OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: 5 and 2 Justin who? Hand the Fields to Wilson

[Empoleon8771]

I think Fields is too young for me to write him off as not being able to get better, but at the same time his experience is his experience. I think it's entirely true that the Bears just ruined him by not developing him right, but there's nothing any team can do to actually help Fields hit the potential upside he had. You can try to undo the mistakes they made, but you can't get back the 3 years that they had him for.

That's somewhat of another factor for why I think my preferred course of action with the QB room is starting Wilson and drafting a QB to sit behind him and learn. I've mentioned Milroe a bunch, but I'd jump at the opportunity to treat Milroe like Love and have him sit for a few years behind Wilson. That being said, I don't know that he even lasts until the mid 1st round for them to even be in a position to trade up to get him.

 

[Peat]

I think Fields is too young for me to write him off as not being able to get better, but at the same time his experience is his experience. I think it's entirely true that the Bears just ruined him by not developing him right, but there's nothing any team can do to actually help Fields hit the potential upside he had. You can try to undo the mistakes they made, but you can't get back the 3 years that they had him for.

That's somewhat of another factor for why I think my preferred course of action with the QB room is starting Wilson and drafting a QB to sit behind him and learn. I've mentioned Milroe a bunch, but I'd jump at the opportunity to treat Milroe like Love and have him sit for a few years behind Wilson. That being said, I don't know that he even lasts until the mid 1st round for them to even be in a position to trade up to get him.

For what incredibly little it's worth, most big boards seem to have him top 10.

I'm idly curious as to what positions people are eying up at the top of the draft right now. WR and DL seem the staggeringly obvious two, but I think CB could be a sneaky under the radar need if they can't tie up Donte Jackson.

 

[Empoleon8771]

For what incredibly little it's worth, most big boards seem to have him top 10.

I'm idly curious as to what positions people are eying up at the top of the draft right now. WR and DL seem the staggeringly obvious two, but I think CB could be a sneaky under the radar need if they can't tie up Donte Jackson.

Yeah the main mock draft site I use has him at 7 and has 5 QBs going in the top-10. It has the Dolphins taking Beck, which is a silly suggestion but I figure the Giants take a QB instead.

The one saving grace though is that there aren't that many QB hungry teams this year. I think the Titans, Raiders and Giants are guaranteed to be taking a QB in the draft, but beyond that there aren't a ton of guys I'd say for sure are taking a QB. I think the Panthers could definitely take a QB, but do they give up on Young so quickly? The Browns make sense to take a QB to replace Watson, or at least sit behind Watson for a year before they release him. I don't think the Colts would draft a guy to replace Richardson but they may target a veteran to replace him as well.

This actually makes me reconsider whether Fields would definitely get a chance to be a starter somewhere. I think his play has warranted it, but there are really not many teams who need a QB right now. I could see the Colts having Fields as a stopgap and Richardson sitting behind him to develop a bit more, but that's really about it. I think it's totally possible that Fields doesn't get a starter's spot and he decides it's better to sit behind Wilson for 2 years and then start for the Steelers when he's 28.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Fields is not a starter on a championship team. Sure he can have a Minshew Briset role. The bar was very low when he got here he was treated like a backup

 

[The Old Master]

I'm not sure I agree with this.
Fields has been in the league for 4 years, played in 40+ games and has thrown 1,000 passes.

I don't think he's a Kid at all. I've seen players with the same experience be better AND worse. It's a talent thing at this point, not an experience thing.

that's fair....he's played 4 years, but his coaches did him no favors so basically, he had to start over. well that's how I'm looking at it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1852040338577461675

 

[Peat]

Yeah the main mock draft site I use has him at 7 and has 5 QBs going in the top-10. It has the Dolphins taking Beck, which is a silly suggestion but I figure the Giants take a QB instead.

The one saving grace though is that there aren't that many QB hungry teams this year. I think the Titans, Raiders and Giants are guaranteed to be taking a QB in the draft, but beyond that there aren't a ton of guys I'd say for sure are taking a QB. I think the Panthers could definitely take a QB, but do they give up on Young so quickly? The Browns make sense to take a QB to replace Watson, or at least sit behind Watson for a year before they release him. I don't think the Colts would draft a guy to replace Richardson but they may target a veteran to replace him as well.

