OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Post Draft - Still dont need no QB

Nowhere did I say in my post that "all players must be held to the same standards". I said they need to be held accountable to get desired results/outcomes. That sometimes warrants flexibility and managers should do that. I can't remember the name of the book but that's what Phil Jackson did with Rodman. He gave him a leash, but he knew when to tug back when Dennis started to get out of control. Jimmy Johnson did the same to Irvin and Haley (who if you read the stuff he did makes AB and GP look like a choir boy).
That's funny. I was writing a post yesterday that was going to mention Jackson and Rodman but got busy.

I think there actually needs to be a distinction made between AB and Pickens.

While AB had run-ins with teammates, tantrums on the sidelines, penalized for celebrations, etc., I think a lot of that stuff was very Rodman-esque. Also like Rodman, though, AB came to f***ing play. I could be misremembering, but I don't remember any instances where AB's effort level was questioned...until the end of course where he walked out of practice, showed up late to the game, they made him inactive, and he was off the team shortly after. I think you could make a case that Tomlin handled AB similar to how Jackson handled Rodman.

Where Pickens (and DJ) really crossed a line IMO is the lack of effort, it wasn't on one occasion, and Tomlin didn't do nearly enough about it. In fact, he even tried to cover for him after the Cowboys game. That should have been nipped in the bud a long time ago and let him and the rest of the team know that shit would not be tolerated. Maybe he tried to do something behind closed doors, but clearly it didn't work because it kept happening.
 
Sure dude... they have crazy weapons:

QB?
WR... they just overpaid by a country mile... DK wasn't even Top 15 and played with Jaxon Smith. He won't have that in Pittsburgh or a QB that slings for 500+ attempts for 4,300 yards
RB? Who?
Offensive Line - (spits f***ing drink out of mouth)
TE?

Do I need to list them all to you? Steelers were lower 3rd in TOTAL offense last year and you think they got more explosive?
QB is what it is. Not beating that horse again. They pulled Howard this draft, and he is legit prospect. They are going to continue drafting QBs.

DK Is as good as Pickens and we benefit because Metcalf won't half ass like Pickens did

Our RBs are better. Johnson is going to be able to take over for Najee and he's a better prospect than Najee was. Warren is a good runner, and Gainwell is a change of pace back.

TE we have Freiermuth and Washington. Not sure what else you need there.

Sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Khan has been a f***ing clown as GM.

Is this the worst roster Tomlin has had in his career?

I know, I know, the season doesn’t start for several months, but homers spewed the same garbage last year, trying to defend Mr. Clean Khan.

Who would have thought having an injured dinosaur Wilson and Fields were substantially better than what we have now.

Pitiful

Are people still trying to convince themselves that 30 year old Rudolph will suddenly be an effective QB?

Last season was a worse roster than this year aside from QB. Everything else is markedly better
 
I think we agree a lot on what good management looks like.

I don't have a problem with a guy who's managing, what, 80-90 odd people doing a lot of delegation. 53 man squad, practice squad, coaches... that's a lot of people. He should be delegating a bunch. I don't see a problem with him delegating a lot of the bad cop stuff either.

I also don't see - with caveats - a lot of problems with him letting the players sort things out among themselves. Maybe that's a cultural thing, you'll hear about rugby coaches in the UK letting the players make the rules on what's late and what's the punishment and internal stuff like that, but to me it makes a lot of sense a lot of the time. I believe that group chosen and enforced standards are often what sticks best.

However, we reach the caveat here and that is it needs the right players. My belief, based on what I've heard, is that when Tomlin arrived here, he had the right players (and coaches too) to let the veterans handle a bunch of stuff themselves so he did. That standard of internal professional excellence has never wavered on the defensive side of the ball but on the offence? It wobbled bad. They're practically two different teams in terms of drama. I'm guessing it wobbled bad during the Killer B years, and then it wobbled even more when pretty much every good player on the offence left in about two years and a bunch of kids had to rebuild things from scratch.

I think Tomlin learned a few things from that which is why we seem to be hearing such an emphasis on character with the recent draft picks. I don't think he's mailing anything in, I think he's have to adapt to a new situation. That keeping Antonio Brown in line with Big Ben to give him the desired numbers is different to keeping Johnson/Claypool/Pickens in line without him and he needs to be more ruthless about shipping guys out. We'll see if he can adapt to this or not but I think you can see he's learning and trying to.

Yup we agree more than we disagree on this topic.

