The Significance of the 103 Shutouts Record?

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not all that significant. Big goalie equipment = more shutouts. A shutout is less impressive today than in the past because the equipment is so damn big.

Brodeur doesn't wear the huge equipment that most goalies wear nowadays.

The fact is, without the larger equipment these new techniques would not exist because they would not be successful.

Simply dropping to your knees and making yourself big in the net is only a viable option because the huge equipment makes it viable. Put the exact same equipment Tony Esposito wore on today's goalies and the butterfly style would quickly disappear as GAAs skyrocketed.

It is a myth that goaltending is so much better than it used to be; if it was, the larger equipment wouldn't be necessary.

Brodeur isn't a butterfly goalie.

Seriously, do you even watch hockey anymore? Because you are spouting generalities.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That is not exactly a complete picture of the situation.

You are looking at the two records in two different periods of time.

If you looked at Gretzky breaking Howe at 1851 those percentages are drastically different at that time. And that is where we are now with this record.

And speaking of eras... It also interesting that Howe is the only non 1980's play in the top 5 point list and Brodeur is the only current goalie in the top 5 shutout list.

Yes, I was going to make this same point. While I don't think the career shutout record is quite as impressive as career points, it is certainly worth noting that while Gretzky's 80s peers populate the top of the scoring list, Brodeur's company at the top of the list are all from ages past.

In fact, that was the main point of the article from 2002 - the game was so different when Sawchuk played that it had become much harder to get shutouts.

It's all about era. So, like career wins or career goals or points, I'm not too interested in it.

The era makes the record more impressive. Since everyone else at the top is from the 06 era and earlier.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sawchuk's Shutout records go to show you just how dominant his peak really was. Before Adams sent Sawchuk packing because Sawchuk's rampant alcoholism was seriously affecting him, Sawchuk had 56 of those 103 shutouts in his 5 year peak.

Within those 5 years, he also had 2 Retro Conn Smythe's, 1 in a year when his playoff performance was a 0.61GAA and 97.7% Save Percentage, going undefeated against the powerful Toronto and Montreal teams of the time.

He still managed 9 shutouts the next year on a piss poor Boston team, bringing the total to 65 shutouts in 6 years before his total meltdown with alcohol reduced him to a mere talented starter instead of Franchise player.

Imagine Sawchuk's records had he not become a raging alcoholic.

Yup. If Sawchuk didn't succumb to alcoholism, he may have become that generational goalie in the same tier as Howe, Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux. It would have saved us endless arguments about who the best goalie of all time actually is.

 

[TANK200]

Yes, I was going to make this same point. While I don't think the career shutout record is quite as impressive as career points, it is certainly worth noting that while Gretzky's 80s peers populate the top of the scoring list, Brodeur's company at the top of the list are all from ages past.

In fact, that was the main point of the article from 2002 - the game was so different when Sawchuk played that it had become much harder to get shutouts.



The era makes the record more impressive. Since everyone else at the top is from the 06 era and earlier.

I disagree that the era makes Brodeur's soon to be shutout record more impressive. Indeed, several of the leaders in shutouts are from the original 6 era, but some are from this recent era. In recent times, Hasek recorded 81 shutouts and Belfour recorded 76. Both are among the all-time leaders. Also, if Hasek had been able to come to the NHL at the age of 20 or 21 as Roy and Brodeur did, Brodeur would likely be chasing Hasek's shutout record, rather than Sawchuck's. Brodeur playing on the best defensive team in such a low scoring era was the perfect situation for him to break the all time record.

That being said, I consider the shutout record to be the most significant career mark for goaltenders, and it will be interesting to see how many Brodeur will end up with.

 

[haakon84]

I disagree that the era makes Brodeur's soon to be shutout record more impressive. Indeed, several of the leaders in shutouts are from the original 6 era, but some are from this recent era.

6 out of the top 25 I'd say are from recent times. Belfour, Roy, Hasek, Nabokov, Osgood, Joseph.

In recent times, Hasek recorded 81 shutouts and Belfour recorded 76. Both are among the all-time leaders.

And both are hall of fame goaltenders who may very well end up 50 shutouts behind Brodeur

Also, if Hasek had been able to come to the NHL at the age of 20 or 21 as Roy and Brodeur did, Brodeur would likely be chasing Hasek's shutout record, rather than Sawchuck's. Brodeur playing on the best defensive team in such a low scoring era was the perfect situation for him to break the all time record.

See TheDevilMadeMe's post about Sawchuk and alcoholism. The same can be said about Hasek entering the league when he did. He also could have had a different outcome.

