The Roster Thread, Summer 2024

[TageGod]

He gave the team 8 years instead of 7, which is a big deal. That's a UFA year.

Power held firm on only 7 years, which was not a team friendly stance compared to Sanderson.

Also, Sanderson is a much more complete player -- so far, Power bring only offense. I'd much prefer Sanderson at this point.

Here is the thing, Power was massively underrated last year, and continues to be. The eye test showed some breakdowns, and he isn't physical enough, but was largely good last year in the D zone. You are completely ignoring his elite breakout and transition.

 

[Beerz]

Here is the thing, Power was massively underrated last year, and continues to be. The eye test showed some breakdowns, and he isn't physical enough, but was largely good last year in the D zone. You are completely ignoring his elite breakout and transition.

It's like you guys only think break out and transition is the only part of defense. He is very good at those things... but he is very bad when other team has the puck.

 

[jc17]

It's like you guys only think break out and transition is the only part of defense. He is very good at those things... but he is very bad when other team has the puck.

I think a lot of the rating/impact/xAboveReplacement stats value the transition pretty highly which is why people are so high on him. And it makes sense to value things that are highly correlated with winning. Risto could defend pretty well 1v1 and brought physicality which is why he was probably overrated by ours and other front offices

With that said, I agree that we need more from power's overall game. Being content with good, is not the mentality we want from this team.

A hallmark of lousy teams in any venue is not pushing your top people to be better just because they're already better than some other people around them.

Also, Paul H caught soooooo much flak for calling him soft, but honestly I don't think he was wrong. Luckily that doesnt make him a bad player, and I don't think hes doomed to be for his career, but hes a 1OA pick and it shouldn't be controversial to want him to develop areas of weakness

 

[MOGlLNY]

It's like you guys only think break out and transition is the only part of defense. He is very good at those things... but he is very bad when other team has the puck.

You know who else was really bad when the other team had the puck until recently? Our best player.

It’s defense. It takes time to pick up and learn at the NHL level. It’s not a forward where it can be a drag and drop situation. Victor Hedman took until his 4th or 5th season to really become a force in both ends.

 

[Mattilaus]

Puckpedia has them with this: $8,449,484

Ah HA! So we DID need to buyout Skinner because we needed the extra 551k in cap space! It all makes sense now!

 

[Djp]

Joe Marino suggested a trade for Laine the other day and I think it's a great idea. Yes he is a bit of a prima donna but he he produces and only has two years left on his contract. If he ends up being a problem, you aren't stuck with him long term.

I think there's a chance if he gets on a winning team in the right situation he may settle in and be a good teammate. If he came to Buffalo the expectations wouldn't be sky high and I think with the added leadership with Ruff and some of the players it could be a low key, low pressure situation for him.

IMO the best part of a move like this would be the domino effect it would have on our forward lines. Players would not be asked to play above their role. I think a move like this could turn this team into a force quickly if the defense and goaltending end up being a strength like we think they will.

Laine Thompson Tuch
Peterka Cozens Quinn
Zucker McLeod Benson
Malenstyn Krebs/Lafferty Greenway

That looks like a very formidable forward group to me.

Define cheap.

Edit: I've been thinking about Laine too. He may be the only legitimate top six candidate that could be had. I expect Columbus is going to want a 1st for him. Honestly, they're probably going to ask for more than that. But, they might be willing to let him go for a 1st.

Maybe if you considered it an early rental . . . .

. . . if you're willing to roll the dice.

The issue is cap in 25/26. I project with resigning RFAs and 1M for rest of roster they may have only 4M in space for a 13/7/2 roster

They would need to move 25/26 salary like Peterka or byram next summer. Not saying for Laine but it could be in another deal

 

[Djp]

Yes he could've given Jake DeBrusk 7 years at 6M+, but didn't want to. Not sure why fans who spent the last 4+ years complaining about the Skinner/Okposo deals wanted him to add another contract like that.

We seen what the trade market is like. Teams don't want to give up their good players. Matt Savoie got back McLeod in a trade. Was rumored that several teams declined trades involving Savoie. Carolina being one of them for Jack Drury. None of the popular top 6 targets got traded. Most of them are already being resigned long term.

