OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Off Season We dont need a QB Edition



That’s absolutely an improvement. He also posted his best EPA/dropback, Success Rate, and ANY/A. Basically any QB stat you look at, he improved from where he was in Chicago. Again, I’m not saying they turned him into a great QB but there’s no debating that he improved this year.

QB Efficiency
Fields 3 years in Chicago:
1743185654456.png

2024:
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It was a noticeable improvement for Fields at least in terms of efficiency, granted he only had ~250 snaps in 2024 (which isn't a big enough sample size). I don't think Tomlin and Co. are some QB guru's, probably more to do with Fields leaving a dumpster fire in Chicago and coming to a more stable, mediocre situation. I've said this before, but rookie QB's go to far worse situations every single year.
 
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I'm not building the team though. This isn't me or @CheckingLineCenter saying this is what they should do.

This is different versions of 'given the team's recent moves and who they've got... if they make a crazy gamble, oh well, who cares'. I won't put words in CLC's mouth but for me, after reading what he said, I realised that yeah, it's tough to get that worked up about whether they're smart or stupid with that sort of blockage.
Correct interpretation. Feel free to put words in my mouth going forward :laugh:
 
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So I should care that they overpaid for Fitz and Queen in years they had no shot at winning anything, but I shouldn't care about decisions that will affect the franchise for the next 5-10 years? Got it.

Not being funny, but you're acting like you want to make this Jiggy's and Bigdaddy's weekly bout over Tomlin and that sounds deeply unsatisfying. If my words have bugged you that much, say so and we can just not talk much to each other for a bit. If I haven't, maybe chill a little.

Because, yeah, it's not consistent. One is a head over heart if we're grading the dude's performance, this is what I think of it. The other is a heart over head, emotive response going why care if this team potentially makes a weird decision when there's a weird decision maker around, it all the ends the same (that also acknowledges that in terms of the head, it'd clearly be a very weird decision). They're not using the same scale at all and I think that was clear enough that I see no need for making this a gotcha moment. Most of us are a bit inconsistent about the team these days after all.

You not there, you staying consistent with everything, that's cool. Just don't expect everyone else to.
 
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Not being funny, but you're acting like you want to make this Jiggy's and Bigdaddy's weekly bout over Tomlin and that sounds deeply unsatisfying. If my words have bugged you that much, say so and we can just not talk much to each other for a bit. If I haven't, maybe chill a little.

Because, yeah, it's not consistent. One is a head over heart if we're grading the dude's performance, this is what I think of it. The other is a heart over head, emotive response going why care if this team potentially makes a weird decision when there's a weird decision maker around, it all the ends the same (that also acknowledges that in terms of the head, it'd clearly be a very weird decision). They're not using the same scale at all and I think that was clear enough that I see no need for making this a gotcha moment. Most of us are a bit inconsistent about the team these days after all.

You not there, you staying consistent with everything, that's cool. Just don't expect everyone else to.
What's unsatisfying is to have a 4 day long discussion about the roster to then get hit with a "well nothing matters as long as Tomlin is here." OK, great.

I'm sure we all have some inconsistencies, but yes, I think that people engaging in rationale debate should at least attempt to remain consistent, I do.
 
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Not trying to be a dick or pedantic on this topic, but even if I concede your point JF improved, what would that get them in terms of another QB? Doesn't matter who they draft, they're gonna put the handcuffs on him. They don't allow their QB's any runway to audible, throw MOF, or to take risks.

Your point a few months ago about MOF is true: if they trust the QB (namely Ben), they get to throw there.
But it's a chicken or the egg thing: how do you develop trust without accepting risk?

It's like having your child ace their road test and written portion at 16, but never allowing them to drive alone because they might get in a wreck.

All it means to me is that they are capable of at least somewhat being a factor in the development of a QB. Or like Wicked pointed out, maybe have a somewhat stable environment for a QB. Can they do more and develop a franchise QB? I don’t know.

I’m not all that worried about handcuffs. The thing with audibles is not nearly as big of a deal as people have made it imo and you already know where I stand with the middle of the field. Having full control to change plays whenever they want isn’t very common for a lot of QBs let alone a rookie or young QB that’s new to the system.
 
The thing about Fields and development for me is that he didn't get better and better with the Steelers, it's that he got better and then regressed. And the getting better was mostly linked to playing conservatively, and the regression linked to him trying to be a gunslinger again. He had that one glorious half vs the Colts where it honest to god looked like he could maybe one day be a franchise QB and then vs the Cowboys and Raiders he came back down to earth.

It's a six game sample and who knows what happens if Tomlin doesn't pull the plug, but it really raises the question to me of whether they genuinely developed him as a player - or whether they got better performance out of him because the Steelers defence was a better safety net and allowed him to play a lot less recklessly, which is only of so-so value with developing a young QB. It lets you keep them on the field, but at some point you have to ramp things up and have them do more. So far, that part seems to defeat Tomlin.

