The San Jose Sharks are horror-bad

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The problem with this mentality is it all but guarantees bad teams will remain bad because they have virtually no way of improving. Let's say such a system was in place right now. What does San Jose do to dig themselves out of the grave? They'd have no "star" player to look forward to after what will be a humiliating season and won't be a UFA destination due to being in a rebuild phase.

Basically, they'll just be stuck in purgatory until they get lucky with later draft picks.

As noted above, the draft has nothing to do with "rewarding" bad teams but redistributing talent.
In general that explains the rationale of the draft fairly well. However, the Sharks dug themselves their grave on purpose in full knowledge of the fact that you can in fact pretty easily dig yourself out of it again in the NHL. It's not like they just naturally kinda got bad due to lack of resources and support like a bad European soccer team. The Sharks being this bad is part of a plan, not the failure of a plan.
 
The lottery is worse for league integrity. If a team really is the worst, they should have the highest pick to get back on the road to respectability sooner.

It would be a damm bad look for the league to reward something like this.

Do you want to start seeing teams being this garbage every year?
The solution is the NHL going out on a limb and implementing the Gold Plan. Draft order is determined by how many points earned after being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. The worst teams would still have a leg up since they'd be eliminated earlier, but they'd still have to remain competitive enough to earn the highest pick.

Fans could actually cheer for their teams to win games down the stretch. The race for the playoffs down the stretch would coincide with the race for the 1st overall. All the games matter. Imagine a team already well out of it at the deadline becoming a buyer to ensure they earn more points than the teams around them. It would certainly generate more buzz around the league.
 
In general that explains the rationale of the draft fairly well. However, the Sharks dug themselves their grave on purpose in full knowledge of the fact that you can in fact pretty easily dig yourself out of it again in the NHL. It's not like they just naturally kinda got bad due to lack of resources and support like a bad European soccer team. The Sharks being this bad is part of a plan, not the failure of a plan.
They earned their only top 3 draft pick in the last 26 years when they didn't even own their own draft pick.

How exactly where they supposed to improve from that point with no cap space and no assets?
 
I don't really care much for a system where Manchester City wins 5 out of 6 EPL titles (the other year they came in 2nd). I mean good for them and all, but it's not like they will pay for their success later because they can basically outbid their rivals for players.
 
People are desperately trying to find solutions to an imagined problem again. Or they just want to complain.

Yes, the Sharks have blown it up after failing for years both in drafting good players and trading draft picks for good players. They had a shit team, one of the worst prospect pipelines in the league, and not much draft capital. So they blew it up. Of course they blew it up. They got value for the only players that could net them value. And then one of their only good remaining players got injured.

No matter what we do with the draft, people will complain. Add more lottery rounds? The "naturally occurring" worse teams will miss out on better prospects, and "undeserving" better teams may get a prospect infusion they didn't need. Get rid of the lottery? Screeching about tanking. Etc.

Just let bad teams be bad for a while, so they can use their top draft picks to become the next Tampa Bay, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or the next Edmonton, Buffalo, Ottawa, or the next Toronto, or Atlanta, or whatever of hundreds of different outcomes from a team being really bad for a few years.

And until then, have your team go out and beat up on the shitty team. Collect the free points. We have divisional playoff seeding, so that's taken care of for the most part. This only sucks for the Sharks fans, and they seem to be the posters whining the least in this thread.
 
In general that explains the rationale of the draft fairly well. However, the Sharks dug themselves their grave on purpose in full knowledge of the fact that you can in fact pretty easily dig yourself out of it again in the NHL. It's not like they just naturally kinda got bad due to lack of resources and support like a bad European soccer team. The Sharks being this bad is part of a plan, not the failure of a plan.
If it were easy to dig yourself out of the grave by tanking for draft picks Edmonton would have more than 4 series wins after drafting 1st 4 times in the last 15 years, a Toronto would have more than 1 series win in the last 7 years since winning the lottery and it wouldn't have taken Colorado a decade to make it out of the second round after winning their lottery

Winning lotteries for high picks doesn't guarantee winning will follow, it only aides talent barren franchises in reestablishing a more respectable foothold above the basement of the league, it still takes skillfully and competent management to forge a winning roster around that high end talent, not to mention to identify and select the correct players in the first place

Also, yes, the Sharks DID naturally get bad due to poor asset management and players aging, they tried to make the playoffs in 2020 and finished last in the west when they didn't own their own draft pick, now they've just applied an accelerant to the fire

The solution is the NHL going out on a limb and implementing the Gold Plan. Draft order is determined by how many points earned after being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. The worst teams would still have a leg up since they'd be eliminated earlier, but they'd still have to remain competitive enough to earn the highest pick.

