OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: 5 and 2 Justin who? Hand the Fields to Wilson

[pistolpete11]

This just seems like semantics to me. When I say he's playing well, I mean that he's performing like a mid tier average QB. I fundamentally do not feel that an Arthur Smith offense can realistically be much more than that, let alone the other issues the offense has right now.

Like I said above, my barometer for a "good" Justin Fields game is 250 passing yards and 2 TDs, whether it be a passing touchdown or a Fields rushing TD. What I'd call a good year for Fields is like 3800 passing yards, 25 passing TDs and 8 rushing TDs in 17 games with a low amount of turnovers. That's basically just Jalen Hurts with fewer turnovers.

Right. It's good...for Justin Fields. Or put another way, if you grade him on a curve.

They really don’t. They want to control the clock and play good defense. Unlike previous years, the defense is actually good enough where that might be a good strategy. This team isn’t built for shootouts - maybe a WR trade could change that a little, but this style of play is by design.

I'm not saying shootouts, but I don't believe this strategy works in the modern NFL. At least not when it comes to the playoffs. You are eventually going to have to score some points. You can't rely on your defense to consistently hold good teams to 10 points.

 

[Peat]

Until we are absolutely in an era where the best NFL defences are expected to consistently shut down the best NFL offences - and this team's defence consistently shows up to playoff games and regular season games vs Super Bowl contenders - I will not be happy with this team until it shows it has the offence to have a shot at a shootout game. I think they're too common to build a team otherwise.

So I 100% get pistolpete's frustration.

But the reason we're not seeing that is a long way away from being solely Fields. I don't think it's sensible to tie grading his individual performance to the Steelers' many problems and defensive helicopter parenting. There's still plenty of things to pick at with him without doing that but a lot of the more damning looking stuff is out of his control.

I'd also add that, much as I'd like this team to at least look like they care about the idea of one day having a big scoring explosive offence, right now with all the changes I struggle to argue with the idea of just racking up wins while letting people get used to each other.



Also, if anyone feels the need to bring some happiness into their life, just search for Zach Frazier on Twitter and watch all the pancaking gifs.

 

[WickedWrister]

I'm not going to post the QB efficiency graph again but I think it backs up a lot of what people are saying, as well as the QB comps he's getting (Hurts, Geno Smith).

Almost exactly league average in terms of EPA per play, but near the top of the league in accuracy.

Matches the eye test to me. He's not creating a ton of explosive plays and is doing pretty much what is expected but is completing passes at a rate above almost all his peers.

 

[JTG]

Daniels will be the best out of those top three IMO. His ability to process the game and his ability to read defenses supersedes the other two. Never thought much of Maye.

Agreed. He was pro-ready right out of the box. "Arm angles!!!!1!" Who gives a shit if Williams can throw a ball while doing a handstand. A running QB is great when they can use it as an additional weapon to play clean QB. Fields is doing that now. Be efficient. Kill them when they let you with the legs. It's a perfect recipe for an offense that prides itself on being anemic

'We're 3 games in folks. I've said it many times and I'll say it many more. We live in an instant gratification society/world and lack the patience to actually analyze things like football performances accurately.

Fields is not some elite QB. I don't think anyone believes that.

With that being said, if he can continue to take care of the ball, make enough plays to get us 20ish points a game, this team will win more games than they won't. The D is that good.

Fields is also young enough, coming from a dumpster fire of an org (Chicago) which should lead people to conclude he has room to grow. How much is debatable, but that Chargers game was proof he can go through progressions and make quality, high level NFL throws.

We have the brutal back 3rd of a schedule, so let's enjoy the wins and somewhat surprising play, and then evaluate what we have in Fields (and company) when the going gets real tough.

This offense needs to score 21 points a game. If they can do that, they will win most of the time. A big way they are going to do that is to sustain TOP and to get points every drive of some sort.

He ain't getting that job back.

Anyone, including analysts and former QBs, saying Fields has been 'good' is grading him on a curve of low expectations and that they are 3-0. If they were 0-3, they would be saying they need more out of him. He hasn't been asked to do much and he hasn't screwed that up. That's not a knock. It's just the truth.

That is really playing a chain of what-if's. This who thing worst together, not independently. Fields doing what he's doing is providing the team what it needs to play great defense and sustain offensive drives. He's taking care of the football. No team really NEEDS a QB to do more than that.

His #s would also be much better (from week 2) if it weren't for a few plays being called back. Couple of legit downfield throws there.

Also a valid point. Big yards and at least 1 touchdown.

Until we are absolutely in an era where the best NFL defences are expected to consistently shut down the best NFL offences - and this team's defence consistently shows up to playoff games and regular season games vs Super Bowl contenders - I will not be happy with this team until it shows it has the offence to have a shot at a shootout game. I think they're too common to build a team otherwise.

So I 100% get pistolpete's frustration.

But the reason we're not seeing that is a long way away from being solely Fields. I don't think it's sensible to tie grading his individual performance to the Steelers' many problems and defensive helicopter parenting. There's still plenty of things to pick at with him without doing that but a lot of the more damning looking stuff is out of his control.

