OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: New Quarter Backs for the Handball team!

[JTG]

*shrugs* All you two are doing is confirming my belief that people form biases over "wow" athleticism and refuse to consider the many forms of athleticism. Fields has wow athleticism, but looking at the numbers suggests that on a normal passing down it doesn't translate into a huge advantage on most plays a QB would run.

Which is why I don't really care about Fields' athleticism. It doesn't translate into an advantage. The only place it's an advantage is rushing, and I don't value rushing in QBs so I don't care. Arm strength could theoretically translate into an advantage but hasn't yet for him and tbh, I'm curious as to whether there's any quantifiable advantage for big armed QBs in the NFL.

And to be more specific -

Pickett is faster over 10 than Fields, Fields is faster over 20 and 40.

And given the NFL doesn't host numbers for velocity my source isn't as official as I'd like, but google Herbert combine velocity and 55 is the number you'll see repeated. Site that's got this all is ourlads.com,


edit:

And to get ahead of the argument on rushing QBs, here's why I don't rate them (despite being a ton of fun to watch).

Here's the three things rushing QBs can do -

1) Make a ton of yards on well designed run plays - passing QBs can also make a ton of yards on well designed plays

2) Make plays where there is no space to throw - if there's genuinely nobody to throw to, odds are the defence has given up so much space that even a very average QB athlete can make 1st down and it's questionable how much worthwhile extra the running QB gets

3) Force the defence to account for their run and open up better passing opportunities - And here's the kicker because, while that happens, the QB then has to be a good enough passer to take advantage.

And if the QB is, then they're good enough to take advantage of designing passing opportunities instead, which go for further on average and involve less injury risk, so they'll be a passing QB instead.

And if they're not then it doesn't matter how good a rusher they are because they can't take advantage, and will also get shut down against teams that can shut down the run.

And if a QB isn't rushing very often, the difference between being an amazing rusher and a merely okay rusher is very marginal.



Double edit: Since we're going off into the reeds, I'm just going to bring this back to the home point -

For those of us who view QB as a mainly cerebral position, for those of us who put a big emphasis on mentally tough, smart, point guard types who come up big in the big moments, there's pretty much nothing that can be said that'll make us like Fields unless someone's got some really surprising data/highlights from somewhere.

And if we want to make it a comparison with Pickett and liking him more then

a) 4th quarter stats
b) The possibility he could be that 4th quarter player more often without an absolutely asinine system

And I'd be happy not to mention Pickett's name again for the rest of the thread. Hell, Fields' name.

I don't know man. There is something about the twitch of the guys. Fields is sudden. Kenny is kind of like Ben where it was a bit more lumbering. Kenny is a surprisingly awesome athlete though. You know I love him. I'm not saying this as a dig on Kenny. I just think that when the player is on the field, Justin Fields way of moving, his twitch, and his creativity and comfort running the ball surpass Kenny by a long shot. I also think Fields has a signficantly bigger arm. He is certainly not without his warts, but I think Fields warts may be easier to overcome than Kenny's were. For Kenny to be truly great, that guy was going to have to have nuts the size of grapefruits. I think there is potential there still he may. I hope it happens in Philly. That'd be an awesome story.

 

[Peat]

I don't know man. There is something about the twitch of the guys. Fields is sudden. Kenny is kind of like Ben where it was a bit more lumbering. Kenny is a surprisingly awesome athlete though. You know I love him. I'm not saying this as a dig on Kenny. I just think that when the player is on the field, Justin Fields way of moving, his twitch, and his creativity and comfort running the ball surpass Kenny by a long shot. I also think Fields has a signficantly bigger arm. He is certainly not without his warts, but I think Fields warts may be easier to overcome than Kenny's were. For Kenny to be truly great, that guy was going to have to have nuts the size of grapefruits. I think there is potential there still he may. I hope it happens in Philly. That'd be an awesome story.

There's definitely some things where Fields is a far more impressive athlete. I just don't think it's in every facet, and when we break it down, the facets in which he is leave me cold. I don't think they allow him to shortcut processing and accuracy. Either he finds those things or he's just a guy.

Although tbh I think there's very few athletes at the QB position whose athleticism allow them to thrive despite being a little behind in processing and accuracy. Maybe Josh Allen and that's it, and I wonder just how behind he is at those things any more anyway. He scored very high on S2 fwiw. Although apparently so did Fields. Maybe Fields will surprise me with his processing in a better situation (although it's not like this version of the Steelers is exactly QB friendly right now...)