Fans could actually cheer for their teams to win games down the stretch. The race for the playoffs down the stretch would coincide with the race for the 1st overall. All the games matter. Imagine a team already well out of it at the deadline becoming a buyer to ensure they earn more points than the teams around them. It would certainly generate more buzz around the league.
All this would do is guarantee the worst of the worst teams will never have the opportunity to aquire and develop high end talent and as such will never be competitive draws in their home markets, it's a non starter from a business perspective
 
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Why should poorly run organizations be rewarded?

Don't "reward" them then? But stop complaining about how they are so embarassing for the league and having such bad teams in your league is such a terrible thing. Unless you believe the players and coaches who are going to be long gone before any of these "rewards" amount to anything are actively sabotaging their production and potential future pay for the sake of this apparent organizational idea of tanking. The fear of the Sharks franchise not getting a high draft pick is somehow going to make Anthony Duclair and Filip Zadina suddenly decide to produce at a high level? David Quinn is suddenly going to bust out his secret coaching tricks that he was intentionally hiding from us?

Last year, they were on pace to get the best odds for Bedard and decided to win a meaningless game near the end when the teams above them lost. Where was the "reward" for that?
 
The solution is the NHL going out on a limb and implementing the Gold Plan. Draft order is determined by how many points earned after being mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. The worst teams would still have a leg up since they'd be eliminated earlier, but they'd still have to remain competitive enough to earn the highest pick.

Fans could actually cheer for their teams to win games down the stretch. The race for the playoffs down the stretch would coincide with the race for the 1st overall. All the games matter. Imagine a team already well out of it at the deadline becoming a buyer to ensure they earn more points than the teams around them. It would certainly generate more buzz around the league.

We've been over this in plenty of other threads. Players aren't going to be laying it all on the line so that they can help draft position. The solution would be to remove the incentive of so many teams trying to improve their draft stock with the lottery. Remove the lottery. Easy.
 
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We've been over this in plenty of other threads. Players aren't going to be laying it all on the line so that they can help draft position. The solution would be to remove the incentive of so many teams trying to improve their draft stock with the lottery. Remove the lottery. Easy.
And they're laying it all on the line now? Unless the argument is players will actually try even less, which is a big leap, I fail to see how the actual on-ice product would deteriorate (even more).
 
And they're laying it all on the line now? Unless the argument is players will actually try even less, which is a big leap, I fail to see how the actual on-ice product would deteriorate (even more).
The roster has 2 reclamation project goalies, 8 bottom pair defensemen, 1 healthy top 6 forward and a coach who has never made the playoffs

Yes, this is literally the Sharks trying their best

There is already an incentive for winning, it's a playoff berth and subsequently a Stanley Cup, all players and coaches want those rewards, this team simply isn't good enough to realistically challenge for those rewards

Last years Ducks laid it all on the ice too, they were just a bad team, this year's Sharks are the same story
 
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The roster has 2 reclamation project goalies, 8 bottom pair defensemen, 1 healthy top 6 forward and a coach who has never made the playoffs

Yes, this is literally the Sharks trying their best

There is already an incentive for winning, it's a playoff berth and subsequently a Stanley Cup, all players and coaches want those rewards, this team simply isn't good enough to realistically challenge for those rewards

Last years Ducks laid it all on the ice too, they were just a bad team, this year's Sharks are the same story
"Now" in the general sense, as in, shitty teams playing in March. But your point is still taken.

It's more of an organizational-approach thing. What happens on the ice is it's own thing. But GM's might be more hesitant to shamelessly gut their rosters if their team ended up so bad they couldn't get points when it mattered.
 