To your point about delegation- yes a top level CEO can't manage all these people. You've got 53 players, plus who knows how many support staff. That's too much for 1 person. But when you delegate, you better hand it off to someone capable. But look at who Tomlin brings in as coaches. Outside of Art Smith, there has been no one with any pedigree. They are all castoffs or new guys trying to cut their teeth. It's ok to have those types sprinkled into your staff, but they can't all be green. This is the core problem with development on this team- the positional coaches suck at their jobs. The guys that get the most 1:1 time with players are bad coaches.

Here are general guidelines for managers:

- He should be delegating the support/medical staff to someone else since that's not his area of expertise. Tomlin isn't a doctor. I assume he does this.
- Same goes for the support people like waterboys, equipment managers, etc. I assume he does this too.
- His top people and difference makers should be getting 20 percent of his attention. Letting them know they are valued, etc.
- 40% of his time should be spend with the middle of the road players. To try and get them to that top echelon.

Stopping there it seems much of that isn't happening. Harris came in and was wanting to learn everything, but MT just brushed him aside and directed him to his position coach. That's terrible optics. In my job if I wanted to learn about sales I"m going to my Prez who is a dyed in the wool sales type. Dude knows everything in our industry. He'd spend an hour with me and THEN direct me to the Director of Sales if I wanted more details.

If the Prez brushed me off like Harris got, I'd be kinda pissed that I'm a 1st round pick and the coach can't spend time with me honing details of my game? I don't think McVay or Kevin O Connell does that.

There are too many high potential guys that get drafted and then plateau or crater after a successful rookie year. Benton took a step back, JPJ, B Jones, I can go on. This isn't a coincidence and I'm tired of people telling me that the sky isn't blue after 19 years.
 
That's funny. I was writing a post yesterday that was going to mention Jackson and Rodman but got busy.

I think there actually needs to be a distinction made between AB and Pickens.

While AB had run-ins with teammates, tantrums on the sidelines, penalized for celebrations, etc., I think a lot of that stuff was very Rodman-esque. Also like Rodman, though, AB came to f***ing play. I could be misremembering, but I don't remember any instances where AB's effort level was questioned...until the end of course where he walked out of practice, showed up late to the game, they made him inactive, and he was off the team shortly after. I think you could make a case that Tomlin handled AB similar to how Jackson handled Rodman.

Where Pickens (and DJ) really crossed a line IMO is the lack of effort, it wasn't on one occasion, and Tomlin didn't do nearly enough about it. In fact, he even tried to cover for him after the Cowboys game. That should have been nipped in the bud a long time ago and let him and the rest of the team know that shit would not be tolerated. Maybe he tried to do something behind closed doors, but clearly it didn't work because it kept happening.

What we saw with AB was a lagging indicator of what was brewing (eventually quitting on this team). Word is that Tomlin let AB do his thing bc as you said he worked his ass off and performance wise was the best at his craft. But there was stuff brewing underneath according to former teammates and the media. People acted all surprised when AB jumped the shark but many people on the inside knew differently.

The optimist would say: well at least we got productive years. Kudos to Tomlin for managing it as long as he did.
The pessimist (like me) would say: maybe with a different leadership style, he might not have blown up and we could have squeezed more juice from AB

Hard to tell without a timemachine. But again this isn't just about AB. Nor is it just about GP. It's a culmination of these situations that keep happening. Can you name another team that has this many issues with WR's going crazy? It's unprecedented, but happy to be educated if someone brings forth new evidence.
 
Last season was a worse roster than this year aside from QB. Everything else is markedly better
They got worse at the most important position. I don’t think WRs are remarkably better. Tight ends are the same. RB is to be determined.
 
Last season was a worse roster than this year aside from QB. Everything else is markedly better
The wr is exactly the same. Ben and Woods are better run blockers than Jefferson. Dk will check out if he does not get targets early on. This is the worst Qb he has played with outside of Locke and will see double coverage often
The RB will be a committee for the first time since before Connor. The room doesn’t have a guy with 16 nfl carries in a nfl game.
 
Are you saying Tomlin has zero power in this organization? If not, then what power does he have?
Of course he has power, he has the regular power that any coach has: everything from how the team operates day to day, game planning, depth chart etc. as well as a voice at the table when it comes to player acquisition. A voice IMO that carries weight but is NOT the defacto GM.

I think if he said for example “cant work with player X” Kahn would take appropriate steps to remove that player but he certainly isnt the person pulling the trigger or have unilateral power to make that decision
 
They got worse at the most important position. I don’t think WRs are remarkably better. Tight ends are the same. RB is to be determined.
TEs weren't a problem. RB is going to be better. I'll be shocked if it isn't. OL is better. DL is better. LB corps is better. CB is a question mark, but could be fine. If Minkah can return to form and Elliot stays the same as last year, or safety situation is fine. We need a WR and and QB.

