The significance of Suter's hit on Gretzky

[Albatros]

What? We aren't talking about Gretzky getting more pts because he missed games. We are talking about, if Gretzky hadn't suffered the back injury, he would have been a better player at the end of his career and would have led to more pts, no need for more games played. Gretzky was dominant until that back injury and this hit, afterwards he was still really good, but he wasn't The Great One anymore.

He was losing one step after another in his final years and that had nothing to do with his early 90s back injury.

 

[Oddbob]

He was losing one step after another in his final years and that had nothing to do with his early 90s back injury.

No he wasn't. His back injury slowed him down a lot.

 

[Albatros]

There was hardly anything left of his skating (or slapper for that matter) when he retired, that was not so immediately after his injuries in the early 1990s. Just didn't have gas left in the tank.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Long story short, Gretzky went from being Gretzky pretty much every day, to being Gretzky for only short bursts at a time. And those bursts got shorter and further between as he got older. This happens to pretty much every player, but the hit definitely coincided with step function change rather than the gradual decline you see with most elite players.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gretzky didn't miss a single game between 1996 and 1998, so he would have scored dozens of more points in his late 30s with no additional ice time. Hard to see how that would realistically happen especially as he didn't really have any defensive duties as things were.

If you completely ignore what this thread is about, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion.

 

[Minar]

He was losing one step after another in his final years and that had nothing to do with his early 90s back injury.

I noticed in 93 when he came back he was a step slower. I think back injuries definitely affected his skating and mobility imo.

 

[crobro]

Suter would be in the HHOF if the hit on 99 didn’t happen

 

[The Panther]

Suter would be in the HHOF if the hit on 99 didn’t happen

No, he wouldn't.

One 2nd-team All Star is not a Hall of Fame career. He was considered a top-5 defenceman once in 16 years. And he was injured when the Flames won the Cup.

 

[crobro]

No, he wouldn't.

One 2nd-team All Star is not a Hall of Fame career. He was considered a top-5 defenceman once in 16 years. And he was injured when the Flames won the Cup.

14 th all time in defense scoring with all 13 players above him all in the HHOF

 

[JianYang]

Suter was a good player, but the first two incidents that pop Into my head are this Gretzky hit, and the cross check to Kariya's face.

 

[The Panther]

Suter was a good player, but the first two incidents that pop Into my head are this Gretzky hit, and the cross check to Kariya's face.

Don't forget this:

 

[JianYang]

Don't forget this:

Yikes, that is nasty. 1987 is before my time. I've only seen video of the final that year, but yeah, that is ugly too

 

[Staniowski]

I watched Gary Suter play a lot, the guy was always dirty. He'll always be remembered for the Lomakin, and especially the Gretzky and Kariya hits, but he did that stuff all the time.

He was also very skilled, excellent on the PP.

But lots of cross-checking from behind, lots of stick work. Generally, he was sneakier dirty than Chelios was.

 

[Staniowski]

There were two major issues with Gretzky and his general decline over his career, and the Suter hit (and other smaller injuries) was one of them. The other was his relative difficulty with improvements in the overall quality of players in the NHL, and its corresponding better team defenses that he had to face.

The NHL improved a lot from the early '80s into the '90s. With improvements in defense, etc., Gretzky's ability to score goals declined a lot, going from an on-pace 94 goals to just over 40 (this all happened before the Suter hit). His ES scoring and overall scoring declined a lot as well.

As a goal-scorer, Gretzky couldn't get to the net (where he scored most of his goals) nearly as easily due to tighter defenses, and that's the main reason his goals fell.

Gretzky didn't adapt as well to the changing NHL as some other stars, like Lemieux and Messier. They were bigger and stronger and better skaters than Gretzky.

The Suter hit had a further big effect, it made his skating much worse, and his goal-scoring and overall play declined further.

He could still play through the '90s, but was a much different player.

 

[The Panther]

There were two major issues with Gretzky and his general decline over his career, and the Suter hit (and other smaller injuries) was one of them. The other was his relative difficulty with improvements in the overall quality of players in the NHL, and its corresponding better team defenses that he had to face.

The NHL improved a lot from the early '80s into the '90s. With improvements in defense, etc., Gretzky's ability to score goals declined a lot, going from an on-pace 94 goals to just over 40 (this all happened before the Suter hit). His ES scoring and overall scoring declined a lot as well.

As a goal-scorer, Gretzky couldn't get to the net (where he scored most of his goals) nearly as easily due to tighter defenses, and that's the main reason his goals fell.

Gretzky didn't adapt as well to the changing NHL as some other stars, like Lemieux and Messier. They were bigger and stronger and better skaters than Gretzky.

