OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Post Draft - Still dont need no QB

[WheresRamziAbid]

Probably a poor choice of phrase, but he's been the LONE PERSON across 2 GM's (outside of Art). Yet there is a repeated pattern of lack of development and drafting questionable character WRs who they have to later trade. At minimum Tomlin goes to bat with every pick and says "I can work with this dude".

So he's either overestimating his abilities to manage personalities or he's overestimating his ability to pick the right horse. Either way this falls on Tomlin.

I think there is some fairness in that and he deserves some level of blame for drafting these guys. But i disagree with your conclusion i think it falls on one guy in particular.

 

[Peat]

I’m not sure what more Pickens needed to do to make Steelers fans realize he’s not a dude you give 30 million dollars per year to. Part of the reason he fell in the draft was because of maturity and attitude problems and then he comes into the league and lives up to that reputation.

I don’t think he goes the way of Claypool/Johnson where he’ll be out of the league shortly after this trade. But I don’t know if any team is going to put up with him long term if he doesn’t grow up.

At this point he could have an Ernie Holmes style meltdown on the Turnpike and his fans still wouldn't get it. They've hit that mentality where they're so desperate for him to succeed and so sick of all the criticism that everything becomes an example of how everyone else has let him down. We've seen it with other players but it's hit mega-levels with Pickens.

Even as someone who enjoys a bit of drama I'm really looking forward to it dying down.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

At this point he could have an Ernie Holmes style meltdown on the Turnpike and his fans still wouldn't get it. They've hit that mentality where they're so desperate for him to succeed and so sick of all the criticism that everything becomes an example of how everyone else has let him down. We've seen it with other players but it's hit mega-levels with Pickens.

Even as someone who enjoys a bit of drama I'm really looking forward to it dying down.

My issue was with trading for DK because he had some of the issues that GP had in Seattle. DK is now going to be playing with the worst Qb he has ever played with and in a system where he doesn’t have Jsn or Lockett drawing coverage. He will snap just he did in Seattle

 

[Empoleon8771]

My issue was with trading for DK because he had some of the issues that GP had in Seattle. DK is now going to be playing with the worst Qb he has ever played with and in a system where he doesn’t have Jsn or Lockett drawing coverage. He will snap just he did in Seattle

Pickens had far bigger issues than DK has had.

 

[Booker T]

At this point he could have an Ernie Holmes style meltdown on the Turnpike and his fans still wouldn't get it. They've hit that mentality where they're so desperate for him to succeed and so sick of all the criticism that everything becomes an example of how everyone else has let him down. We've seen it with other players but it's hit mega-levels with Pickens.

Even as someone who enjoys a bit of drama I'm really looking forward to it dying down.

Could I offer you one slightly-used Aaron Rodgers in this tryin' time?

 

[Peat]

My issue was with trading for DK because he had some of the issues that GP had in Seattle. DK is now going to be playing with the worst Qb he has ever played with and in a system where he doesn’t have Jsn or Lockett drawing coverage. He will snap just he did in Seattle

Maybe he will. I'd be lying if I said Metcalf was the solution I'd have picked. There is a big difference tho in that I've never heard of Metcalf being an issue off the field.

In any case, what's done is done and now we hope for the best,

Could I offer you one slightly-used Aaron Rodgers in this tryin' time?

Slightly

For now, we need to keep the Rodgers drama in reserve for when we run out of Pickens drama.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I think there is some fairness in that and he deserves some level of blame for drafting these guys. But i disagree with your conclusion i think it falls on one guy in particular.

Again, there is 1 guy remaining. Who else deserves blame when it's across multiple GM's, multiple Asst, and assistant coaches? The training staff? The water boy? Concession workers?

 

[pistolpete11]

Probably a poor choice of phrase, but he's been the LONE PERSON across 2 GM's (outside of Art). Yet there is a repeated pattern of lack of development and drafting questionable character WRs who they have to later trade. At minimum Tomlin goes to bat with every pick and says "I can work with this dude".

So he's either overestimating his abilities to manage personalities or he's overestimating his ability to pick the right horse. Either way this falls on Tomlin.

Is it, though? I don't disagree that Tomlin deserves criticism for being involved in drafting, managing, and developing these guys, but all the WR we're talking about were drafted under Colbert.

Khan has traded 3 of them away.