"Now" in the general sense, as in, shitty teams playing in March. But your point is still taken.

It's more of an organizational-approach thing. What happens on the ice is it's own thing. But GM's might be more hesitant to shamelessly gut their rosters if their team ended up so bad they couldn't get points when it mattered.

No GM is doing that.
 
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The Sharks have been that team that can never get over the hump for 2 decades now. I am not at all surprised they have reached the bottom of the barrel after seeing so much elite talent come and go, and pissing away so many promising seasons.
 
"Now" in the general sense, as in, shitty teams playing in March. But your point is still taken.
It's only natural that players will mail it in to some extent when the incentives of winning aren't there (once they're eliminated from the playoffs and can't compete for a cup)

But the idea of playing extra hard so some talented teenager can come take your job also doesn't make any sense

It's definitely an incentive for the fans and the management but not for the players on the ice, they wouldn't care at all what their play means for their organization's draft position

If they did the incentive would already exist and they could just intentionally throw games at the end of the year but they don't, Noah Gregor scored a hat trick at the end of the year last season that literally cost the Sharks the Bedard slot in the lottery and he didn't even recieve a QO from San Jose
 
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The Sharks have been that team that can never get over the hump for 2 decades now. I am not at all surprised they have reached the bottom of the barrel after seeing so much elite talent come and go, and pissing away so many promising seasons.

It's the cycle of the sport though. Almost without fail, a team will crest and the decisions they make to stay at that level, to win, hurt their future product as they make rental moves or bleed off draft picks in an effort to push for a championship. The Sharks retained their important players over that time and made deals to try to improve themselves. And that's why they don't have a guy like Norris as their #2 center right now. The idea that they planned to be bad or that any team should be punished for the consequences of trying to win in the recent past is what blows my mind as some have asserted. They did try. This is the darkness that came from those efforts and is part of the cycle of any team. So many seem in such denial about how the nature of competitive sports works rather than accepting the reality of a draft based upon actual standings as the method to refresh struggling franchises.
 
The 15-16 Leafs had a goal differential of -48 for the whole season.

The 23-24 Sharks have a goal differential of -34 after 10 games.

That Leafs team was shit but they were a pretty normal tanking team, coached with some structure by Babcock, and Phaneuf-Rielly-Gardiner-Polak with a Reimer/Bernier goaltending tandem isn't an embarrassing defensive group. GAA was under 3.00.

Hertl is the only player on that SJ roster last night who I'd describe as anything other than a replacement-level forward or a #6-7 defender.
MS - wasn't the a 2015-16 Leafs a tear down rebuild? They might not have torn it down as completely as the Sharks, but the Sharks had that much less talent on the roster after trying to take one more kick at the can after a great 15-20 year run as a serious contender.

Is the Karlsson trade that much different from the Kessel deal? Odd that both were dealt to the Pens. A player that the teams couldn't build around and the organization was essentially starting over.

The fundamental difference is the Leafs had actual talent in the pipeline and the Sharks don't. The 2015-16 Leafs had been bad for a while and had Kadri, JVR, Reilly & Nylander on the roster and Marner in the pipeline as a solid group to continue to build around. The Sharks have made some back breaking deals (not protecting the 1st in the Karlsson trade to start), and really are still very much at the start of the rebuild.

I do get that the Sharks are epic bad - but just that the actual approach the teams took weren't as different as some seem to think. Some of the folks who complained about the Hawks trading Debrincat last year to do a tear down rebuild conveniently forgot that the Leafs did the same thing with Kessel.
 
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It's more of an organizational-approach thing. What happens on the ice is it's own thing. But GM's might be more hesitant to shamelessly gut their rosters if their team ended up so bad they couldn't get points when it mattered
They might, but all it would mean is that undesirable and underperforming organizations would no longer have a reliable avenue to becoming competitive and would serve as fodder for the rest of the league for longer stratches of time

If the Coyotes from 2013-2023 didn't have access to premium draft picks what would they have done to even attempt to become competitive?