Fans just got very delusional with what was possible this off season when I see comments about not signing Stamkos or not trading for Cirelli/Konecny/Ehlers etc..

What was the source on several teams?

Debrusk I did not want to touch even before term/AAV

95%+ players dont mert the cap hit/ROI when they are 32+

Yes, it is the fans that are delusional. Not the front office of the team with the longest NHL playoff drought of all time, entering the season with huge amounts of cap space (again!).

The only reason for the space is Skinner buy out.

 

[TehDoak]

The only reason for the space is Skinner buy out.

IF they don't buyout skinner they aren't signing Zucker.

So, 1.44M for skinner dead for Skinner + 5M for Zucker = 6.44M

vs 9M for Skinner

So we have 2.56M more in space now because of the skinner buyout.

So instead of ~7.5M in space after Krebs we would have had ~5M in space.

 

[toddkaz]

Most underrated off-season signing(not trade)

Sam Lafferty?

What do people think?

 

[elchud]

Most underrated off-season signing(not trade)

Sam Lafferty?

What do people think?

I actually think the 12th spot is up for grabs between him and Krebs. I think Mal and NAK have the 4th line wings locked up.

NAK signing I was really happy with

 

[Der Jaeger]

I don't think Buffalo should trade for Laine just because he's reportedly available and Buffalo wants to add a top 6 forward. I think he's a bad fit.

Laine has a big frame and could be a power forward, but that's not his game. He's a righty who plays the same spot as Thompson on the power play, so that's a logjam. He doesn't play in front of the net, which Buffalo needs.

This type of trade is just a trade to make a trade. I don't see the fit, at all.

 

[zenthusiast]

There’s certainly something to be said for good teams winning by finding ways to paper over the deficiencies of imperfect but talented players, but I don’t see this franchise as ready for that challenge yet

 

[Beerz]

You know who else was really bad when the other team had the puck until recently? Our best player.

It’s defense. It takes time to pick up and learn at the NHL level. It’s not a forward where it can be a drag and drop situation. Victor Hedman took until his 4th or 5th season to really become a force in both ends.

Dahlin had bad moments.. he wasn't bad. And he also didn't have a Dahlin ahead of him. Power looks like he has no interest in learning to play D. I don't have much hope for him on the defensive side.

I would love to be wrong.

 

[Beerz]

I think a lot of the rating/impact/xAboveReplacement stats value the transition pretty highly which is why people are so high on him. And it makes sense to value things that are highly correlated with winning. Risto could defend pretty well 1v1 and brought physicality which is why he was probably overrated by ours and other front offices

With that said, I agree that we need more from power's overall game. Being content with good, is not the mentality we want from this team.

A hallmark of lousy teams in any venue is not pushing your top people to be better just because they're already better than some other people around them.

Also, Paul H caught soooooo much flak for calling him soft, but honestly I don't think he was wrong. Luckily that doesnt make him a bad player, and I don't think hes doomed to be for his career, but hes a 1OA pick and it shouldn't be controversial to want him to develop areas of weakness

I agree. I don't need him to be Pronger but I do need him to engage. Struggling mentally with the game is one thing for a young player... not doing the easily correct able things is another. The work has to be put in. We should at least be seeing an attempt at engaging opponents with the puck.

 

[Der Jaeger]

There’s certainly something to be said for good teams winning by finding ways to paper over the deficiencies of imperfect but talented players, but I don’t see this franchise as ready for that challenge yet

I think this point is important. Some teams can take on players, which others cannot.

Buffalo played with this concept bringing in Kane and Bogosian when the Sabres were full of young players. That backfired. Adams largely avoided this situation.

A team like Carolina is far better positioned to take on a player like Laine. They are a veteran team with a strong veteran head coach. Their identity is established. They've got a roster full of players who do the things Laine doesn't. They don't have a big right handed shot on the power play.

Columbus - Carolina could be a good combo for a Laine trade.

Buffalo isn't ready for that yet.

 

[Djp]

IF they don't buyout skinner they aren't signing Zucker.

So, 1.44M for skinner dead for Skinner + 5M for Zucker = 6.44M

vs 9M for Skinner

So we have 2.56M more in space now because of the skinner buyout.

