OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Its January and we are still talking about Handball!?! Currently 10-6

[xlm34]

He seems to me like a better version of Warren. He's got speed and though he's not the biggest, he runs hard. He's a better receiver and overall athlete, though, I think.

I was talking to a friend and they said "Yeah, but you want a change of pace back." I can understand the logic, but I don't know if I buy into that philosophy anymore.

Yeah I don’t know what to think about that. I get the idea behind the change of pace backs but the thought of having two Warrens getting 15 touches apiece doesn’t sound so bad to me.

 

[MrBrightside]

Unless you have one of the top 3 or 4 RB's around, most of them are fairly interchangeable. I wouldn't invest a lot of resources at the position, particularly when higher leverage spots like WR and CB and OT are needs.

 

[MrBrightside]

Yes he should just go the Qb store and buy 3

I mean, that's a fair point, but they passed on Hurts to take Claypoole. They showed no interest in Mayfield or Darnold on multiple occasions. They've hired OC's whose focus has been to support the defense rather than develop QB or offenses. To give him the pass on this subject that you give him on everything is ridiculous.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

The two-back, change-of-pace thing is tricky because the roles are reversed. It's no longer the carries-munching one-cut power back spelled by the playmaking receiver, it's the other way around. ort of. A dynamic, playmaking back selled by a pounder.

Cook in Buffalo and Gibbs in Detroit are the models, IMO. Henry is a unicorn. And guys like Bijan, Taylor and KW3 aren't elevating their teams. Find a guy in next year's draft like Irving in TB, and we're talking. I don't follow CFB closely enough but since I'm in Columbus, Treveyon Henderson seems to fit the profile. And Jeanty of course.

EDIT: I should add that our NFL team may not be structured/schemed in such a way as to take advantage of what I believe to be this shift in backfield philosophy.

 

[pistolpete11]

Unless you have one of the top 3 or 4 RB's around, most of them are fairly interchangeable. I wouldn't invest a lot of resources at the position, particularly when higher leverage spots like WR and CB and OT are needs.

Like I said, I'm not sold on it 100%, but the argument would be that there are situations where it could be beneficial to have a 240lb guy that can break a tackle, fall forward, and/or push the pile. Edit: But as @Double-Shift Lasse said, that guy being your primary back is going the way of the dinosaurs in the modern NFL.

In general, I agree to not invest in RB, though. A good O-line will make a mediocre RB look good and a mediocre line will make a good RB look mediocre. That's why I disagreed with taking Najee when they did. Their O-line was a mess at the time.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Deleted

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I mean, that's a fair point, but they passed on Hurts to take Claypoole. They showed no interest in Mayfield or Darnold on multiple occasions. They've hired OC's whose focus has been to support the defense rather than develop QB or offenses. To give him the pass on this subject that you give him on everything is ridiculous.

I am not even sure about Darnold right now his playoff game on Monday is huge for his money. Minnesota as koc and multiple weapons on offense but Detroit blitzed him like crazy. A win he gets a Daniel Jones contract
Baker has really good wr in Tampa they literally took a wr after we took Wilson Macmilian who replaced Godwin seamlessly
I do think Fields with 2 top 10 wr and a top 5 o line can use rpo like hurts

Like I said, I'm not sold on it 100%, but the argument would be that there are situations where it could be beneficial to have a 240lb guy that can break a tackle, fall forward, and/or push the pile. Edit: But as @Double-Shift Lasse said, that guy being your primary back is going the way of the dinosaurs in the modern NFL.

In general, I agree to not invest in RB, though. A good O-line will make a mediocre RB look good and a mediocre line will make a good RB look mediocre. That's why I disagreed with taking Najee when they did. Their O-line was a mess at the time.

Yes look at Philly going from swift to Barkley

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Cooks is on an offense that had 13 people catch a td and Allen was the main threat. Gibbs is explosive but he is the 4th guy you worry about in Detroit

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Cooks is on an offense that had 13 people catch a td and Allen was the main threat. Gibbs is explosive but he is the 4th guy you worry about in Detroit

A guy who can do a lot without needing 25 touches is exactly what I'm talking about. If you're worried about three guys more than Gibbs you're making a mistake.

And yet I acknowledged that this type of back might not excel in the system the Steelers currently employ. That's too bad, IMO.