The Suter hit had a further big effect, it made his skating much worse, and his goal-scoring and overall play declined further.

He could still play through the '90s, but was a much different player.

This is all nonsense, as everyone already knows.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Nothing really. Gretzky was already in his 30s. You saw what Gretzky was fully. Healthy as an ox in his 20s. Lemieuxs back was far worse and that was since he was 24

 

[Crosby2010]

A couple things about the Suter hit. Gretzky as per usual outsmarts Chelios to get to the puck. Nothing new, he did stuff like this all of the time. However, this is a rare time he doesn't have his head up and is aware of his surroundings. I honestly think he didn't expect Suter to be right there since Chelios was so close to him. That is so unlike Gretzky not to see that sort of thing. And at his size he was never the type that could absorb a hit. This is why he was so smart on the ice and aware of where everyone was.

Others have touched on it already, the even strength scoring went down. His shiftiness took a hit but since he was so smart out there he still could play pretty elite hockey. But after 1991 his EV points vs. PP points were very similar. Other than 1997 and 1998 seasons they were pretty parallel. I have no idea why 1998. 1997 I can see because it was a better team and they did better 5 on 5 but 1998? I don't know.

Anyway, the ironic thing is that Gretzky had the same amount of power play assists in 1999 as he did in 1984 - 27. It shows you just how much his play suffered as a result.

 

[Crosby2010]

There were two major issues with Gretzky and his general decline over his career, and the Suter hit (and other smaller injuries) was one of them. The other was his relative difficulty with improvements in the overall quality of players in the NHL, and its corresponding better team defenses that he had to face.

The NHL improved a lot from the early '80s into the '90s. With improvements in defense, etc., Gretzky's ability to score goals declined a lot, going from an on-pace 94 goals to just over 40 (this all happened before the Suter hit). His ES scoring and overall scoring declined a lot as well.

As a goal-scorer, Gretzky couldn't get to the net (where he scored most of his goals) nearly as easily due to tighter defenses, and that's the main reason his goals fell.

Gretzky didn't adapt as well to the changing NHL as some other stars, like Lemieux and Messier. They were bigger and stronger and better skaters than Gretzky.

The Suter hit had a further big effect, it made his skating much worse, and his goal-scoring and overall play declined further.

He could still play through the '90s, but was a much different player.

He had a 163 point year in 1991. 31 better than anyone else in the NHL. 122 assists. 103 EV points. Someone mentioned that outside of Ovechkin even the greatest goal scorers started slowing down with their goals in the 30s. So that's happening anyway, but with Gretzky I honestly think it was a choice. In 1986 he tried to get two assists per game and did it. He focused on it a bit more. I think his 1991 season is a little bit less than his Oiler years, but not by much. I honestly think it is 90% of what he was as an Oiler. I don't think we realize just how hard it is to maintain a 200-point pace per year. So I think in a way he purposely focused more on his assists and playmaking. Maybe this is that adjustment you are talking about. If that is the case, then he was doing this in the mid 1980s. But he was still a goal scoring threat, even in 1991. Suter just took away a lot of agility he once had.

 

[Staniowski]

He had a 163 point year in 1991. 31 better than anyone else in the NHL. 122 assists. 103 EV points. Someone mentioned that outside of Ovechkin even the greatest goal scorers started slowing down with their goals in the 30s. So that's happening anyway, but with Gretzky I honestly think it was a choice. In 1986 he tried to get two assists per game and did it. He focused on it a bit more. I think his 1991 season is a little bit less than his Oiler years, but not by much. I honestly think it is 90% of what he was as an Oiler. I don't think we realize just how hard it is to maintain a 200-point pace per year. So I think in a way he purposely focused more on his assists and playmaking. Maybe this is that adjustment you are talking about. If that is the case, then he was doing this in the mid 1980s. But he was still a goal scoring threat, even in 1991. Suter just took away a lot of agility he once had.

Yes, the Gary Suter hit did have a big effect on Gretzky's skating and, as a result, his overall game.

But, there were also big changes to his game before the hit. I don't think his game declined so much (although it did some), it was more that the NHL became more difficult to score, and it affected Gretzky more than some other players (e.g. Messier).

He didn't just decide he didn't want to score goals anymore. He could still score when the opportunity was there, but it was a lot more difficult for him to score goals later in the '80s. There were fewer open spaces, fewer lanes, more focused defense by his opponents. He didn't have Messier's speed, he didn't have Lemieux's shooting strength, etc.

It's true that he focused on playmaking eventually, but it's not because that's what he wanted; he did it because he couldn't score goals like he could in the early '80s.