 

[JTG]

There's definitely some things where Fields is a far more impressive athlete. I just don't think it's in every facet, and when we break it down, the facets in which he is leave me cold. I don't think they allow him to shortcut processing and accuracy. Either he finds those things or he's just a guy.

Although tbh I think there's very few athletes at the QB position whose athleticism allow them to thrive despite being a little behind in processing and accuracy. Maybe Josh Allen and that's it, and I wonder just how behind he is at those things any more anyway. He scored very high on S2 fwiw. Although apparently so did Fields. Maybe Fields will surprise me with his processing in a better situation (although it's not like this version of the Steelers is exactly QB friendly right now...)

So what facets is Justin Fields not better? I'm genuinely curious. I'd say Fields is pretty much a universally better athlete than Kenny.

 

[MrBrightside]

There's definitely some things where Fields is a far more impressive athlete. I just don't think it's in every facet, and when we break it down, the facets in which he is leave me cold. I don't think they allow him to shortcut processing and accuracy. Either he finds those things or he's just a guy.

Although tbh I think there's very few athletes at the QB position whose athleticism allow them to thrive despite being a little behind in processing and accuracy. Maybe Josh Allen and that's it, and I wonder just how behind he is at those things any more anyway. He scored very high on S2 fwiw. Although apparently so did Fields. Maybe Fields will surprise me with his processing in a better situation (although it's not like this version of the Steelers is exactly QB friendly right now...)

Lamar Jackson has won a couple of MVP's with exactly this profile.

I'm not a huge Fields guy but come on now.

 

[xlm34]

There's definitely some things where Fields is a far more impressive athlete. I just don't think it's in every facet, and when we break it down, the facets in which he is leave me cold. I don't think they allow him to shortcut processing and accuracy. Either he finds those things or he's just a guy.

Although tbh I think there's very few athletes at the QB position whose athleticism allow them to thrive despite being a little behind in processing and accuracy. Maybe Josh Allen and that's it, and I wonder just how behind he is at those things any more anyway. He scored very high on S2 fwiw. Although apparently so did Fields. Maybe Fields will surprise me with his processing in a better situation (although it's not like this version of the Steelers is exactly QB friendly right now...)

If some of the stuff I’ve read about Smith’s system is true, it might be as QB friendly for a guy like Fields as you’re gonna get. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good system, but the reads seem pretty simple and limited and won’t ask the QB to do all that much thinking. So for a guy like Fields, it seems pretty ideal.

As far as accuracy, disclaimer of PFF but maybe he’s got it deep down somewhere: PFF Data Study: Justin Fields was the most accurate quarterback in the PFF College era | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

 

[Peat]

So what facets is Justin Fields not better? I'm genuinely curious. I'd say Fields is pretty much a universally better athlete than Kenny.

As mentioned, Pickett is quicker over short areas per the testing.

And since I said "far more impressive" not better - as I said, I don't think Fields is far ahead on throw velocity. Not on short/intermediate throws anyway.

Also curious as to how Fields would compare in terms of breaking tackles as most of his highlights are him running free, but haven't watched enough video to know so merely curious.

Lamar Jackson has won a couple of MVP's with exactly this profile.

I'm not a huge Fields guy but come on now.

Jackson has a couple of MVPs based on hype and beating up bad teams, and the following post-season stats -

57.44 completion percentage, 6 TDs 6 Ints 26 sacks 11.8 sack percentage 6.02 adjusted yards per attempt

I know the post-season is harder, but suddenly posting Zach Wilson-esque stat lines is more than just harder.

Tbh, the way Lamar - who is very very good at what he does - fades in the post-season is a big reason of why I'm so down on the archetype.

If some of the stuff I’ve read about Smith’s system is true, it might be as QB friendly for a guy like Fields as you’re gonna get. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good system, but the reads seem pretty simple and limited and won’t ask the QB to do all that much thinking. So for a guy like Fields, it seems pretty ideal.

As far as accuracy, disclaimer of PFF but maybe he’s got it deep down somewhere: PFF Data Study: Justin Fields was the most accurate quarterback in the PFF College era | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

I can see the system working insofar as he fits it - I believe he doesn't target the middle much which is kind of what Smith needs but I might be wrong and conflating him with Russell Wilson.

But while the system's improved, the receiving talent is so-so and while I'm glad they drafted hard on the OL, realistically two rookies probably aren't going to result in a massive overnight boost.

