losing years.

Suzuki is not Bedard. And I believe we’re going a bit into unchartered water with a so-called “generational player” still at rock bottom on his second season. I don’t recall Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid having to go through this. Not making the playoffs sure. Being dead last?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Suzuki is not Bedard. And I believe we’re going a bit into unchartered water with a so-called “generational player” still at rock bottom on his second season. I don’t recall Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid having to go through this. Not making the playoffs sure. Being dead last?

'Uncharted territory'. Come on now. It's an appraisal of potential which so far he doesn't seem to be. You're building a house of card argument. He doesn't belong with those names, but you act as if he does so you can build that narrative. It's not uncharted territory. The great majority of high draft picks go through losing years. Full stop.

 

[Kennerback]

'Uncharted territory'. Come on now. It's an appraisal of potential which so far he doesn't seem to be. You're building a house of card argument. He doesn't belong with those names, but you act as if he does so you can build that narrative. It's not uncharted territory. The great majority of high draft picks go through losing years. Full stop.

My argument is that tanking and drafting Top-3 picks year after year comes with all kinds of consequences. It’s not all rainbows ans skittles.

 

[ReHabs]

Why you can’t Tank forever in a Rebuild: Exhibit A

“It’s really frustrating. We’re competitive athletes, and we take a lot of pride in our games, our group as a team, and our fan base,” said Connor Bedard after another loss by the Chicago Blackhawks on Monday night. A 5-2 loss to the Calgary Flames left the dynamic star more dejected than he’s appeared in some time. “It’s been hard. It’s been a lot of games to lose. It weighs on you.”

The team was recently booed at home. Fans are getting impatient, players are getting impatient. Not good for young players.

MSN

Just one more tank bro, just one more.

The fact is people resorted to 'let's run another tank' this season out of sheer desperation. Otherwise. they would've had to (gasp) criticise MSL and Hughes and Dach and Newhook and Slafkovsky and so on for the absolutely pathetic start to the season.

This happens when fans under-value results in a competitive environment. Results matter the most!

Bedard is simply expressing his frustration with losing. Seems perfectly fine to me.

I don't know if wins/losses dictates when a rebuild is over. HuGo already mentioned we were not necessarily in the acquired asset phase any longer before the season even started. It corresponded with the view that most our holes were either plugged or being addressed. The poor start threw that in question but it was more the lack of compete and quality of play that was off. For me we are now in the building mode and the idea should be to upgrade as much as possible wherever and whenever possible. I always said my goal at the beginning of the rebuild was to become like the Las Vegas Knights were season one where a balanced roster was enough to get them in the post season. Once that happens the fun stuff starts with the tweaking.
We are close to that now I think.

I think we are short some trade-worthy assets to make the necessary swings. Would be nice to have a few prospects as interesting as Hage, so to dangle some on the market.

Selling Evans and Armia for a ransom would help recoup some of the value lost on Newhook. Otherwise, the players we would have drafted for what we gave up for Newhook would be good trade options today.

We need a reliable 2C who isn’t made of glass and a top3, ideally top2, dman who can devour minutes. That don’t come cheap.

 

[Rapala]

I think we are short some trade-worthy assets to make the necessary swings. Would be nice to have a few prospects as interesting as Hage, so to dangle some on the market.

Selling Evans and Armia for a ransom would help recoup some of the value lost on Newhook. Otherwise, the players we would have drafted for what we gave up for Newhook would be good trade options today.

We need a reliable 2C who isn’t made of glass and a top3, ideally top2, dman who can devour minutes. That don’t come cheap.

I would like to think Hughes already has a decent idea of what the cost for that type of player will be.
Our TDL should be a reflection of this if management are thinking the same way. I'm not sure what a ransom would be for Armia but getting a first for Evans would be hard to ignore.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Where’s Beck? He’s on the team next year.

In regards to Reinbacher, I’m leery of pencilling him in for next year. We’ve seen how much players perform post surgery and it’s not pretty. He might need some time.

I don't think they will have both Beck and Kapanen same year, so he's in Laval for year 2.

 

[Sorinth]

Just one more tank bro, just one more.

The fact is people resorted to 'let's run another tank' this season out of sheer desperation. Otherwise. they would've had to (gasp) criticise MSL and Hughes and Dach and Newhook and Slafkovsky and so on for the absolutely pathetic start to the season.

This happens when fans under-value results in a competitive environment. Results matter the most!

Bedard is simply expressing his frustration with losing. Seems perfectly fine to me.