 

[The Panther]

It's true that he focused on playmaking eventually, but it's not because that's what he wanted; he did it because he couldn't score goals like he could in the early '80s.

His goal scoring in 1987, 1988 (before mid-season injury), and 1989 was higher than 1986, 1981, and 1980.

In 1987, he scored 41 goals in 40 games. In 1988, 30 in 37. In 1989, 50 in 65. In 1991, he was fourth in ES goals.

 

[Crosby2010]

Yes, the Gary Suter hit did have a big effect on Gretzky's skating and, as a result, his overall game.

But, there were also big changes to his game before the hit. I don't think his game declined so much (although it did some), it was more that the NHL became more difficult to score, and it affected Gretzky more than some other players (e.g. Messier).

He didn't just decide he didn't want to score goals anymore. He could still score when the opportunity was there, but it was a lot more difficult for him to score goals later in the '80s. There were fewer open spaces, fewer lanes, more focused defense by his opponents. He didn't have Messier's speed, he didn't have Lemieux's shooting strength, etc.

It's true that he focused on playmaking eventually, but it's not because that's what he wanted; he did it because he couldn't score goals like he could in the early '80s.

I've always just felt that the standard Gretzky set back in the early 1980s and mid 1980s is one that is impossible to maintain for very long. The fact he did it for 12 years up until 1991 (goal scoring for him did dip a bit, yes) is actually quite Ruthian when you think of it. I think the biggest problem with Gretzky is that so often he is competing with himself. We look at 163 points, or 168 in 1989 and compare it to when he was routinely getting 200. Yet no one in history other than Lemieux has ever hit 160 points in a season. I think this is what magnifies things for Gretzky a lot more. His declines always seem more pronounced because his peak is just mind blowing. There is a bigger "fall" with him. We also have to factor in that the Kings management made some horrible moves after they got him. They failed to build around him. So that doesn't help. His father Walter getting the brain aneurysm right before (?) the 1991-'92 season I would suspect hurt too.

 

[Acallabeth]

There were three Gretzky back-related injuries in 1990 to 1991. (I previously detailed them in another thread and showed the video of each one, but I can't find it right now.)

March 22, 1990 -- vs. the Islanders in L.A., Gretzky was sandwiched between two players, wrenching his back. He had to leave the game and didn't play again until the playoffs (missing 7.5 games).

April 22, 1990 -- vs. the Oilers, game three, in L.A., Gretzky was crunched from behind by Steve Smith and re-wrenched his back. He left the game, and that was the end of his season.

Sept. 14, 1991 -- vs. Team USA, Gretzky was nailed from behind by Gary Suter, wrenching his back. He left the game and didn't return for game two.

The September 1991 injury clearly had a massive impact on Gretzky's physicality, as his even-strength production took a massive nosedive from exactly this moment onward (from around 110 ES points a season to 60 overnight). His prime decisively ended with the Suter hit.

I've always wondered: what's the reason something like that didn't happen earlier? Why did it happen in 90-91? Did the players around Gretzky get fast enough so they could finally catch him? Were those just 1st inevitable signs of a decline? Did Gretzky become overconfident in his elusiveness? Was the 1st incident just bad luck, and then Wayne came back too early?

 

[The Panther]

I've always wondered: what's the reason something like that didn't happen earlier? Why did it happen in 90-91? Did the players around Gretzky get fast enough so they could finally catch him? Were those just 1st inevitable signs of a decline? Did Gretzky become overconfident in his elusiveness? Was the 1st incident just bad luck, and then Wayne came back too early?

Maybe just good/bad luck, I dunno.

Wayne was famously nailed by minor-leaguer McCreary in 1981. He had shoulder-problems in 1983-84 (playing through it for a while, but then missing six games) .He was fatigued in the latter-half of 1986-87 for the first time, and went on some vitamin-regimen, but then was concussed (by Hawerchuk) with his head thrown to the ice in round two, and nailed by Delorme or one of those Detroit D's in the next round while making a pass on a game-winning goal. The following December of '87 he tripped over Kjell Samuelsson while scoring a goal and injured his knee, missing 13 games. (Came back and was clipped in the eyeball by Kurri's stick, thus missing another three games.)

Maybe it was just lucky that by 1990 he had only missed 2+ games in a season twice. But, then again, the NHL was getting bigger and faster and Gretzky was hitting 30, so not getting any quicker.

But this is why after September 1991, you rarely see Gretzky drive to the net unless the lane is completely open. Self-protection.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Nothing really.

Nothing except about 40ish ESP a year.

 

[Hasbro]

Is that Michael Ironside narrating?