So instead of ~7.5M in space after Krebs we would have had ~5M in space.

Right now they have 8.5M in space
1.445 for skinner buy out dead space.
Add that to the 8.5M s?and you have about $10M with Skinner full $9M means they have $1M in space.

Puckpedia has Levi- whst is around what Krebs gets

The space is due Skinner contract biyout and they still sign zucker

 

[DapperCam]

That has nothing to do with the reality of the FA/Trade market. If you thought that Stamkos was interested in coming to Buffalo or that guys like Cirelli were actually available, you are delusional. No Top 6 F were actually traded & most of the popular names on here like Buch or Konecny extended with their own teams. We will see Ehlers do the same.

We could have signed an additional middle-6 winger and possibly upgraded on Jokiharju with the cap space we have left. Players don't need to be "impact" players to improve the team. A player like NAK or Lafferty would be pushed to 13F, and a player like Clifton or Jokiharju would get pushed to 7D.

So when Tuch and/or Samuelsson have their annual injuries we have the depth to fill in their spots with actual NHL players rather than calling up Brett Murray or Kale Clague to play significant minutes.

I'm pretty sure Adams just assumed he'd be able to swing a trade and failed. Which isn't a big surprise because he hasn't shown to be a very good GM to this point. There are zero excuses for not maximizing the skill level of the team in an attempt to make the playoffs, and sitting on a huge pile of cap space.

 

[joshjull]

I can't speak for everyone's thoughts, but my "narrative" is that since covid Pegula has decided to cut costs in a variety of ways. He settled on a guy that can push the "we need patience for guys to develop during (yet another) re-build" to fans and media, to justify being around the cap floor for several years. He's been "efficient" with both on-ice and off-ice costs, which ultimately I don't demonize him for as a fan of capitalism and free will. He can do what he wants but I won't hesitate to call it it what it is. I also don't assume he'll continue operating this way forever, but I can't predict when he will go back to max spending either. The way the franchise and fans base have been kicked in the dirt, it's got to change soon.

But that narrative is a false one.

Pegula’s “economic and efficient” comments came Right after the front office was gutted by Adams during the 2020 offseason. The next season was NOT Adams doing a rebuild with a youth heavy roster. It was Krueger/Adams spending near the upper limit (1-2mil shy of it) in an attempt to put a winner together. They spent 19mil above the lower limit in a season with almost no revenue due to the pandemic. That season was the exact opposite of Pegula’s comments and easily the least “economic and efficient” season of his tenure as owner.

After that season imploded and Adams took full control of hockey ops was when the rebuild started. There is no direct connection between Pegulas 2020 offseason comments and the rebuild Adams embarked on.

It’s crazy to me how many posters just memory hole the 2021 Covid season when discussing spending. That year is a complete repudiation of the idea that Pegula decided during the 2020 offseason to no longer spend money.

Posters also talk about Pegula imposing an “internal budget”.

Our payroll since the 2020 offseason.

2021 -> Near upper limit (19mil above lower limit)
21-22 -> near lower limit
22-23 -> near lower limit
23-24 -> at midpoint (11-12mil above lower limit)
Next year -> Above midpoint (16mil or so above lower limit after Krebs deal)

If there is an internal budget, what is it based on? There should be some sort of financial common thread you and others can point to over those 5 seasons that tells us what it is. Examples would be things like consistently spending near the lower limit as many posters frequently assert. But there is no such through line with our payroll, Simply not spending to the upper limit is not evidence there is an internal budget.

There were definitely “hockey decisions” though that very much explains the up, down, down, then up and up again spending on those 5 payrolls. Tried to build a winner (year 1), rebuild with youth/development (Years 2+3) and pay for the fruits of years 2+3 (Years 4+5).

 

[Fjordy]

MacKinnon ran the most in the NHL last season, 483 km. Dahlin is 2nd, 481,6 km.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

But that narrative is a false one.

Pegula’s “economic and efficient” comments came Right after the front office was gutted by Adams during the 2020 offseason. The next season was NOT Adams doing a rebuild with a youth heavy roster. It was Krueger/Adams spending near the upper limit (1-2mil shy of it) in an attempt to put a winner together. They spent 19mil above the lower limit in a season with almost no revenue due to the pandemic. That season was the exact opposite of Pegula’s comments and easily the least “economic and efficient” season of his tenure as owner.