I think we are short some trade-worthy assets to make the necessary swings. Would be nice to have a few prospects as interesting as Hage, so to dangle some on the market.

Selling Evans and Armia for a ransom would help recoup some of the value lost on Newhook. Otherwise, the players we would have drafted for what we gave up for Newhook would be good trade options today.

We need a reliable 2C who isn’t made of glass and a top3, ideally top2, dman who can devour minutes. That don’t come cheap.

The cognitive dissonance of saying results in a competitive environment matter the most and then a couple sentences later we should trade Evans and Armia, two guys who are a big part of providing those results is astounding. Like it's one thing if Evans/Armia are being traded directly for this reliable 2C or top-2 D, but trading them for assets with no idea whether you can actually acquire the supposed missing pieces, which incidentally are pretty much what every NHL is also looking for and as a result are rarely available.

The simple fact is that if results and competitive environment matter the most, we should be re-signing Evans and Armia.

 

[red devil]

This is the 3 year anniversary of Kent Hughes being hired as the GM, which started the rebuild.

 

[Sorinth]

Where’s Beck? He’s on the team next year.

In regards to Reinbacher, I’m leery of pencilling him in for next year. We’ve seen how much players perform post surgery and it’s not pretty. He might need some time.

Beck will be in a battle with Kapanen, nobody knows who will look better at camp, but it's probably safe to say whoever loses the battle will be in the AHL because you want both guys getting ice time.

 

[Miller Time]

The cognitive dissonance of saying results in a competitive environment matter the most and then a couple sentences later we should trade Evans and Armia, two guys who are a big part of providing those results is astounding. Like it's one thing if Evans/Armia are being traded directly for this reliable 2C or top-2 D, but trading them for assets with no idea whether you can actually acquire the supposed missing pieces, which incidentally are pretty much what every NHL is also looking for and as a result are rarely available.

The simple fact is that if results and competitive environment matter the most, we should be re-signing Evans and Armia.

I don't think it's cognitive dissonance so much as intentional...

The consistency or coherence of an argument is irrelevant when throwing out hot takes... It's a feature of that approach to posting that allows a poster to keep flip flopping as needed to avoid owning a bad take when it gets obviously refuted.


It's is very likely that Hughes prioritizes upgrading the roster as we go forward. There may well be some vets traded for draft/prospect assets, but only to the degree that they are confident in the in-house or external replacement being a net immediate upgrade (direct or cap reallocation to a different roster spot).

I too suspect that both Evans & Armia are given serious extension offers... If the deals aren't done pre-deadline, I doubt they get moved as KH will be confident in replacing them with 1 of Roy/Kapanen/Beck + a UFA signing with the combined 6-8M$ theyd have allocated to Armia/Evans extensions.

 

[Adriatic]

Losing both Armia and Evans would be a huge blow for next season..we would definitely regress if that happens. Ideally Gallagher and Dvorak are out so Beck and maybe another rookie can be slotted.

 

[ReHabs]

The cognitive dissonance of saying results in a competitive environment matter the most and then a couple sentences later we should trade Evans and Armia, two guys who are a big part of providing those results is astounding. Like it's one thing if Evans/Armia are being traded directly for this reliable 2C or top-2 D, but trading them for assets with no idea whether you can actually acquire the supposed missing pieces, which incidentally are pretty much what every NHL is also looking for and as a result are rarely available.

The simple fact is that if results and competitive environment matter the most, we should be re-signing Evans and Armia.

What’s astounding is how badly you needed to stretch my statements to find (fabricate) something disagreeable.

Even competitive teams have to consider asset-management and even sometimes make compromises.

If eg the likes of Newhook hadn’t been such a bust, the Habs could’ve likely had the necessary assets to trade for desired pieces.

 

[Miller Time]

What’s astounding is how badly you needed to stretch my statements to find (fabricate) something disagreeable.

Even competitive teams has to consider asset-management and even sometimes make compromises.

Yes, and filling the board with posts complaining that they don't and complaining when they do is what he's talking about... This type of disingenuous posting epitomizes "bad takes"

If eg the likes of Newhook hadn’t been such a bust, the Habs could’ve likely had the necessary assets to trade for desired pieces.

This is nonsensical.

Habs have arguably the best mix of draft & prospect capital in the league... To go with a top tier U25 NHL asset mix.

Yet another terrible take with no grounding in reality

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

What’s astounding is how badly you needed to stretch my statements to find (fabricate) something disagreeable.