I will admit that it's easier to draft high character linemen than WR, so we'll see if/when Khan takes more in the draft (particularly high in the draft), but so far...there's been a pattern of drafting high character guys under Khan.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

At this point he could have an Ernie Holmes style meltdown on the Turnpike and his fans still wouldn't get it. They've hit that mentality where they're so desperate for him to succeed and so sick of all the criticism that everything becomes an example of how everyone else has let him down. We've seen it with other players but it's hit mega-levels with Pickens.

Even as someone who enjoys a bit of drama I'm really looking forward to it dying down.

At the end of the day, Pickens is responsible for his own actions. I hope my criticisms of MT don't override that.

But the mark of a good coach/manager/parent (doesn't matter) is to create an environment where people are held accountable for their actions. Pickens isn't just 1 rogue bad apple. He's the 4th WR over the past decade to have major behavioral problems (or however you want to characterize that). Tomlin thinks he can work with these dudes and signs off on them. But there are some dudes you just can't get through...Tomlin's ego won't ever let him believe such a thing.

It's apparent that MT hasn't created such an environment. Lots of criticisms from former players about what goes on in that facility and it's not a pretty picture that the media will have you believe. Ergo that Tomlin is some whiz-bang mentor for these young men and has complete control of his lockerroom.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Pickens had far bigger issues than DK has had.

DK did get put on blast by an only fans model when he wanted a 4some by his teammates

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Could I offer you one slightly-used Aaron Rodgers in this tryin' time?

I really don’t believe Rodgers is signing. I fully expect him to wait until September for an injury to a contender. He doesn’t Want to camp or pre season anyway
We have a worst rb and wr room than he had as a jet

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Again, there is 1 guy remaining. Who else deserves blame when it's across multiple GM's, multiple Asst, and assistant coaches? The training staff? The water boy? Concession workers?

What i find interesting is they still don’t have have any offensive leadership if you lose Minka TJ and Cam then you can’t be in the locker room anymore

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Again, there is 1 guy remaining. Who else deserves blame when it's across multiple GM's, multiple Asst, and assistant coaches? The training staff? The water boy? Concession workers?

Both GMs, everyone in the personnel depts across the entire tenure, Tomlin, even to some degree the owner.

 

[Peat]

At the end of the day, Pickens is responsible for his own actions. I hope my criticisms of MT don't override that.

But the mark of a good coach/manager/parent (doesn't matter) is to create an environment where people are held accountable for their actions. Pickens isn't just 1 rogue bad apple. He's the 4th WR over the past decade to have major behavioral problems (or however you want to characterize that). Tomlin thinks he can work with these dudes and signs off on them. But there are some dudes you just can't get through...Tomlin's ego won't ever let him believe such a thing.

It's apparent that MT hasn't created such an environment. Lots of criticisms from former players about what goes on in that facility and it's not a pretty picture that the media will have you believe. Ergo that Tomlin is some whiz-bang mentor for these young men and has complete control of his lockerroom.

I don't believe it's this simple for coaches and managers. I'm going to guess that in a lot of high performance environments, you'll see coaches and managers who have to adopt a sliding scale when it comes to highly talented people who act the maggot because it gets better performance overall and that's what they're judged on.

I also think given that Tomlin just got rid of Pickens, and that the last few drafts have been packed full of high character guys, he absolutely accepts there's some people you can't get through to and also that the team isn't in the position to absorb them and keep working that it once was. And see no reason to doubt the many people around the NFL who believe that Tomlin gets more from these players than anyone else. It isn't his job to reform them. It's to keep them in check while he squeezes out production until it's no longer worth it, at which point he goes bye bye. Which so far appears to be what happens, with players going full loco and useless when away from Tomlin. Honestly, if Pickens follows the arcs of Claypool and Johnson, he's probably going to blow up the Cowboys' stadium.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Both GMs, everyone in the personnel depts across the entire tenure, Tomlin, even to some degree the owner.

There has been 1 constant (well 2 if you include Art).
So no, I'm not inclined to conclude it's anyone but them

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I don't believe it's this simple for coaches and managers. I'm going to guess that in a lot of high performance environments, you'll see coaches and managers who have to adopt a sliding scale when it comes to highly talented people who act the maggot because it gets better performance overall and that's what they're judged on.