Ultimately, my point is that a two-back backfield and change-of-pace aren't defined the way the used to be, or at least it's evolving.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

A guy who can do a lot without needing 25 touches is exactly what I'm talking about. If you're worried about three guys more than Gibbs you're making a mistake.

And yet I acknowledged that this type of back might not excel in the system the Steelers currently employ. That's too bad, IMO.

Ultimately, my point is that a two-back backfield and change-of-pace aren't defined the way the used to be, or at least it's evolving.

But Detroit literally has the 2 back system you want. Montgomery is the bruiser the bully Gibbs is the speed RB. Before Montgomery injury he had 1 20 carry game this season. They have Brown as the wr 1 and Williamson as the deep threat. A chain moving TE and a Qb who excels using play action
Cook has 1 20 carry game this season which to me is crazy because his Qb has 3 12 carry games this season

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

But Detroit literally has the 2 back system you want. Montgomery is the bruiser the bully Gibbs is the speed RB. Before Montgomery injury he had 1 20 carry game this season. They have Brown as the wr 1 and Williamson as the deep threat. A chain moving TE and a Qb who excels using play action
Cook has 1 20 carry game this season which to me is crazy because his Qb has 3 12 carry games this season

Yes Detroit is balanced and has weapons. But you aren't understanding the point I'm trying to make. Let me know if it's worth it to make one more effort to say the same thing again.

 

[End of Line]

Good for Cam

 

[pistolpete11]

Good for Cam

Pretty remarkable for a 35 year old who certain people wanted to dump this past offseason.

 

[xlm34]

This team took Kendrick Green instead of Quinn Meinerz

That 2021 offseason was rough.

 

[Peat]

The thing about Tomlin and the QB situation - and I absolutely blame Tomlin for this roster and will repeatedly say this is the house that Mike built - is that he's very far from the only decision maker there and we have zero idea who's pushing for what.

Take Hurts over Claypool. Maybe Colbert went "we got a back-up QB with potential last year, I'm not even discussing going back there". Maybe Rooney went "guys you've get a Steelers legend, you're going to support him, not replace him, end of discussion". We know from Ben's own mouth that it was Rooney who wanted Ben back for his last year when Colbert didn't and Tomlin was ambivalent, so it seems very credible that Rooney was unshiftable there.

Post-Ben I'll blame him more but I have to say that at this point, I find it hard to say I look at a scenario and think "why weren't you involved you dummy". Mayfield wasn't a success for Carolina so I can't say I'd have wanted the team to trade for Mayfield rather than draft Pickett. Pickett deserved backing after the 2022 season so I'm not grinding my teeth that they didn't get Mayfield then either. If Mayfield had been out there this off-season I might be a little mad but sometimes the timelines don't marry up. Darnold, well, we'll see, but KOC and Jefferson is arguably the single greatest situation for a QB to walk into in the league and I don't know that I'd trust Darnold to be a dude outside that situation.

Blame Tomlin for the ultra-conservative atmosphere that makes developing QBs and skill players so much harder? Way ahead of you. Want Tomlin gone in the partial hope they install a guru who can maybe get something out of nothing? Yes.

Think that Tomlin's a big part of why the Steelers have missed out on a bunch of good QB options? Not so sure. Not like the NFL world was pounding the table for "those are good starters going dirt cheap" anyway.

He seems to me like a better version of Warren. He's got speed and though he's not the biggest, he runs hard. He's a better receiver and overall athlete, though, I think.

I was talking to a friend and they said "Yeah, but you want a change of pace back." I can understand the logic, but I don't know if I buy into that philosophy anymore.

You reached the point I was going to make anyway but this is the post I had saved for quoting so I'll just say it anyway - the logical extrapolation of wanting this sort of combo, which I think I do, is to replace Warren with a better shifty back and find another big boy back to replace Harris. I kind of wonder what Dillion might cost in FA.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Thank you.

I'm so sick of hearing about "execution" and "they need more talent". It's all a failing of Tomlin

DK I think comes closest to getting it.

Mike Tomlin in many ways would rather be right than win.

He is stubborn to a fault and never one to admit he was wrong about something.

The second closest thing, I think- also said by DK.

Tomlin views the game through the prism of how his defense will be impacted.

