TV: The Sopranos Discussion Thread

[chicagoskycam]

Tony was also surrounded by people that were often worse than he was, in some cases, he was the better of the evils around him or the voice of reason. His mother, Janice, Paulie, Chris, Richie, Ralph and so on.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

There's a rule about not being able to kill a boss, I know it has been broken in the past but for the sake of show, odds are the call was made by the commission. Tony killed a boss of an NY family, that was not gonna fly with the other families.

I also think Carmine Lupertazzi jr was a lot smarter than the show portrayed him to be. It makes sense that once Phil was out of the picture, the Lupertazzi family probably split the leadership role between Carmine and the other NY faction to keep the peace and get back to business.

Far from being some sort of expert, I have to say, I don't get this. The guy was actively trying to kill him. What's he supposed to do?

Besides, you don't really see him sweat that aspect of it. Not that everything has to be shown but this seems like a concern that would have be worth bringing up if it would be a point of contention.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I like a lot of this, and I think that's reflective of a lot of how each generation kind of... is. Redemption takes work. Redemption is hard.

The whole show starts with him going to therapy. But he goes to therapy not to get "better", but rather to find some element of control over how he is feeling vis a vis his panic attacks. There isn't a moment throughout the show where you see him grapple with the morality of what he is doing. He may *regret* some of the stuff he is doing when it's happening to people close to him, he even feels some guilt (for instance, after he kills p***y), but it doesn't keep him from doing it again.

I think Sopranos is fascinating as a view of Tony's growth (or lack of growth) throughout the series, but also because how mundane so many of the decisions are. It's also interesting *where* you find their moral lines are.

It's not a show about good and evil. Not to tell tales out of school, but I went to therapy after a bit of a breakdown a few years ago. And one of the things I realized was getting *better* was more than learning to deal with the stress - it was looking at the environment I put myself in and dealing with it. You have to change and make sacrifices, and that's something Tony won't do.

That's Carmela's department - a challenge she fails constantly in spectacular fashion. Tony Soprano never grapples with the morality of what he's doing but I don't recall him ever doubting it in the first place. He believes in the concept of the Mafia - it's a flimsy perspective in 1999 (hence how weak Tony's psyche is/how strong his self-delusion) but he justifies it with poor Italians wanting a piece of the pie and getting in on the action. It may be the case but there's nothing to suggest that he doesn't believe what he's saying, especially when you consider who he's saying to.

 

[SuperScript29]

Far from being some sort of expert, I have to say, I don't get this. The guy was actively trying to kill him. What's he supposed to do?

Besides, you don't really see him sweat that aspect of it. Not that everything has to be shown but this seems like a concern that would have be worth bringing up if it would be a point of contention.

The point of not killing a boss has been brought up on the show multiple times. In fact it was a huge reason why Tony refused to go along with Johny Sac on the murder of Lupertazzi Sr and they even referenced Castellano which he was the last boss killed back in the 80s by John Gotti and that basically made the rest of the NY families go after Gotti for it.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

The point of not killing a boss has been brought up on the show multiple times. In fact it was a huge reason why Tony refused to go along with Johny Sac on the murder of Lupertazzi Sr and they even referenced Castellano which he was the last boss killed back in the 80s by John Gotti and that basically made the rest of the NY families go after Gotti for it.

Phil Leotardo even says its wrong to whack a boss, he obviously changes his mind though

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I think the rules about whacking bosses pretty much went into the toilet once the Soprano versus Lupertazzi family war went all-out.

 

[SuperScript29]

The rules went right out between Tony and Phil and they got carried away but the other families will still step in to regulate if things got out of hand, which they did.

Tony broke the rule of killing a boss without the commission giving the okay. That's what got him killed in the end.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

The rules went right out between Tony and Phil and they got carried away but the other families will still step in to regulate if things got out of hand, which they did.

Tony broke the rule of killing a boss without the commission giving the okay. That's what got him killed in the end.