Also I'm not against PFF but I have to say I find their use of the data curious - or, perhaps it's fairer to say it's aged badly as Kyler Murray and Baker Mayfield aren't exactly poster children for success. Whatever it is, I think it's pretty difficult to draw a correlation between NCAA accuracy and NFL accuracy when their top 10 for CPoE at that point are Fields/Mayfield/Jones/Burrow/Murray/Tagovailoa/Z Wilson/Trubisky/Lance/Mariota - a gristly gallery of failed expectations, Burrow and Tua aside - and their 5 for CPoE in the NFL (Mahomes/Watson/Jackson/Prescott/Herbert) consists on 4 guys the wrong side of average for NCAA CPoE. What I'm getting is there's no correlation between accuracy in college and accuracy in the NFL; if there is, you could bizarrely argue it's actually a negative one.

In any case, that doesn't feel like evidence he's got it deep down somewhere. Not unless we're starting the Zach Wilson redemption train...

... I really think the NFL needs to look at finding a more mentally demanding league than the NCAA for testing QB prospects in.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Interesting.

A team picking after the Steelers was talking crap about Fautanu and supposed injuries hoping that he fell to them. And in doing so gifted him to the Steelers.

Teams May Have Leaked Injury Information To Drop Troy Fautanu's Draft Stock

Expected to be selected within the top 15 of the 2024 NFL Draft, Troy Fautanu fell to the 20th pick. He’s not mad about his landing spot, a Steelers fan now playing for the franchise, but every pick worth their weight is prideful and wants to hear their name called as early as possible...

steelersdepot.com

 

[Peat]

Another interesting tidbit from the Depot - Steelers worked out McCormick last minute at C

Mason McCormick Worked Out For Steelers As A Center Last Minute Says South Dakota State Offensive Coordinator

Before the 2024 NFL draft, the Pittsburgh Steelers had a massive hole at center, cutting previous starter Mason Cole earlier in the offseason and missing out on all of the major free agents at the position. Now, that problem is solved with the team drafting Zach Frazier in the second round, a...

steelersdepot.com

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Bryant McFadden Says His 'Explosive Playmaker' Source Is 'Third Or Fourth Party' With No Direct Steelers Connection

Former Pittsburgh Steelers cornerback Bryant McFadden made Twitter waves Monday when he tweeted that Omar Khan, the Pittsburgh Steelers GM, was “very close” to a deal for an explosive playmaker. Making the media rounds the last two days, Khan poured cold water on the idea, saying the team isn’t...

steelersdepot.com

Just gonna leave this here…

… for the big dummies…

… you all know who you are…

I may or may not be referring to myself.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Journalism in the 21st century.

It doesn't matter if it is true.

What matters is if you click.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Totally disagree. In today's NFL, a QBs feet are very important and they can actually get a QB who struggles making reads another option to pick up positive yards. Arm strength, I'm going to also disagree. Years ago...you are correct. Now with how pass happy teams are you need to be one of two types of QBs - you need to be an assassin on the short/intermediate game. High completion percentage and constantly moving the chains, or you have to be able to step up and rip the ball into tight deep windows because every f***ing team plays in a nickel set now for a good portion of their defense.

There are two things that will help any QB in Pittsburgh now - a great RB duo and a line that should be a top 5 unit in time.

Sometimes a QB is in the wrong system. Remember, Nagy was only fired last year and that offense was seen as every bit as bad as Canada's. Just like with Kenny, Fields was in a bad situation. Is Fields a franchise QB? Right now, no. He has super high end traits to develop though, and he showed in small spurts what he's capable of. Fields needed to sit. Chicago didn't have that luxury which is why I am so anti- taking QB's high in the draft if your team blows. The player has to be so insanely special to overcome that and those guys very rarely come out of the draft immediately ready to do that unless they are put in a system where they just have to do the things well they already do well. Coach-OC-QB group is so important.

This is simply incorrect. High mobility is not a requirement, a decent amount of agility and a 40 in the 4.7-4.6 range is more than adequate. Being fast is an add on feature that comes with the price of reduced longevity and having to deal with a guy who will often run when he shouldn’t.

The primary jobs of a QB are 1. Leading the offense 2. Delivering the ball to the receivers. I don’t care how mobile a guy is if he lacks in those departments. It is not a core skill to be highly mobile and it’s arguable how advantageous it really is.

I say it all the time because it bares repeating: the NFL is not Madden.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Ohio State doesn't play in a cupcake division like Pitt does.

Anyway, I even like Pickett and I think the comments you're making about him are ridiculous. This idea that he had no faults and was let down by Canada is just entirely baseless and frankly moronic. I was in the "let's see how he does with a new OC" camp as well, but that doesn't change that he was extremely ineffective in the NFL so far and showed massive issues with bailing out of the pocket prematurely, not identifying open targets and defaulting to checking the ball down far too much.