I'd also add that, much as I'd like this team to at least look like they care about the idea of one day having a big scoring explosive offence, right now with all the changes I struggle to argue with the idea of just racking up wins while letting people get used to each other.



Also, if anyone feels the need to bring some happiness into their life, just search for Zach Frazier on Twitter and watch all the pancaking gifs.

Frazier is every bit of the elite C's in the league.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Right. It's good...for Justin Fields. Or put another way, if you grade him on a curve.

It's not "grading him on a curve", it's taking into account all of the limitations of the offense and looking reasonably at what a player could be doing in those limitations, This includes all of Fields, playcalling, lack of playmaking talent at WR, struggling running game and whatnot.

Fields is playing well in the context of what he's being asked to do. He's playing like a mid-tier starting QB in a situation that has a ceiling for how effective a QB can be. That's not "grading on a curve", that's understanding that an offense consists of way more than just a QB.

But the reason we're not seeing that is a long way away from being solely Fields. I don't think it's sensible to tie grading his individual performance to the Steelers' many problems and defensive helicopter parenting. There's still plenty of things to pick at with him without doing that but a lot of the more damning looking stuff is out of his control.

Yeah this is exactly it. I don't think it makes sense to say that Fields only looks good "on a curve" when there's realistically only so much he can do with how the offense is structured and what plays are being called.

Dak Prescott leads the NFL in passing yards on the year with 851, but he's also averaging over 40 passes a game and his per pass numbers are all very not that good. Looking purely at how many yards he is getting doesn't take into account the offense that Dallas is running. He was much better in 2023 despite his total yardage numbers being better this year so far.

 

[Peat]

Also weird thing about Fields -

He got a really good S2 score and is the highest scorer in the NFL on the AIQ's test for receiving and retaining information. Per the testing, he shouldn't be the "just too slow" guy he was in Chicago or early here. And I saw that a few weeks ago, and kind of shrugged and filed it away, but it does make me wonder that much harder if his problem wasn't really frail confidence and they can clean him up and do the miracle.

We'll see. Everybody has bad times, going to see what his look like. But... just an interesting nugget.

It's not "grading him on a curve", it's taking into account all of the limitations of the offense and looking reasonably at what a player could be doing in those limitations

I have to say this does look like the exact same thing only worded a bit differently for different emotional spins.

Frazier is every bit of the elite C's in the league.

He might be my favourite Steeler already and I never had one before.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I have to say this does look like the exact same thing only worded a bit differently for different emotional spins.

To me, “grading on a curve” is like saying “Fields is playing well because he’s performing better than he did last year”. It’s judging Fields’ performance based on his past performances and saying he’s doing well because he’s exceeding them.

I don’t think taking into account the context of the team, namely with how passing offense is capped by things completely outside of Fields’ control, is at all “grading with a curve”.

It’s the same as a RB with a great yards per carry that isn’t being utilized enough in an offense. If a guy is averaging 6 yards per carry consistently but is only getting 10 carries a game, how does it make sense to say he’s only playing well “on a curve” rather than he’s playing well and being underutilized?

 

[Peat]

As a fantasy football player, I really hope you’re right! Lol

KC seems totally fine grinding out these wins in the ugliest way possible.

This year has stunk for fantasy! I barely even look at my teams over the weekends. I probably spend more time apologising for telling my wife to take McCaffrey 1OA than I do looking at my own teams.

 

[Peat]

Trice to IR. Guess we knew what we were in for.

 

[pistolpete11]

That is really playing a chain of what-if's. This who thing worst together, not independently. Fields doing what he's doing is providing the team what it needs to play great defense and sustain offensive drives. He's taking care of the football. No team really NEEDS a QB to do more than that.

To do what?

To win 9 games? Sure, if that's your goal.

To win a Superbowl, let alone a playoff game or 2? Yeah, I do think you need more than that from your QB in today's NFL.

 

[xlm34]

It’s a small sample size but I think one of the more encouraging signs from Fields is the 2.82 second time to throw which is the best in his career. He just looks different than he did in Chicago.

 

[TNT87]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1838665680218120455

 

[T1K]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1838656666960535624

Ugh

 

[Empoleon8771]

To do what?

To win 9 games? Sure, if that's your goal.

To win a Superbowl, let alone a playoff game or 2? Yeah, I do think you need more than that from your QB in today's NFL.

That is not a Justin Fields exclusive issue, which is the main argument I’m making. The Steelers passing offense as a whole needs to be better, but that’s not solely on Fields. I’d even argue that a majority of it this year isn’t even on Fields.

I don’t know why you’re equating the entire passing offense as being just on Fields, especially with the playcalling.

 

[JTG]

Also weird thing about Fields -

He got a really good S2 score and is the highest scorer in the NFL on the AIQ's test for receiving and retaining information. Per the testing, he shouldn't be the "just too slow" guy he was in Chicago or early here. And I saw that a few weeks ago, and kind of shrugged and filed it away, but it does make me wonder that much harder if his problem wasn't really frail confidence and they can clean him up and do the miracle.