They aren't a free agent destination, they wouldn't have the premier assets to trade for high end talent, and they wouldn't have had a foundational group of players to build around

They would have still missed the playoffs every year only they wouldn't have been good enough to win games late to improve their draft position, they'd just be doomed to be awful for all eternity
 
No GM is doing that.

If the argument here is GM's don't still strategically sell-off assets to give their teams better odds in the draft, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

It's definitely an incentive for the fans and the management but not for the players on the ice, they wouldn't care at all what their play means for their organization's draft position

That's pretty much where I'm coming from I think. If it doesn't affect the play, then why not? It will affect how the org conducts its business and is better for the fans. Right now NHL is straddling an in-between grey area which no ones seems to particularly like.
 
People are desperately trying to find solutions to an imagined problem again. Or they just want to complain.

Yes, the Sharks have blown it up after failing for years both in drafting good players and trading draft picks for good players. They had a shit team, one of the worst prospect pipelines in the league, and not much draft capital. So they blew it up. Of course they blew it up. They got value for the only players that could net them value. And then one of their only good remaining players got injured.

No matter what we do with the draft, people will complain. Add more lottery rounds? The "naturally occurring" worse teams will miss out on better prospects, and "undeserving" better teams may get a prospect infusion they didn't need. Get rid of the lottery? Screeching about tanking. Etc.

Just let bad teams be bad for a while, so they can use their top draft picks to become the next Tampa Bay, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or the next Edmonton, Buffalo, Ottawa, or the next Toronto, or Atlanta, or whatever of hundreds of different outcomes from a team being really bad for a few years.

And until then, have your team go out and beat up on the shitty team. Collect the free points. We have divisional playoff seeding, so that's taken care of for the most part. This only sucks for the Sharks fans, and they seem to be the posters whining the least in this thread.
People can live with 'rebuilding'/tanking to a degree. If you have a team that gets blown out every night because they put a minor league product out, however, it's going to raise eyebrows.

It's obvious that the NHL seeks to avoid that kind of thing because a number of adjustments made over the years were designed to incentivize teams not to do it.

You could say that the Sharks might ruin a good thing by overdoing it to the point where the league can't ignore it. We'll have to see how the rest of the season goes.
 
That's pretty much where I'm coming from I think. If it doesn't affect the play, then why not? It will affect how the org conducts its business and is better for the fans. Right now NHL is straddling an in-between grey area which no ones seems to particularly like.
It would effect play because the basement of the league would become so bereft of high end talent there would be 3-5 teams every year that look like this year's Sharks, the difference is they would have no avenue to escape the futility
 
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If the argument here is GM's don't still strategically sell-off assets to give their teams better odds in the draft, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here.

You do grasp that a team trying to build for the near term will trade players for futures and that is one of the established tenants of how roster construction is done in this league, right?
 
The thing is they didn't. They just didn't pan out. Goldobin was a bust, Mueller was a bust, Merkley was a bust and then you had Timo. the 2016 pick, Norris and Charlie Coyle were the only ones they did trade in a ten year span.
Regardless if the picks were traded or guys that didn't end up making the NHL - the results the same - LOFT (lack of f***** talent) on the roster when those roster spots open up, which then means that a team likely tries to fill holes with overpriced UFA's, or can't let guys leave that they should because there is no one to fill those minutes.

That Sharks drafted late a 15 year stretch, and then severely misplayed their hand when it came to rebuild by trading for Karlsson. I think they're on the right approach now, even if there is going to be a REALLY painful couple of years.
 
And they're laying it all on the line now? Unless the argument is players will actually try even less, which is a big leap, I fail to see how the actual on-ice product would deteriorate (even more).

The most simple and elegant solution is to give the worst team the best draft pick. Any 'innovation' on this strategy is just a fancy way to give better picks to teams which aren't as bad.

Any model with that as the result has the possibility to death spiral a team. The NHL has no interest in creating an existential crisis to its MEMBERS. The teams are the NHL.
 
You do grasp that a team trying to build for the near term will trade players for futures and that is one of the established tenants of how roster construction is done in this league, right?
If we're going to be snippy about it, you do grasp that there's a relative scale to teams selling off assets to rebuild vs choosing to ice an AHL roster and passing it off as an NHL product like Grier has done with the Sharks this season?
 

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