What's unsatisfying is to have a 4 day long discussion about the roster to then get hit with a "well nothing matters as long as Tomlin is here." OK, great.

I'm sure we all have some inconsistencies, but yes, I think that people engaging in rationale debate should at least attempt to remain consistent, I do.

Okay, I get it. To me they were different conversations and debates, so I didn't see the need to use the same measuring stick.

Although, tbh, you've got me thinking because when we come to it, maybe I'd stand by it. That what the Steelers do at the rest of the roster matters but when it comes to QB, I feel different and a lot less optimistic they can find a dude as it stands. I mean, QB *is* different. It's a harder to play position where young players need more development, the player has to be a lot more in sync with the coaches and what they want - and then has a bigger impact on everything. The Steelers get Queen to play a role he probably shouldn't and he's disappointing but he's still a useful enough LB and the defence has more good days than bad and gets a bunch of hype. Even a total obvious day of drafting miscast like Kendrick Green didn't kill the team (just his career).

But the young QB's performance will be far more affected by coaching. Put a rookie contract QB in who's not been cast right and you've capped his and the team's ceiling there and then.

Throw in that Tomlin seems a lot less clued up about the position than virtually any other and, well... yeah. I am a bit worried that it doesn't matter what QB we draft, he's going to mess them up. He can't guaranteed mess up the likes of Frazier or Freiermuth or Porter who are pretty much plug and play, but there are no plug and play QBs. He doesn't seem to know what he wants, he doesn't seem to know how to tell good from bad, and he doesn't seem to know how to progress them. This will be his chance, this draft or next, to prove me wrong but I'm not confident. Hell, bluntly, I'm not sure he wants to do it. I remember Glazer saying Tomlin didn't want to start again around 2022. I don't think he's changed his mind.

The good news is he'll mostly delegate to Smith and Arth, and probably Sullivan a bit too if he's still around then. The bad news is if Smith shows the same judgment he did with Ridder, we're in trouble.
 
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With all of the comp picks next year, Pittsburgh actually has the capital to move up in what looks like a great year for quarterbacks. Manning, etc. Are next year. To reach in the first round .... again ... in a crappy year is such a Tomlin move on so many levels.
 
Does it seem like they are spending a lot of time on day 2 db and safety in hopes of trading down and getting the 2nd back. I also wonder if khan will trade back again from our 3rd to get more picks
 
Even if the Steelers are inclined to take Dart, and he’s coming in for a top 30 visit, it’s looking like he’ll be selected higher than the Steelers #21 pick…
 
Even if the Steelers are inclined to take Dart, and he’s coming in for a top 30 visit, it’s looking like he’ll be selected higher than the Steelers #21 pick…

Dart will need developed, and we know how that will go with Tomlin… the guy who thought Canada and a “living in his own fears” offense would develop KP.

I honestly have no idea how we get around the elephant in the room, even if they land some almost perfect QB prospect next spring.

If Steelers had landed Mahomes, Tomlin would have had a clown shoes OC like Fichtner developing him.. and when that didn’t work out probably would have went the same route and hired Canada.

Only way I see any hope is they land a really talented QB and Tomlin is smart enough to hire a talented young OC that understands the modern passing game.

Oh and Tomlin becomes hands off the offense.

What are the chances Tomlin finally hires a talented OC AND gives up control of the offense?

So basically just need a miracle.
 
Dart will need developed, and we know how that will go with Tomlin… the guy who thought Canada and a “living in his own fears” offense would develop KP.

I honestly have no idea how we get around the elephant in the room, even if they land some almost perfect QB prospect next spring.

If Steelers had landed Mahomes, Tomlin would have had a clown shoes OC like Fichtner developing him.. and when that didn’t work out probably would have went the same route and hired Canada.

Only way I see any hope is they land a really talented QB and Tomlin is smart enough to hire a talented young OC that understands the modern passing game.

Oh and Tomlin becomes hands off the offense.

What are the chances Tomlin finally hires a talented OC AND gives up control of the offense?

So basically just need a miracle.
Yeah, I don’t expect it to go well with Tomlin at the helm if they select a QB in the first round…just like Pickett…I don’t trust the staff knows what to look for and how to develop lol
 
Yeah, I don’t expect it to go well with Tomlin at the helm if they select a QB in the first round…just like Pickett…I don’t trust the staff knows what to look for and how to develop lol

The only almost Tomlin-fool proof guy would be Manning, as he is already surrounded by a wealth of knowledge with his family - and if he has their work ethic and guidance, even Tomlin couldn’t f*** him up.. I think…

This all relies on almost impossible odds of him having a great season, going agt family tradition and leaving school early - then the Steelers paying a king’s ransom to move up and take him.

But sadly that’s the only scenario I see that would be a QB that won’t get Tomlined.
 
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Dart will need developed, and we know how that will go with Tomlin… the guy who thought Canada and a “living in his own fears” offense would develop KP.

I honestly have no idea how we get around the elephant in the room, even if they land some almost perfect QB prospect next spring.