That being said, I consider the shutout record to be the most significant career mark for goaltenders, and it will be interesting to see how many Brodeur will end up with.

Agreed. I think he'll end up with around 20-25 more shutouts. Putting him with 30% more shutouts than second place.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

6 out of the top 25 I'd say are from recent times. Belfour, Roy, Hasek, Nabokov, Osgood, Joseph.

Chris Osgood, top 25 goalie of all-time ???

Plante, Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk, Hall, Brodeur, Dryden, Durnan, Tretiak, Broda, Benedict, Brimsek, Bower, Hainsworth, Parent, Gardiner, Holecek, Belfour, Fuhr, Esposito, Smith, Cheevers, Vezina, Chabot, Connell, Worsley, Giacomin, Lumley, Vachon, Thompson, Worters, Joseph.

That's at least 32, if not more and yes I would put Mike Vernon ahead of Osgood as well.

 

[David Puddy]

Chris Osgood, top 25 goalie of all-time ???

Chris Osgood is ranked 23rd in all-time shutouts with 48.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

Chris Osgood is ranked 23rd in all-time shutouts with 48.

Which obviously makes him a better goalie than Ken Dryden who ranks 24th.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Which obviously makes him a better goalie than Ken Dryden who ranks 24th.

Check the last part of the thread again (starting with TANK200's last post) - this started when someone claimed that "Indeed, several of the leaders in shutouts are from the original 6 era, but some are from this recent era."

Successive posts have pointed out that Chris Osgood (23rd on the list) is from the recent era. No one has claimed that Osgood is a top-25 goaltender in terms of ability.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

It's all about era. So, like career wins or career goals or points, I'm not too interested in it.

I'd agree with this. Shutouts are extremely dependent on era, as well as the rest of the goalie's team. Shutouts are also a pretty arbitrary stat, given that there is not much of a difference in winning percentage between getting a shutout and allowing one goal yet the shutout effort is the only one that gets immortalized on the stat sheet.

Brodeur's shutout edge on his contemporaries is primarily a result of playing a lot more games than Hasek (who has a better shutout per game rate) and not having to play games in the more high-scoring late '80s and early '90s like Belfour and Roy.

If you adjust seasonal shutout totals based on league averages, you get something like the following:

Brodeur 99
Belfour 90
Roy 87
Hasek 84

And just to further demonstrate the era-dependency of shutout stats, Mike Liut's career total of 25 shutouts rates higher compared to the league averages during his career than George Hainsworth's mark of 94.

 

[Ogopogo*]

It is incredible that you do not see the obvious flaws in your logic. You fail to account for change in any aspect of the game other than goalie equipment. Believe it or not, hockey is not quite that one-dimensional.

Looking at it from a statistical point of view, average save percentage has increased from about .880 in the late 1980s to about .910 today. A save percentage of .880 means that it takes on average 8.3 shots to register a goal. A save percentage of .910 means that it takes on average 11.1 shots to register a goal. That means that it now takes 33% more shots to register a goal today than it did during the late 1980s. Assuming your estimate of equipment being larger by 20%, the change in save percentages over the two eras would indicate an improvement in the quality of goaltending in the NHL.

As i mentioned in an earlier post, giving your head a shake may be a wise course of action.

Nice bait 'n' switch on the stats. The fact is, save % has gone up about 3% or 3 more saves on 100 shots.

With the changes in the way the game is played and more lower % shots being taken than in previous eras, much of the credit you give goaltenders is misplaced.

The bottom line is this: If goaltenders are really significantly better than those of previous eras they need to bring their equipment down to historical sizes and prove it. Until they do it is a nice theory that has no basis in fact.

Larger pads is hockey's steroid scandal.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

My earlier warning went unheeded, it seems. The next post that even mentions goaltender equipment gets an infraction.

 

[puckhead103*]

Sawchuk's Shutout records go to show you just how dominant his peak really was. Before Adams sent Sawchuk packing because Sawchuk's rampant alcoholism was seriously affecting him, Sawchuk had 56 of those 103 shutouts in his 5 year peak.

Within those 5 years, he also had 2 Retro Conn Smythe's, 1 in a year when his playoff performance was a 0.61GAA and 97.7% Save Percentage, going undefeated against the powerful Toronto and Montreal teams of the time.

He still managed 9 shutouts the next year on a piss poor Boston team, bringing the total to 65 shutouts in 6 years before his total meltdown with alcohol reduced him to a mere talented starter instead of Franchise player.