Even competitive teams have to consider asset-management and even sometimes make compromises.

If eg the likes of Newhook hadn’t been such a bust, the Habs could’ve likely had the necessary assets to trade for desired pieces.

Since Newhook is not a bust your argument fails.

 

[ReHabs]

I would like to think Hughes already has a decent idea of what the cost for that type of player will be.
Our TDL should be a reflection of this if management are thinking the same way. I'm not sure what a ransom would be for Armia but getting a first for Evans would be hard to ignore.

If we keep an 0.800 until the TDL, we’d have to be buyers. What a look that would be.

 

[Miller Time]

Since Newhook is not a bust your argument fails.

Just another in a growing list of terrible posts...
"Slaf is a bust"
"MSL can't coach"
"Hughes' rebuild is a failure"

Impressive collection of bad takes lol

 

[Frankenheimer]

Suzuki just went through almost 4 seasons of losing. He also lamented. He's still here. Fan panic proves nothing. Bedard's a good kid. He'll be talked to. He'll understand and he'll go though it. Most young stars/superstars go through it because they aren't drafted by the best teams and the majority of them stick around despite the losing years.

Yes and at the same time fuk Chicago

 

[Frankenheimer]

“It’s really frustrating. We’re competitive athletes, and we take a lot of pride in our games, our group as a team, and our fan base,” said Connor Bedard after another loss by the Chicago Blackhawks on Monday night. A 5-2 loss to the Calgary Flames left the dynamic star more dejected than he’s appeared in some time. “It’s been hard. It’s been a lot of games to lose. It weighs on you.”

 

[Sorinth]

What’s astounding is how badly you needed to stretch my statements to find (fabricate) something disagreeable.

Even competitive teams have to consider asset-management and even sometimes make compromises.

If eg the likes of Newhook hadn’t been such a bust, the Habs could’ve likely had the necessary assets to trade for desired pieces.

So what is untrue?
1 - Results are the most important thing
2 - Evans and Armia are important contributors to our results

And as a side note we are already in a position of asset surplus with 7 extra picks over the next 2 drafts on top of our regular complement of picks, and have had 30 picks over the past 3 years which is 9 more then the baseline. And of those 16 extra picks 3 are/have been 1st rounders, so we are on track for having drafted almost double the normal number of times in the 1st round in a 4 year period. And top of it all Evans and Armia are unlikely to even return 1st round picks so it's even less interesting.

 

[ReHabs]

So what is untrue?
1 - Results are the most important thing
2 - Evans and Armia are important contributors to our results

Can you conceive of a world where multiple true things can be in conflict with each other — and therefore require a compromise?

And as a side note we are already in a position of asset surplus with 7 extra picks over the next 2 drafts on top of our regular complement of picks, and have had 30 picks over the past 3 years which is 9 more then the baseline. And of those 16 extra picks 3 are/have been 1st rounders, so we are on track for having drafted almost double the normal number of times in the 1st round in a 4 year period. And top of it all Evans and Armia are unlikely to even return 1st round picks so it's even less interesting.

You’re counting the picks wasted on Newhook and the now long shot Mešar, I presume. Dach wont get us a 13OA any time soon either. As the team develops, the value of its first round picks goes down. (Why else would tanking be a big attraction?)

My feeling is we’re a tight on assets if we want to acquire two high-end pieces (C + D). Hope it’s not an astonishing display of cognitive dissonance to think so.

 

[ahmedou]

I hated 2021-2022

 

[Sorinth]

Can you conceive of a world where multiple true things can be in conflict with each other — and therefore require a compromise?

Then results are not the most important thing, they are just one of many things that are important.

You’re counting the picks wasted on Newhook and the now long shot Mešar, I presume. Dach wont get us a 13OA any time soon either. As the team develops, the value of its first round picks goes down. (Why else would tanking be a big attraction?)

My feeling is we’re a tight on assets if we want to acquire two high-end pieces (C + D). Hope it’s not an astonishing display of cognitive dissonance to think so.

Unsurprisingly your presumptions are wrong, I didn't include the picks traded for Newhook, nor did I include the pick that was traded for Dach.

 

[Habnot]

I don't want to see another rookie handed a spot without earning it - with the exeption of Demidov. We have enough youth in the lineup and Demidov is coming next year. There is also enough cap room to sign Evans and Armia, which we know we can't immediately replace without some regression.

No issue if Beck and Mailloux play another year in the AHL. Same with Rienbacher.