In the two years in the NFL, Pickett was clearly worse than Fields by any measure you can look at and showed no sort of talents that suggest he has a higher upside than Fields. I was willing to give him another year to see if Pickett could show that, but he absolutely did not show that in his first 2 years.

The Big Ten if you remove Ohio State (which we do for Fields because, you know, he didn't play Ohio State) is the ACC: 1 or 2 good teams and a bunch of patsies.

Who said Pickett had no faults? I said he had issues with happy feet. He did sometimes have issues with accuracy (a lot of which I do chalk up to being uncomfortable with his OL). But other than that I didn't see any glaring problems. He doesn't have a noodle arm, he has good leadership qualities, he's mobile enough to extend plays and/or pick up extra yards, he limited his turnovers, he showed flashes of delivering when it matters, and in the very limited time we got to see him without Matt Canada running the offense, he looked a lot better.

I understand why they had to move him. It's unfortunate because I think he has the potential to be a good QB.

If you think Fields looked better you simply have no ability to accurately gauge the QB position beyond a shallow dip into stats (and you're probably mesmerized by running QBs).

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

The more I watch and read about Roman Wilson, he's a dawg. I'm really excited to see how he breaks into the league because I think he could burst on the scene, I think.

He and Maye were my 2 fav players in this draft. I knew it was possible we could get 1 of them

Neither KP or JF are long term answers. Neither process well. Fields is the more dangerous runner and has a better arm talent and natural tools than Kp

That's the lot of it. Sticky this and let's move onto other topics

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Sticky this and let's move onto other topics

I hate Tomlin. How do you feel about him?

 

[Peat]

How about 2025 mocks as a topic of discussion?

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I hate Tomlin. How do you feel about him?

Heresy!

Fautanu and Jones. LT or RT, how do you see it?

 

[Peat]

Heresy!

Fautanu and Jones. LT or RT, how do you see it?

Fautanu to LT, Jones to Full Back.

 

[WickedWrister]

Cam Heyward interview with Jaylen Warren and Fautanu from over the weekend:

Haven't watched the whole thing but I've seen some tweets about Warren's comments regarding the QB changes. "Night and day difference with their leadership"

-Warren thinks Fields or Calvin Austin is the fastest on the team.

-ST Coordinator talked about using Fields on kick off return

-Thinks banning hip drop tackles is making the game soft

-Difference between Canada and Arthur Smith so far, "Very interactive in the meetings. You want to pay attention or he's gonna call you out if you're not paying attention. Speed off the ball, break the huddle fast, no lolly gagging"

 

[Peat]

Cam Heyward interview with Jaylen Warren and Fautanu from over the weekend:

Haven't watched the whole thing but I've seen some tweets about Warren's comments regarding the QB changes. "Night and day difference with their leadership"

-Warren thinks Fields or Calvin Austin is the fastest on the team.

-ST Coordinator talked about using Fields on kick off return

-Thinks hip drop tackles are making the game soft

-Difference between Canada and Arthur Smith so far, "Very interactive in the meetings. You want to pay attention or he's gonna call you out if you're not paying attention. Speed off the ball, break the huddle fast, no lolly gagging"

I am once again blown away by what I hear of Canada.

Incidentally, assuming it's been reported correct, Warren pinpoints the QB change as being a lot more detail orientated. Which, again, probably stems from Canada.

I don't think I've ever wanted a sports coach put in a medieval stocks situation more in my entire life.

 

[Night Shift]

I don't think I've ever wanted a sports coach put in a medieval stocks situation more in my entire life.

You punish the enabler not the enabled.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Here is an asinine twist on the Fields convo:

Jaylen Warren: Steelers' special teams coach has discussed Justin Fields returning kicks

Cordarrelle Patterson, Justin Fields could be compelling one-two punch.

www.nbcsports.com

This sounds like something we would make up around here and call ea other tools.

Heresy!

Fautanu and Jones. LT or RT, how do you see it?

I was concerned about Jones’ pass protection on the right side, and he’s hinted he wants to go back to LT.

So I’d probably like to see him back at LT.

Fautanu seems to have more versatility also, so it seems like the logical first step.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

How about 2025 mocks as a topic of discussion?

3rd straight OT in R1 because it’s BPA and Fautanu goes to OG

 

[Peat]

3rd straight OT in R1 because it’s BPA and Fautanu goes to OG

Love it, lets do it. Book it early.

 

[WickedWrister]

Decision on 5th year options for Najee/Fields are due today. Should know by 4pm

 

[Pens1566]

Decision on 5th year options for Najee/Fields are due today. Should know by 4pm

I can see arguments both for/against the Harris 5th yr option.