Imagine Sawchuk's records had he not become a raging alcoholic.

if jack adams hadn't messed with sawchuk's mind and putting pressure on him to lose weight and having glenn hall as an up coming, waiting to take sawchuk's place like when harry lumley was traded in 1950 when sawchuk ready for the big time, sawchuk would 've had registered 100 shutouts by 1960...

 

[TANK200]

Nice bait 'n' switch on the stats. The fact is, save % has gone up about 3% or 3 more saves on 100 shots.

Good point. Save percentages should have been expected to increase by 20% from where they were in the late 1980s to today. Thus the average save percentage should now be around 1.080, and goalies should have at least one shutout per game on average. Based on these reasonable statistics, Brodeur's soon to be shutout record will not be at all significant because statistics show that he should probably have at least several hundred already.

 

[JimEIV]

We keep talking "era" but we fail to mention Brodeur has 20 shutouts more than his nearest peer(Hasek) and 25 more than 2nd nearest peer (Belfour). 20 shutouts is no small differene. What is that equal to? 4 or 5 years worth of shutouts to the league average?

After Hasek and Belfour their is no current/recent player in the top 10 -- Hasek is 8 and Belfour is 10. If you go even further down to the top 20 the most recent player in the list is Patrick Roy at 14. So only 4 recent players are even in the top 20.

This is in stark contrast to the points list -- Of the top 20 in career points Only 3 players career didn't exist during the 1980's. I'm not trying to disregard the era factor, but I also think too much is being made of it in this case. If it was simply the "era" shouldn't we see much more domination to the All time shutout list like the Scorers did to the point list in the 1980's?

Another thing that needs to be mentioned; is that his highest shutout total (12) came after the lockout when scoring was up from the 1990's and this was done with one of the weaker groups of Defensemen that ever played in front of Brodeur. Brodeurs Shutouts haven't really ebbed and flowed with the time period.

 

[JimEIV]

The same can be said about Hasek entering the league when he did. He also could have had a different outcome.

This is another incomplete picture that has been stated as fact for far too long.

People talk about Hasek’s career like it was somehow cut short and nothing can be further from the truth. Hasek was 25 years old when he got to North America and his NHL career spanned 16 NHL seasons.

It took Hasek 4 years while in North America to get a Starting gig. Whatever the reasons for that are really irrelevant. His problem really wasn’t when he got here.

On top of that, he was never really a full work load type of goaltender. He only played 70 or more games once in his career –- From the year he won his first Vezina in 1993-94 to the year he won the cup with Detriot in 2001-02 –- Years I consider being Hasek’s Prime – He only averaged 53 (52.666) games a season, where Brodeur averaged over 65 games a season during the same exact time frame.

 

[Dark Shadows]

This is another incomplete picture that has been stated as fact for far too long.

People talk about Hasek’s career like it was somehow cut short and nothing can be further from the truth. Hasek was 25 years old when he got to North America and his NHL career spanned 16 NHL seasons.

It took Hasek 6 years while in North America to get a Starting gig. Whatever the reasons for that are really irrelevant. His problem really wasn’t when he got here.

On top of that, he was never really a full work load type of goaltender. He only played 70 or more games once in his career –- From the year he won his first Vezina in 1993-94 to the year he won the cup with Detriot in 2001-02 –- Years I consider being Hasek’s Prime – He only averaged 53 (52.666) games a season, where Brodeur averaged over 65 games a season during the same exact time frame.

Hasek WAS a stellar goalie back before his NHL career started , A 3 time Golden Stick winner., and only bad luck and the Iron Curtain kept him from starting his career earlier. He was not given a shot early because the Hawks had Belfour and the Sabres had Fuhr.

The MOMENT he was given a shot in the NHL as a starter, he immediately went on to win a Vezina and had one of the most dominant stretches a goaltender could possibly have.

Hate on his workload all you want. The fact of the matter is, his peak/prime play is superior to any goaltender not named Sawchuk.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Hasek WAS a stellar goalie back before his NHL career started , A 3 time Golden Stick winner., and only bad luck and the Iron Curtain kept him from starting his career earlier. He was not given a shot early because the Hawks had Belfour and the Sabres had Fuhr.

The MOMENT he was given a shot in the NHL as a starter, he immediately went on to win a Vezina and had one of the most dominant stretches a goaltender could possibly have.

Hate on his workload all you want. The fact of the matter is, his peak/prime play is superior to any goaltender not named Sawchuk.

all this is true. but this is another one of those "what ifs" that potentially gives players credit for what they didn't do. what if hasek got to NA earlier? what if belfour wasn't already there? or fuhr? if sawchuk wasn't there first, maybe hall starts an extra three seasons and it's his wins record that roy breaks fifty years later. if sean burke doesn't hold out and never gets traded to hartford, maybe brodeur has to be backup for the first few years of his career. if vancouver never hires mike keenan, maybe trevor linden keeps putting up 30 goal seasons and ends up hitting 500 before he reitres. it's a slippery slope that gets increasingly ridiculous the farther down you go.