If Steelers had landed Mahomes, Tomlin would have had a clown shoes OC like Fichtner developing him.. and when that didn’t work out probably would have went the same route and hired Canada.

Only way I see any hope is they land a really talented QB and Tomlin is smart enough to hire a talented young OC that understands the modern passing game.

Oh and Tomlin becomes hands off the offense.

What are the chances Tomlin finally hires a talented OC AND gives up control of the offense?

So basically just need a miracle.
isn’t the feeling Smith and Arth did help JF improve amongst the league. Dart will need a redshirt year and doesn’t have any elite traits physically. He will have win pre snap and with anticipation like Burrow and Tua
 
Pickett didn’t have much to develop

So Tomlin drafted a guy who had very little to develop… even though he saw him for years right in his own practice facility?

And don’t try to blame Colbert, this was who Tomlin wanted - he has absolute power over his roster.

isn’t the feeling Smith and Arth did help JF improve amongst the league. Dart will need a redshirt year and doesn’t have any elite traits physically. He will have win pre snap and with anticipation like Burrow and Tua

If Fields improved, why did he get benched and then never given another chance when Wilson went off the rails?

Smith has never developed a young QB. His system is all about efficiency, ball control and making the QB stay out of the way.

It’s exactly why Tomlin wanted him for his risk adverse, QB killing offense.
 
Ok. Then why pick him in the first round? That’s on Tomlin. He wanted him. Either he’s a shitty judge of talent or he and staff can’t develop certain types of players like QBs and CBs, or both…
teams overdraft qbs every year. Look at this year. Ward is going 1-1 he is a cross between Geno and Love with Qb scout comparisons. Dart is getting Minishew and Drew Locke comps Sanders is getting Tua if he hits
 
So Tomlin drafted a guy who had very little to develop… even though he saw him for years right in his own practice facility?

And don’t try to blame Colbert, this was who Tomlin wanted - he has absolute power over his roster.



If Fields improved, why did he get benched and then never given another chance when Wilson went off the rails?

Smith has never developed a young QB. His system is all about efficiency, ball control and making the QB stay out of the way.

It’s exactly why Tomlin wanted him for his risk adverse, QB killing offense.
Just because he improved slightly doesn’t mean he gave them a shot at winning the playoff game . His best trait is still as a runner
His system isn’t about efficiency it’s about under center play action attacking the mof with in breaking routes he wants his qb to stay in the pocket it’s why he hates RW.
Yes the drafted the best qb in a crappy class
 
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Every QB entering the NFL has a ton of mental development to do. The idea that any of them, particularly one whose performance was littered with errors, doesn't have much to develop, is just complete madness.

I'd suggest the vast majority of them have room for development as a passer of the football too.

edit: And if we're talking about it in terms of Pickett didn't have a big ceiling, that his comps were Dalton/Carr, that this limits what there is to develop... sure, but they were so very far from getting near that, that clearly there was more development that could have been done. But wasn't.
 
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Just because he improved slightly doesn’t mean he gave them a shot at winning the playoff game . His best trait is still as a runner
His system isn’t about efficiency it’s about under center play action attacking the mof with in breaking routes he wants his qb to stay in the pocket it’s why he hates RW.
Yes the drafted the best qb in a crappy class

Can you name one young QB that was ever developed between Tomlin and Smith?

Pssst it’s zero… but we should be optimistic because.. Tomlin never had a losing season!

So f***ing stupid.

Tomlin saw KP every day in practice for years - again either he f***ed up his development or f***ed up evaluating him.

Either scenario is concerning, given how Tomlin had a massive advantage seeing KP every day.

Of course if Tomlin didn’t chase his worthless non-losing BS streak, he would have had a QB succession plan in place.

Thereby not being desperate to grab a guy in a weak class.

And back in 2019 me and many other fans were livid they traded for Fitz - 2020 was projected to be a strong QB class - and your elderly QB just blew out his elbow.

Tomlin was either a special kind of stupid not to have seen the writing on the wall or he prioritized his streak over the future of this team.

Translated - this mess is on him. As I’ve told you 1000 times.
 
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Can you name one young QB that was ever developed between Tomlin and Smith?

Pssst it’s zero… but we should be optimistic because.. Tomlin never had a losing season!

So f***ing stupid.

Tomlin saw KP every day in practice for years - again either he f***ed up his development or f***ed up evaluating him.

Either scenario is concerning, given how Tomlin had a massive advantage seeing KP every day.

Of course if Tomlin didn’t chase his worthless non-losing BS streak, he would have had a QB succession plan in place.

Thereby not being desperate to grab a guy in a weak class.

And back in 2019 me and many other fans were livid they traded for Fitz - 2020 was projected to be a strong QB class - and your elderly QB just blew out his elbow.

Tomlin was either a special kind of stupid not to have seen the writing on the wall or he prioritized his streak over the future of this team.

Translated - this mess is on him. As I’ve told you 1000 times.
Ben Roethlisberger.
 

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