I would have signed Fields...but they didn't want to. Whatever. Can't change it. I'm glad they drafted Howard and Rudolph was the best option for them outside of Fields.
 
Yup we agree more than we disagree on this topic.

To your point about delegation- yes a top level CEO can't manage all these people. You've got 53 players, plus who knows how many support staff. That's too much for 1 person. But when you delegate, you better hand it off to someone capable. But look at who Tomlin brings in as coaches. Outside of Art Smith, there has been no one with any pedigree. They are all castoffs or new guys trying to cut their teeth. It's ok to have those types sprinkled into your staff, but they can't all be green. This is the core problem with development on this team- the positional coaches suck at their jobs. The guys that get the most 1:1 time with players are bad coaches.

Tomlin's choice and development of coaches is definitely something that I feel deserves a lot of questioning. The further we get from the staff he inherited from Cowher, the more it feels like a mix of duds and good enough, with no studs. The one dude who was meant to be an upcoming guy in Grady Brown just got thrown overboard.

And of course, yeah, since they're the front line guys implementing Tomlin's plan, if they're no good the plan is no good.

Here are general guidelines for managers:

- He should be delegating the support/medical staff to someone else since that's not his area of expertise. Tomlin isn't a doctor. I assume he does this.
- Same goes for the support people like waterboys, equipment managers, etc. I assume he does this too.
- His top people and difference makers should be getting 20 percent of his attention. Letting them know they are valued, etc.
- 40% of his time should be spend with the middle of the road players. To try and get them to that top echelon.

Stopping there it seems much of that isn't happening. Harris came in and was wanting to learn everything, but MT just brushed him aside and directed him to his position coach. That's terrible optics. In my job if I wanted to learn about sales I"m going to my Prez who is a dyed in the wool sales type. Dude knows everything in our industry. He'd spend an hour with me and THEN direct me to the Director of Sales if I wanted more details.

If the Prez brushed me off like Harris got, I'd be kinda pissed that I'm a 1st round pick and the coach can't spend time with me honing details of my game? I don't think McVay or Kevin O Connell does that.

There are too many high potential guys that get drafted and then plateau or crater after a successful rookie year. Benton took a step back, JPJ, B Jones, I can go on. This isn't a coincidence and I'm tired of people telling me that the sky isn't blue after 19 years.

Here I feel unable to comment in full as I don't know NFL norms. I went looking for NFL Head Coach Work Week and found this from John Harbaugh


As far as I can tell, there's just not really time for a bunch of one on one work with dudes. That their role as team figurehead, comms link with the front office/owner, and strategist for the upcoming games takes up a ton of their time. This link breaks it down as a chart which is helpful. I don't know how typical Harbaugh is but I'm guessing he's not rare.

So if Tomlin doesn't have time to do 1 on 1 with Harris I'm not sure that'd be atypical or a problem.

But this takes us right back to the selecting and developing coaches thing. The coaches are doing the majority of the work, they have to be the right guys and too many of Tomlin's aren't.
 
QB is what it is. Not beating that horse again. They pulled Howard this draft, and he is legit prospect. They are going to continue drafting QBs.

DK Is as good as Pickens and we benefit because Metcalf won't half ass like Pickens did

Our RBs are better. Johnson is going to be able to take over for Najee and he's a better prospect than Najee was. Warren is a good runner, and Gainwell is a change of pace back.

TE we have Freiermuth and Washington. Not sure what else you need there.

Sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.
Lower 3rd ranked offense and I have no idea what I'm talking about... we'll circle around to this about 1/2 way through season.... you obviously have a different idea of what a "weapon" is....

Best of luck to you.
 
Lower 3rd ranked offense and I have no idea what I'm talking about... we'll circle around to this about 1/2 way through season.... you obviously have a different idea of what a "weapon" is....

Best of luck to you.

You hope it's better...with a different running back, and a better offensive line. Ya know...things change year to year. The strides of the rookies on the offensive line alone is going to be huge.
 
You hope it's better...with a different running back, and a better offensive line. Ya know...things change year to year. The strides of the rookies on the offensive line alone is going to be huge.
There’s a lot riding on the rb from Iowa
 
The team needs to get better at blocking. That's the long and the short of it.