After that season imploded and Adams took full control of hockey ops was when the rebuild started. There is no direct connection between Pegulas 2020 offseason comments and the rebuild Adams embarked on.

It’s crazy to me how many posters just memory hole the 2021 Covid season when discussing spending. That year is a complete repudiation of the idea that Pegula decided during the 2020 offseason to no longer spend money.

Posters also talk about Pegula imposing an “internal budget”.

Our payroll since the 2020 offseason.

2021 -> Near upper limit (19mil above lower limit)
21-22 -> near lower limit
22-23 -> near lower limit
23-24 -> at midpoint (11-12mil above lower limit)
Next year -> Above midpoint (16mil or so above lower limit after Krebs deal)

If there is an internal budget, what is it based on? There should be some sort of financial common thread you and others can point to over those 5 seasons that tells us what it is. Examples would be things like consistently spending near the lower limit as many posters frequently assert. But there is no such through line with our payroll, Simply not spending to the upper limit is not evidence there is an internal budget.

There were definitely “hockey decisions” though that very much explains the up, down, down, then up and up again spending on those 5 payrolls. Tried to build a winner (year 1), rebuild with youth/development (Years 2+3) and pay for the fruits of years 2+3 (Years 4+5).

Ok, one off-season later the cuts went deep. There doesn't need to be a direct connection to whatever it was Pegula said and how they spent to the cap anyway. It all goes together in some kind of way, and that way went down and stayed down for a couple more years. Don't want to blame Pegula and say there were hockey reasons for that? Ok, then it was KA making penny-wise, pound-foolish decisions. I don't care how the share of stupid/cheap/inexperienced pie slices pan out in the venn diagram.

 

[Irie]

delete

 

[MarkusKetterer]

MacKinnon ran the most in the NHL last season, 483 km. Dahlin is 2nd, 481,6 km.

Lazy ass Dahlin

 

[TommyDangles]

We could have signed an additional middle-6 winger and possibly upgraded on Jokiharju with the cap space we have left. Players don't need to be "impact" players to improve the team. A player like NAK or Lafferty would be pushed to 13F, and a player like Clifton or Jokiharju would get pushed to 7D.

So when Tuch and/or Samuelsson have their annual injuries we have the depth to fill in their spots with actual NHL players rather than calling up Brett Murray or Kale Clague to play significant minutes.

I'm pretty sure Adams just assumed he'd be able to swing a trade and failed. Which isn't a big surprise because he hasn't shown to be a very good GM to this point. There are zero excuses for not maximizing the skill level of the team in an attempt to make the playoffs, and sitting on a huge pile of cap space.

To sign that additional middle 6 winger it would look like the Toffoli contract. Not giving that out would be the smart thing. The guys you suggested are barely upgrades, but have a big price tag. Giving Wennberg 2 years 5M is just dumb. Anything over a year for players in that tier is just a big no.

Because they like Clifton? If you're spending money it should be someone that's a clear upgrade hence an "impact player". Not the same tier. Just shuffling deck chairs at that point. Clifton is someone that will look better under Ruff.

Why would Clague/Murray have to play significant minutes? Krebs is our 13thF. Kulich/Rosen would be called up before them. On D you have Gilbert as 7, RyJo as 8. Clague/Murray are so far down the depth chart.

Adams did swing a trade. We overhauled the bottom 6. Got a 3C who can win faceoffs.

Sorry he didn't make you happy by signing some 30 year old winger until 2030.

 

[zenthusiast]

*beating a horse that’s been dead for a year and change* they should have traded for neiderreiter

 

[Butt Ox]

Most underrated off-season signing(not trade)

Sam Lafferty?

What do people think?

I liked the signing at the time and still do at present. It'll be interesting to see how the new bottom six are utilized. I'm not sold on Lafferty at the dot if he's doing heavy lifting, and that comes with the caveat that we've seen Ruff scheme for losing draws before so maybe it's no big deal if he goes below 43%. I am excited about seeing wheels and engagement from the bottom. Should be entertaining until at least mid-December.

Off-topic: I'm personally hoping to see Byram put it all together here this season.