The Lupertazzi family Ok'd the hit, dont think the commission would need to give permission for them to take out their own boss would they?

 

[SuperScript29]

The Lupertazzi family Ok'd the hit, dont think the commission would need to give permission for them to take out their own boss would they?

That's not enough to take out a boss, you need to inform the commission and have a legit reason. If the other bosses on the commission give the okay then the hit can happen.

Also if you're referring to the last scene between Tony, Butchie, etc. They never gave him the permission to kill Phil, they just said they'd back off as far as the war goes and it's up to him on how he wants to handle Phil. Kind of like "at your own risk" approach.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

That's not enough to take out a boss, you need to inform the commission and have a legit reason. If the other bosses on the commission give the okay then the hit can happen.

Also if you're referring to the last scene between Tony, Butchie, etc. They never gave him the permission to kill Phil, they just said they'd back off as far as the war goes and it's up to him on how he wants to handle Phil. Kind of like "at your own risk" approach.

Unless im forgetting, didnt they give up Phils location?

 

[SuperScript29]

Unless im forgetting, didnt they give up Phils location?

No they didn't, Tony got Phil's location from FBI agent Harris.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Unless im forgetting, didnt they give up Phils location?

No Harris did. Butchie gives Tony the ok to kill Phil, but won't reveal his location.

 

[Baby Punisher]

I have been around people like Tony Soprano, and members of his crew for a good part of my life. They are always working an angle, always trying to figure out how to get over on people. 90% of them aren't killers. Slap a guy around now and then, yea it happens. mot of them will claim they are these great family men, but it's all bullshit. They are horrible to their wives and their kids. They smell weakness and fear and will exploit that. They only understand and respect one thing. Strength.

 

[Baby Punisher]

No Harris did. Butchie gives Tony the ok to kill Phil, but won't reveal his location.

I don't think Butch knew where he was. Remember in that scene on the phone, Butch asks where Phil was and Phil replies "close by."

 

[SuperScript29]

No Harris did. Butchie gives Tony the ok to kill Phil, but won't reveal his location.

Butchie never gave Tony the okay to wack Phil, he just told him to do whatever he wants to do, in other words it's all on Tony should he go that route, which he did and it got him killed in the end.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Saying he's evil is just another way to say he's a bad person which he definitely was. Not sure who you mean by supervillain but Tony made plenty of evil plans to screw over honest people and showed very little remorse. That's a bad person. There are worse people out there for sure but he was still bad.

I guess “evil” vs “bad” is a semantic distinction.

The entire show operates on the tension between the egregious, obvious evil that we see in mafia headlines (digging up a dismembered corpse, smashing the skeleton to bits with hammers, putting the remains in a burlap sack and throwing it in a lake) compared to the banality of how those headlines got started (garbage company bids for another company’s route).

What begins as one guy deciding to make a real estate deal over breakfast with his wife ends up with another guy, an otherwise nonviolent family man, committing cold blooded murder in public. The headline is shocking, but the way it played out is like a slow drip of choices to keep delaying an ethical life till some uncertain future time.

Probably the most deliberately evil thing Tony does in the entire series is the Jamba Juice deal. He betrays the entire neighborhood and culture that his way of life is supposedly set up to protect, and he does it consciously with full knowledge of what it means, and for nothing other than the thrill of scoring some easy cash. It’s the banality of evil, and part of what makes the show so poignant is that it holds those storylines up against real-life examples (the Iraq war, Indian casinos) playing out in the background.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

No they didn't, Tony got Phil's location from FBI agent Harris.

Ah, thats right, when he is sleeping with his co-worker in a seedy motel lol

 

[Baby Punisher]

I guess “evil” vs “bad” is a semantic distinction.

The entire show operates on the tension between the egregious, obvious evil that we see in mafia headlines (digging up a dismembered corpse, smashing the skeleton to bits with hammers, putting the remains in a burlap sack and throwing it in a lake) compared to the banality of how those headlines got started (garbage company bids for another company’s route).