I also think given that Tomlin just got rid of Pickens, and that the last few drafts have been packed full of high character guys, he absolutely accepts there's some people you can't get through to and also that the team isn't in the position to absorb them and keep working that it once was. And see no reason to doubt the many people around the NFL who believe that Tomlin gets more from these players than anyone else. It isn't his job to reform them. It's to keep them in check while he squeezes out production until it's no longer worth it, at which point he goes bye bye. Which so far appears to be what happens, with players going full loco and useless when away from Tomlin. Honestly, if Pickens follows the arcs of Claypool and Johnson, he's probably going to blow up the Cowboys' stadium.

There's evidence based research to refute the bolded. Doesn't matter the context: Parenting/coaching/business, regardless of the stakes being high or low, it's an immutable rule that environment matters a TON.

Show me a bad company and I'll show you bad managers.
Show me a misbehaved child and I'll show you uninvolved parents.

There are so many turnaround stories in sports that I 'm not sure where to begin. Ray Shero made significant changes when he first arrived like ensuring there was a computer in every office and email was prevalent.

The Washington Commanders had a toxic owner. Yes they selected the right QB but they made other significant environmental changes.

I realize I'm probably a bit biased because I've been doing Organizational Development/Psychology/HR for 25 years but this shit matters more than people realize.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

There has been 1 constant (well 2 if you include Art).
So no, I'm not inclined to conclude it's anyone but them

And thats the flashing neon sign that you have a clear bias. Putting responsibility for selecting players SOLEY on a guy who doesn't even have that job responsibility is interesting at best.

 

[Peat]

There's evidence based research to refute the bolded. Doesn't matter the context: Parenting/coaching/business, regardless of the stakes being high or low, it's an immutable rule that environment matters a TON.

Show me a bad company and I'll show you bad managers.
Show me a misbehaved child and I'll show you uninvolved parents.

There are so many turnaround stories in sports that I 'm not sure where to begin. Ray Shero made significant changes when he first arrived like ensuring there was a computer in every office and email was prevalent.

The Washington Commanders had a toxic owner. Yes they selected the right QB but they made other significant environmental changes.

I realize I'm probably a bit biased because I've been doing Organizational Development/Psychology/HR for 25 years but this shit matters more than people realize.

I agree that environment matters a ton.

I also think everything I've read about successful sports teams suggests those environments contain some flexibility. That, beyond the usual things that go on that are permitted there that aren't permitted in ordinary life, you'll see a little bit of licence given to the most important people. I think to a certain extent it's just accepted. Everybody wants to win, everybody's a bit unhinged, they can live with a little.

Of course, Pickens wasn't a little, he was a lottle and didn't really hold up the helps the team win part. But then Pickens isn't here any more.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

And thats the flashing neon sign that you have a clear bias. Putting responsibility for selecting players SOLEY on a guy who doesn't even have that job responsibility is interesting at best.

We have no idea the exact delination of duties, but from a historical context (and we have 19 years of evidence), it's easy to summize how much influence Tomlin has.

I mean there was a tweet that just said that Tomlin wanted GP gone and he subsequently was. Khan may officially "execute" the trade but it came from Tomlin.

The evidence of the draft picks and media also state that Tomlin has significant influence on draft choices. Perhaps moreso than most coaches in the league.

You can't have it both ways: all of the power but hardly any responsibility. And I'm rightfully holding that person's feet to the fire (on the internet haha)

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I agree that environment matters a ton.

I also think everything I've read about successful sports teams suggests those environments contain some flexibility. That, beyond the usual things that go on that are permitted there that aren't permitted in ordinary life, you'll see a little bit of licence given to the most important people. I think to a certain extent it's just accepted. Everybody wants to win, everybody's a bit unhinged, they can live with a little.

Of course, Pickens wasn't a little, he was a lottle and didn't really hold up the helps the team win part. But then Pickens isn't here any more.

I think we may be misreading each other a bit here. All of what you typed is true.
Nowhere did I say in my post that "all players must be held to the same standards". I said they need to be held accountable to get desired results/outcomes. That sometimes warrants flexibility and managers should do that. I can't remember the name of the book but that's what Phil Jackson did with Rodman. He gave him a leash, but he knew when to tug back when Dennis started to get out of control. Jimmy Johnson did the same to Irvin and Haley (who if you read the stuff he did makes AB and GP look like a choir boy).