We'll see. Everybody has bad times, going to see what his look like. But... just an interesting nugget.



I have to say this does look like the exact same thing only worded a bit differently for different emotional spins.


He might be my favourite Steeler already and I never had one before.

It is so refreshing to see the ball get hiked and the guys on the opponents defensive line getting displaced. It's been a long time. Even Pouncey's final years, he really wasn't moving guys much.

 

[pistolpete11]

That is not a Justin Fields exclusive issue, which is the main argument I’m making. The Steelers passing offense as a whole needs to be better, but that’s not solely on Fields. I’d even argue that a majority of it this year isn’t even on Fields.

I don’t know why you’re equating the entire passing offense as being just on Fields, especially with the playcalling.

Bro, I don't know what argument you think I'm making. I've said I don't know how many times "he hasn't been asked to do much and he hasn't screwed that up." I'm just not going to say that equates to 'good', something I thought you then agreed with because you called him mid-tier and compared him to a bunch of mediocre QBs.

I then said in subsequent posts that it's the same Tomlinball they've been playing for 5 years and that they need to loosen the reigns on him to see what they have with him (something I said about Pickett, too, by the way, even though I think Pickett probably just sucks).

 

[Empoleon8771]

Bro, I don't know what argument you think I'm making. I've said I don't know how many times "he hasn't been asked to do much and he hasn't screwed that up." I'm just not going to say that equates to 'good', something I thought you then agreed with because you called him mid-tier and compared him to a bunch of mediocre QBs.

I then said in subsequent posts that it's the same Tomlinball they've been playing for 5 years and that they need to loosen the reigns on him to see what they have with him (something I said about Pickett, too, by the way, even though I think Pickett probably just sucks).

The initial argument was saying that Fields was only playing "well" if you grade him on a curve, and you're citing the team-wide passing numbers as evidence for that. You're saying he's not playing "well" because of team numbers that are at least partially outside of his control. He can only do what he's asked to do, and I think he's performing well for any QB that would be put in the same situation.

The Steelers passing offense as a whole is not playing well for NFL standards, but purely in terms of QB play in the Steelers passing offense, I think Fields is playing well. I just don't think it makes sense to solely say that Fields isn't playing well because the team totals aren't anything great, when the passing game is more than just the QB.

If you're comparing it to superbowl caliber QB standard, sure I can understand your thoughts. I'm just not doing that, not with Fields and not with the passing offense as a whole.

 

[pistolpete11]

The initial argument was saying that Fields was only playing "well" if you grade him on a curve, and you're citing the team-wide passing numbers as evidence for that. You're saying he's not playing "well" because of team numbers that are at least partially outside of his control. He can only do what he's asked to do, and I think he's performing well for any QB that would be put in the same situation.

The Steelers passing offense as a whole is not playing well for NFL standards, but purely in terms of QB play in the Steelers passing offense, I think Fields is playing well. I just don't think it makes sense to solely say that Fields isn't playing well because the team totals aren't anything great, when the passing game is more than just the QB.

If you're comparing it to superbowl caliber QB standard, sure I can understand your thoughts. I'm just not doing that, not with Fields and not with the passing offense as a whole.

That's the goal here innit? Or are you one these Never Had a Losing Season types?

 

[Night Shift]

Wow panties are in a bunch today over absolutely nothing.

Fields has proven he can at least be a average QB, no more or less. AVERAGE that's it.

That's the goal here innit? Or are you one these Never Had a Losing Season types?

They're the most fun.

 

[Peat]

Just realised the Steelers currently have more wins than the rest of the division playing together.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's the goal here innit? Or are you one these Never Had a Losing Season types?

Getting mad that a Honda Accord can't beat a formula 1 car in a race just doesn't seem all that logical to me.

 

[Night Shift]

Just realised the Steelers currently have more wins than the rest of the division playing together.

Yup, 6 more and after the 6th he can pack it in for the year with no consequence.

 

[pistolpete11]

Getting mad that a Honda Accord can't beat a formula 1 car in a race just doesn't seem all that logical to me.

Calling a Honda Accord a good car when it's racing against F1 cars doesn't seem logical to me.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Calling a Honda Accord a good car when it's racing against F1 cars doesn't seem logical to me.

No one is doing that, no one in here is saying "Justin Fields is a good starting QB". People are just saying he has played well.

Even in a best case scenario, he's likely only a mid-tier starter that might be on the fringes of the top-10. And that's a super optimistic way of looking at it. If you're going to put Fields on a standard of "if he's not Patrick Mahomes, he's not playing well", literally any QB this team is going to have for likely the foreseeable future is not going to be "playing well" in your eyes.

And yes, I don't even mean that Patrick Mahomes comparison as a hyperbolic representation of what you're arguing. That legitimately seems to be your argument here.

 

[Night Shift]

Really, cause people here yesterday were giving him the crown. Really pulled one on me did they?

If Fields keeps up the average play i think it says more about Chicago's staff than Fields.

The fact they kept the same coach when drafting Caleeb is awfully weird as well. You don't have to tell us about weirdo coach/owner dynamics since it's already in place here.