What begins as one guy deciding to make a real estate deal over breakfast with his wife ends up with another guy, an otherwise nonviolent family man, committing cold blooded murder in public. The headline is shocking, but the way it played out is like a slow drip of choices to keep delaying an ethical life till some uncertain future time.

Probably the most deliberately evil thing Tony does in the entire series is the Jamba Juice deal. He betrays the entire neighborhood and culture that his way of life is supposedly set up to protect, and he does it consciously with full knowledge of what it means, and for nothing other than the thrill of scoring some easy cash. It’s the banality of evil, and part of what makes the show so poignant is that it holds those storylines up against real-life examples (the Iraq war, Indian casinos) playing out in the background.

I felt the Jamba Juice deal was good for the neighborhood. Gentrification can be a good thing for a declining neighborhood.

I agree Tony took the quick buck. If he was really interested in seeing the area thrive he would have invested his own money into the deal and built it block by block. Long term the earning potential is much greater. They did something similar with the HUD scam. They stole the mortgage money and defaulted on the loans, gutted the house for the copper and silver, and left them to rot. When the viable solution was to gut the house, tear it down, and keep buying until you could rebuild an entire block with homes or luxury apartment buildings. The long term tax benefits alone would be quadruple the amount of money they robbed from mortgage fraud and copper pipe. It always goes back to the quick buck for 90% of these guys. The other 10% you will never know their names because they are smart and they protect themselves with LLC's and lawyers.

 

[Epictetus]

Don't forget his toxic personality.
He intentionally ridiculed and put down those around him when they were having their own success (Chris with his sobriety and Janice with her new family, stand out).
He then couldn't take any criticism himself (his weight or that varsity athlete comment lol).

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I guess “evil” vs “bad” is a semantic distinction.

The entire show operates on the tension between the egregious, obvious evil that we see in mafia headlines (digging up a dismembered corpse, smashing the skeleton to bits with hammers, putting the remains in a burlap sack and throwing it in a lake) compared to the banality of how those headlines got started (garbage company bids for another company’s route).

What begins as one guy deciding to make a real estate deal over breakfast with his wife ends up with another guy, an otherwise nonviolent family man, committing cold blooded murder in public. The headline is shocking, but the way it played out is like a slow drip of choices to keep delaying an ethical life till some uncertain future time.

Probably the most deliberately evil thing Tony does in the entire series is the Jamba Juice deal. He betrays the entire neighborhood and culture that his way of life is supposedly set up to protect, and he does it consciously with full knowledge of what it means, and for nothing other than the thrill of scoring some easy cash. It’s the banality of evil, and part of what makes the show so poignant is that it holds those storylines up against real-life examples (the Iraq war, Indian casinos) playing out in the background.

I'll see you and raise you 'Sacre Bleu! Where is me mama?' Certainly a bit more on the nose but nonetheless brutal regardless of who was on the receiving end.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Quickly reading up a little bit on mob history and finding myself waiting for the 'Why Lucky Luciano was really a leftist hero' clickbait headline any day now. I may write it as my claim to Internet fame.

 

[Voight]

Phil Leotardo even says its wrong to whack a boss, he obviously changes his mind though

Phil never considered Tony a boss though, he saw his crew as some step child / black sheep.

Don't forget his toxic personality.
He intentionally ridiculed and put down those around him when they were having their own success (Chris with his sobriety and Janice with her new family, stand out).
He then couldn't take any criticism himself (his weight or that varsity athlete comment lol).

Never forget

 

[Voight]

 

[Raging Bull]

Phil never considered Tony a boss though, he saw his crew as some step child / black sheep.

Never forget

He was no Tony Egg.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Quickly reading up a little bit on mob history and finding myself waiting for the 'Why Lucky Luciano was really a leftist hero' clickbait headline any day now. I may write it as my claim to Internet fame.

Ok