We don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but from what we've heard in the media is that Tomlin wants his players and positional coaches to merit discipline. That should be red flag #1 bc that is the manager's job. I manage 10 people and that would be akin to me letting coworkers write others up for being late or screwing something up. That confuses people and sends a weird message.

I have 2 daughters who could not be more different in terms of learning and communication styles. I would never approach them the same way in terms of discipline or conveying an important message the same way to them.

Being a manager/leader is f***ing hard if you're doing it the right way. It requires constant reading of the room and monitoring vibes. I get the sense that Tomlin can't be bothered with that stuff anymore. He did it early on in his coaching career, but from my standpoint he's mailing it in.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

We have no idea the exact delination of duties, but from a historical context (and we have 19 years of evidence), it's easy to summize how much influence Tomlin has.

I mean there was a tweet that just said that Tomlin wanted GP gone and he subsequently was. Khan may officially "execute" the trade but it came from Tomlin.

The evidence of the draft picks and media also state that Tomlin has significant influence on draft choices. Perhaps moreso than most coaches in the league.

You can't have it both ways: all of the power but hardly any responsibility. And I'm rightfully holding that person's feet to the fire (on the internet haha)

Influence and input are not the same thing as power in this situation. Your acting like andy Weidl and Omar Khan are rubber stamps for Mike Tomlin and i think thats absurd.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Influence and input are not the same thing as power in this situation. Your acting like andy Weidl and Omar Khan are rubber stamps for Mike Tomlin and i think thats absurd.

Yes we have seen Tomlin with the hostage and volunteer situation. If Tomlin wanted GP gone no matter what he would have been moved at the draft. Instead they waited until they got a 3rd back. If the cowboys didn’t offer a 3rd GP would still be here

 

[Peat]

I think we may be misreading each other a bit here. All of what you typed is true.
Nowhere did I say in my post that "all players must be held to the same standards". I said they need to be held accountable to get desired results/outcomes. That sometimes warrants flexibility and managers should do that. I can't remember the name of the book but that's what Phil Jackson did with Rodman. He gave him a leash, but he knew when to tug back when Dennis started to get out of control. Jimmy Johnson did the same to Irvin and Haley (who if you read the stuff he did makes AB and GP look like a choir boy).

We don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but from what we've heard in the media is that Tomlin wants his players and positional coaches to merit discipline. That should be red flag #1 bc that is the manager's job. I manage 10 people and that would be akin to me letting coworkers write others up for being late or screwing something up. That confuses people and sends a weird message.

I have 2 daughters who could not be more different in terms of learning and communication styles. I would never approach them the same way in terms of discipline or conveying an important message the same way to them.

Being a manager/leader is f***ing hard if you're doing it the right way. It requires constant reading of the room and monitoring vibes. I get the sense that Tomlin can't be bothered with that stuff anymore. He did it early on in his coaching career, but from my standpoint he's mailing it in.

I think we agree a lot on what good management looks like.

I don't have a problem with a guy who's managing, what, 80-90 odd people doing a lot of delegation. 53 man squad, practice squad, coaches... that's a lot of people. He should be delegating a bunch. I don't see a problem with him delegating a lot of the bad cop stuff either.

I also don't see - with caveats - a lot of problems with him letting the players sort things out among themselves. Maybe that's a cultural thing, you'll hear about rugby coaches in the UK letting the players make the rules on what's late and what's the punishment and internal stuff like that, but to me it makes a lot of sense a lot of the time. I believe that group chosen and enforced standards are often what sticks best.

However, we reach the caveat here and that is it needs the right players. My belief, based on what I've heard, is that when Tomlin arrived here, he had the right players (and coaches too) to let the veterans handle a bunch of stuff themselves so he did. That standard of internal professional excellence has never wavered on the defensive side of the ball but on the offence? It wobbled bad. They're practically two different teams in terms of drama. I'm guessing it wobbled bad during the Killer B years, and then it wobbled even more when pretty much every good player on the offence left in about two years and a bunch of kids had to rebuild things from scratch.

I think Tomlin learned a few things from that which is why we seem to be hearing such an emphasis on character with the recent draft picks. I don't think he's mailing anything in, I think he's have to adapt to a new situation. That keeping Antonio Brown in line with Big Ben to give him the desired numbers is different to keeping Johnson/Claypool/Pickens in line without him and he needs to be more ruthless about shipping guys out. We'll see if he can adapt to this or not but I think you can see he's learning and trying to.