He wants to score points, but he mostly uses his offense to protect his defense.

Hence his obsession with "possessing the ball" and "weighty downs".

Which is also why he harps on execution...because such a strategy also limits his offense's chances, every mistake gets magnified.

 

[TimmyD]

Not that I had any strong feelings towards Beck but he's actually not going to be in the draft this year.

Not gonna lie, I don’t really get his decision to do this. By all accounts this QB class is pretty weak so I think he still would have been a mid round pick even after his injury. I feel like next years class is better and he could get lost in the shuffle, especially if he has a bad year.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

just some thoughts on the upcoming game...

I expect if this game were to be played 20 times, that the Ravens would win 16 of 'em and most of those would be a comfortable victory. More talented, better coached, and playing at home.

However, I am anticipating a possibility that Tomlin actually throws some caution to the wind and has a game plan that is a little more desperate and creative. And that Tomlin manages to squeeze in an additional 2-3 horseshoes up his ass beyond the standard Sunday 7 starter pack he normally rocks and that we actually get some curveballs past the Ravens.

And say we knock off Baltimore in a close game doing the above? Folks on here and the NFL media will be full throttle go-go gadget boner for Tomlin, with all the I told ya so talk, fawning over our fearless bug-eyed leader, talking about how under-appreciated he is (which is ironic as Tomlin is probably the most over-appreciated head coach in the league)...

And that will be all fine and well for a week. The pom-poms will be out, the pitchers of kool-aid will be passed around merrily, and all of us will be fat and happy in a post-victory stupor.

...But I won't be fooled for a second. Because I know that he's a natural coward. In a big moment when bold creativity is needed, he will ultimately crawl into his safe little hole and play not to lose rather than risk it to win. And that ain't winning us jack shit of importance. We'll get knocked out the next week and will have all of the same issues then, but made doubly worse with a playoff win. Tomlin will be that more incentivized to keep trudging along and staying the course. We were 10-3! We won a playoff game! We're sooooooo close! The odds of signing Russ to an extension greatly increase with a playoff win, especially if he plays well. We'll run back the same coaching staff, like our dumbass OL coach who should've resigned of embarrassment after the Dotson debacle.

So let's put on our big boy pants, swallow our pride instead of swallowing the rah-rah bullshit, and let's hope for the best outcome for a variety of reasons: the Steelers getting completely embarrassed.

 

[Peat]

Not gonna lie, I don’t really get his decision to do this. By all accounts this QB class is pretty weak so I think he still would have been a mid round pick even after his injury. I feel like next years class is better and he could get lost in the shuffle, especially if he has a bad year.

Ewers allegedly has a 6m offer to back into the portal. If Beck gets even half that, he'll get the majority of a mid round rookie deal in one year. He also gets to gamble on having a good year and getting back in the 1st round. Makes sense to me.

Tbh, at this point, I don't get why any QB is going to come out unless they've run out of eligibility or are getting 1st round grades. The best guys are getting 1m+ deals consistently or, in other words, getting paid more to be the king in NCAA than they'll get paid to be the clipboard carrier in the NFL.

just some thoughts on the upcoming game...

I expect if this game were to be played 20 times, that the Ravens would win 16 of 'em and most of those would be a comfortable victory. More talented, better coached, and playing at home.

However, I am anticipating a possibility that Tomlin actually throws some caution to the wind and has a game plan that is a little more desperate and creative.

I'm not. It'll start with trying to contain Jackson the same way he always does and lots of ball control to try and help the guys doing so. Maybe he'll throw a few creative twists on it but it will be the same.

We'll run back the same coaching staff, like our dumbass OL coach who should've resigned of embarrassment after the Dotson debacle.

Tbf, Meyer only coached Dotson for one year and arrived to a situation where most of the damage was already done.

 

[pistolpete11]

You reached the point I was going to make anyway but this is the post I had saved for quoting so I'll just say it anyway - the logical extrapolation of wanting this sort of combo, which I think I do, is to replace Warren with a better shifty back and find another big boy back to replace Harris. I kind of wonder what Dillion might cost in FA.

With Smith's offense and how much he likes to use heavy packages, probably.