 

[overpass]

all this is true. but this is another one of those "what ifs" that potentially gives players credit for what they didn't do. what if hasek got to NA earlier? what if belfour wasn't already there? or fuhr? if sawchuk wasn't there first, maybe hall starts an extra three seasons and it's his wins record that roy breaks fifty years later. if sean burke doesn't hold out and never gets traded to hartford, maybe brodeur has to be backup for the first few years of his career. if vancouver never hires mike keenan, maybe trevor linden keeps putting up 30 goal seasons and ends up hitting 500 before he reitres. it's a slippery slope that gets increasingly ridiculous the farther down you go.

Hasek doesn't need what-if credit for something he didn't do before the age of 25, he just needs to be recognized for what he did. He played in the best league available to him and was dominant. Three times the best player, five times the best goalie, and he was regarded as the best goalie outside the NHL. What more do you want him to do in that situation?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Hasek doesn't need what-if credit for something he didn't do before the age of 25, he just needs to be recognized for what he did. He played in the best league available to him and was dominant. Three times the best player, five times the best goalie, and he was regarded as the best goalie outside the NHL. What more do you want him to do in that situation?

agreed completely. what hasek did was phenomenal. we don't need to give him extra credit for starting late. i thought that JimEIV, while his reasoning was slightly off, had a point.

 

[JimEIV]

agreed completely. what hasek did was phenomenal. we don't need to give him extra credit for starting late. i thought that JimEIV, while his reasoning was slightly off, had a point.

What was off? I only stated he had the opportunity of 16 NHL seasons.

Hate on his workload all you want. The fact of the matter is, his peak/prime play is superior to any goaltender not named Sawchuk.

I do hate on his workload. As we've seen over hundreds of examples over shorted periods of time, goaltenders can put up some pretty impressive numbers. But doing it over the long haul is really what it is all about.

If you honestly believe that the lesser workload plays no part into the evaluation I don't know what to say.

Look at the minutes played between Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Sawchuck, and Belfour

Roy 60225
Brodeur 58435
Sawchuck 57228
Belfour 55,696
Hasek 20,220

In an all time sesne, this is like comparing the goalie that just finished a 72 game season with a .915 save% vs one the just completed a 25 game season with a .930% and marveling over the save percentage the guy put up over 25 games....Literally.

 

[seventieslord]

What was off? I only stated he had the opportunity of 16 NHL seasons.




I do hate on his workload. As we've seen over hundreds of examples over shorted periods of time, goaltenders can put up some pretty impressive numbers. But doing it over the long haul is really what it is all about.

If you honestly believe that the lesser workload plays no part into the evaluation I don't know what to say.

Look at the minutes played between Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Sawchuck, and Belfour

Roy 60225
Brodeur 58435
Sawchuck 57228
Belfour 55,696
Hasek 20,220

In an all time sesne, this is like comparing the goalie that just finished a 72 game season with a .915 save% vs one the just completed a 25 game season with a .930% and marveling over the save percentage the guy put up over 25 games....Literally.

20220/60=337

I'm pretty sure Hasek has played more than 337 games worth of minutes.

 

[JimEIV]

20220/60=337

I'm pretty sure Hasek has played more than 337 games worth of minutes.

Im pretty embarresed....I pull his shots against.

His minutes are Minutes 42,826

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

all this is true. but this is another one of those "what ifs" that potentially gives players credit for what they didn't do. what if hasek got to NA earlier? what if belfour wasn't already there? or fuhr? if sawchuk wasn't there first, maybe hall starts an extra three seasons and it's his wins record that roy breaks fifty years later. if sean burke doesn't hold out and never gets traded to hartford, maybe brodeur has to be backup for the first few years of his career. if vancouver never hires mike keenan, maybe trevor linden keeps putting up 30 goal seasons and ends up hitting 500 before he reitres. it's a slippery slope that gets increasingly ridiculous the farther down you go.

It's not what if credit. It's crediting him with similar credits that are given to Tretiak and Holecek.

 

[Dark Shadows]

It's not what if credit. It's crediting him with similar credits that are given to Tretiak and Holecek.

Exactly.

His non-NHL achievements are stellar, and I was under the impression JimEIV was trying to diminish him for not playing as much in the NHL as the other two, when in fact, he was a top goalie in the world even when not in the NHL. Much like Tretiak/Holecek.