Some of that's on the players, some of that's on the plays. It feels like some of Smith's blocking plays needed 8 guys to get it right and that's tough. But there's a lot of inexperienced guys, a lot of guys who were never it blocking in the skill positions, and that needs to get better. They need to find something they can collectively do because until they do, the offensive rebuild is never going anywhere. Respect to the team for drafting to make it happen, but the other part of the process now needs to go right.
 
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They need to find something they can collectively do because until they do, the offensive rebuild is never going anywhere.
This is exactly it. They have not had an identity on offense (other than try not to kill us) in a long time. Figure out something they can do well, and then do it. Work from there.
 
What we saw with AB was a lagging indicator of what was brewing (eventually quitting on this team). Word is that Tomlin let AB do his thing bc as you said he worked his ass off and performance wise was the best at his craft. But there was stuff brewing underneath according to former teammates and the media. People acted all surprised when AB jumped the shark but many people on the inside knew differently.

The optimist would say: well at least we got productive years. Kudos to Tomlin for managing it as long as he did.
The pessimist (like me) would say: maybe with a different leadership style, he might not have blown up and we could have squeezed more juice from AB

Hard to tell without a timemachine. But again this isn't just about AB. Nor is it just about GP. It's a culmination of these situations that keep happening. Can you name another team that has this many issues with WR's going crazy? It's unprecedented, but happy to be educated if someone brings forth new evidence.
Stuff brewing like skipping practice to fly to another city and appear on WCW in middle on the Finals?

I dunno, man. I think Jackson let Rodman get away with murder. The difference is that the Bulls won and it was comparatively a shorter time together so it never turned sour. So Jackson is the Zen master while Tomlin is a buffoon who ruined AB's career.

Like I said, I think he was way too lax on DJ and Pickens quitting on plays. He (presumably) played a role in getting both of them off the team, but I think a louder message could be sent even if it ends up tanking their value in a future trade.
 
There’s a lot riding on the rb from Iowa
Well that's the point. He's a 3rd round pick and was seen by many as a late 1st-mid 2nd pick. He should be able to come in and play immediately and be successful. Najee did. Warren did. He's better than both of them at a younger age. Johnson is 21 and in the NFL. Najee was 21 and had 2 more years at Alabama.
 
AB absolutely got leash because of his work ethic. I think AB's impact was net zero until the end. He was immature and caused some drama, but he set the working standard for the team and the team was successful while he was here.
 
I love football but the NFL trying to make the schedule release into this big thing is something I will never understand.
Because people watch it. It'll get better ratings tonight than any baseball or hockey broadcast or most basketball game that will be on this month.

What exhausts me is the endless tweets from every sportswriter complaining about too many night games or working on holidays and how hard their jobs are. No one cares, guys.
 
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The team needs to get better at blocking. That's the long and the short of it.

Some of that's on the players, some of that's on the plays. It feels like some of Smith's blocking plays needed 8 guys to get it right and that's tough. But there's a lot of inexperienced guys, a lot of guys who were never it blocking in the skill positions, and that needs to get better. They need to find something they can collectively do because until they do, the offensive rebuild is never going anywhere. Respect to the team for drafting to make it happen, but the other part of the process now needs to go right.
I'm obviously not at practice or (even more obviously) in coaches meetings, but the sense I get when watching the team is that the units haven't been coached in a cohesive manner. As in, the scheme isn't tied together across position groups, where, for example, backs don't understand the blocking scheme or the O-line doesn't know why they're employing a particular tactic on a particular play.

Smith might be working to change that (slowly), or I could just be flat wrong. But for so long our plan was to "beat the guy across from you because you're better than him" - doesn't cut it in today's NFL. With the reduced practice times, meetings and film work are paramount.
 
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Well that's the point. He's a 3rd round pick and was seen by many as a late 1st-mid 2nd pick. He should be able to come in and play immediately and be successful. Najee did. Warren did. He's better than both of them at a younger age. Johnson is 21 and in the NFL. Najee was 21 and had 2 more years at Alabama.
The number 1 quality for a running back is pass blocking he has a lot of work to do on that. He isn’t a great pass catcher. I think he has a ton of potential
 
The number 1 quality for a running back is pass blocking he has a lot of work to do on that. He isn’t a great pass catcher. I think he has a ton of potential
And the way to work on it is to do it. Luckily he has probably the best pass blocking RB in the league to help teach him. His pass catching is fine. He just didn't see the ball a lot as a receiver. He was targeted 25 times and caught 23. In his college career he was targeted 35(!) times and caught 29 of them.

Johnson is getting Najee's carries. Dude is going to get starter workload, I guarantee it. Only way he doesn't is if he starts fumbling the ball and Warren stops.
 

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