I don't know if it's necessary in the NFL anymore, though. You can still have an effective run game and pick up short yardage situations by spreading teams out. Penn State does it. Yes, Allen is a more north-south type of runner, but they still use Singleton in short yardage situations a lot, too. I mean, he scored 3 TDs last night all from within 7 yards.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Not gonna lie, I don’t really get his decision to do this. By all accounts this QB class is pretty weak so I think he still would have been a mid round pick even after his injury. I feel like next years class is better and he could get lost in the shuffle, especially if he has a bad year.

Mensha went to duke on a 4 million nil deal. Could easily see Miami who is went to pay him that

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Pretty remarkable for a 35 year old who certain people wanted to dump this past offseason.

I'll be honest. I definitely was in the needed to move on because he wasn't worth 22mil. They signed him to an extension and lowered his cap hit to an amount I thought was acceptable.

That being said, Cam came back and played at a 22mil+ level. Bravo to him. I will never doubt him again. IMO, he was the team MVP.

Interesting enough, Cam has a 13.45 roster bonus due on March 18th. I figure they rework his contract and give him the 13.45mil as a signing bonus to spread it out over two years, lowering his cap hit to 12.95mil from 19.65mil for the 2025 season as well as guarantee his 1.3mil base salary. That would increase his 2026 cap hit to 25.875mil and dead cap to 11.625mil from 4.9mil.

 

[JTG]

This team took Kendrick Green instead of Quinn Meinerz

That 2021 offseason was rough.

Quinn Meinerz has been one of my favorite prospects in he last 5-7 years. He was one of those dudes that you watch and you immediately see how he's an offensive lineman in the NFL - completely translates...was learning center. Long arms and super strong, but could still move reasonably well.

Then we draft Kendrick Green and they play 5 clips of him getting walked back into his QB. What a travesty that was. They liked Green's movement, but for f*** sake...he's a C. Give me the dude with lead in his ass and a bit of an attitude.

Not gonna lie, I don’t really get his decision to do this. By all accounts this QB class is pretty weak so I think he still would have been a mid round pick even after his injury. I feel like next years class is better and he could get lost in the shuffle, especially if he has a bad year.

None of it makes sense...until you factor in NIL. JUCO talent is about to go way up, because I can see more and more kids stay in college for 4 years AND JUCO doesn't count towards their 4 years of eligibility anymore. Pay me 3m to stay at OSU for 4 years and be treated like a God...hard sell. NIL deals can retire these kids. They never have to play a snap of football if they don't want to. It's crazy.

 

[JTG]

Thank you.

I'm so sick of hearing about "execution" and "they need more talent". It's all a failing of Tomlin

DK I think comes closest to getting it.

Mike Tomlin in many ways would rather be right than win.

He is stubborn to a fault and never one to admit he was wrong about something.

The second closest thing, I think- also said by DK.

Tomlin views the game through the prism of how his defense will be impacted.

He wants to score points, but he mostly uses his offense to protect his defense.

Hence his obsession with "possessing the ball" and "weighty downs".

Which is also why he harps on execution...because such a strategy also limits his offense's chances, every mistake gets magnified.

I have no problem having a defensive minded coach after Tomlin, but that defensive mind has to be a creative one. It has to be a new-aged Dick LeBeau where these blitzes are driving teams insane. If it isn't a guy like that, I'd like to see them bring in our first offensive coach ever.

The only way Tomlin sees success is if the game comes back around to how he likes it to be played. It probably will seeing as how he is still young, and then everyone will talk about how much of a genius he is.

 

[pistolpete11]

I'll be honest. I definitely was in the needed to move on because he wasn't worth 22mil. They signed him to an extension and lowered his cap hit to an amount I thought was acceptable.

That being said, Cam came back and played at a 22mil+ level. Bravo to him. I will never doubt him again. IMO, he was the team MVP.

Interesting enough, Cam has a 13.45 roster bonus due on March 18th. I figure they rework his contract and give him the 13.45mil as a signing bonus to spread it out over two years, lowering his cap hit to 12.95mil from 19.65mil for the 2025 season as well as guarantee his 1.3mil base salary. That would increase his 2026 cap hit to 25.875mil and dead cap to 11.625mil from 4.9mil.

I don't really understand the NFL cap and don't really care to learn.

But I saw what this defense looked like with him and without him in 2023 and I knew they couldn't let him go.

They do need to start on a succession plan, though.