This actually makes me reconsider whether Fields would definitely get a chance to be a starter somewhere. I think his play has warranted it, but there are really not many teams who need a QB right now. I could see the Colts having Fields as a stopgap and Richardson sitting behind him to develop a bit more, but that's really about it. I think it's totally possible that Fields doesn't get a starter's spot and he decides it's better to sit behind Wilson for 2 years and then start for the Steelers when he's 28.

Estimating QB demand is tough as while I think you've got the only three hurr doi QB teams, there's a bunch of maybes. Beyond Browns/Panthers/Colts you've got to consider that maybe the Rams and Seahawks are looking to draft a successor like the Steelers might look. (edit: and the Jets and maybe the Saints). There's also the possibility that one of the hurr doi QB teams would rather get Darnold, assuming he's available and ends the season well. Feels like that could be anything from one or none top 10 QBs to three or four. Depends what they think of them I guess.

Where that leaves Fields... you're not the first person I've seen suggest the Colts. Seems a Steichen style guy. But if I'm Fields' agent, I'm telling him that if he doesn't find a starter landing spot, he shouldn't tie himself to any team long term as a back-up. Never know when the opportunity is going to shake free.

 

[WickedWrister]

Texans just aren't very dynamic without Nico Collins and Diggs, them falling to 6-3 after losing to the Jets probably helps us in the short term AFC playoff picture I guess.

I think I'm out on Mike Williams. He got a bump in snaps with Allen Lazard on IR and I barely noticed him. Still one of the worst separators in the league and the Jets might be more inclined to keep him with the injury to Lazard.

 

[WickedWrister]

Estimating QB demand is tough as while I think you've got the only three hurr doi QB teams, there's a bunch of maybes. Beyond Browns/Panthers/Colts you've got to consider that maybe the Rams and Seahawks are looking to draft a successor like the Steelers might look. (edit: and the Jets and maybe the Saints). There's also the possibility that one of the hurr doi QB teams would rather get Darnold, assuming he's available and ends the season well. Feels like that could be anything from one or none top 10 QBs to three or four. Depends what they think of them I guess.

Where that leaves Fields... you're not the first person I've seen suggest the Colts. Seems a Steichen style guy. But if I'm Fields' agent, I'm telling him that if he doesn't find a starter landing spot, he shouldn't tie himself to any team long term as a back-up. Never know when the opportunity is going to shake free.

Titans are 1-6 and Levis/Rudolph aint it. Would not be surprised to see the Giants move on from Daniel Jones either if they finish with a top 10 pick. 2-6 right now.

Edit: Ahh I see Emp has mentioned these two teams - thats what I get for reading this thread bottom up.

I think I set my O/U at 4.5 1st round QB's this year and I'm sticking with that.

Sanders, Cam Ward, Carson Beck seem like the big 3 but that's far from consensus and we're still months away from draft szn.

Maybe one or two of Ewers, Nussmeier, Milroe or Allar sneak in as well. I know Nussmeier has been getting some buzz of late.

 

[Peat]

Titans are 1-6 and Levis/Rudolph aint it. Would not be surprised to see the Giants move on from Daniel Jones either if they finish with a top 10 pick. 2-6 right now.

Edit: Ahh I see Emp has mentioned these two teams - thats what I get for reading this thread bottom up.

I think I set my O/U at 4.5 1st round QB's this year and I'm sticking with that.

Sanders, Cam Ward, Carson Beck seem like the big 3 but that's far from consensus and we're still months away from draft szn.

Maybe one or two of Ewers, Nussmeier, Milroe or Allar sneak in as well. I know Nussmeier has been getting some buzz of late.

Yeah, Titans/Giants/Raiders are the three that have a new starting QB next season, no ifs or buts.

I haven't paid a huge amount of attention to the draft buzz but I could honestly see it being very low if teams aren't in love with this class. I know there's been questions over the class but I don't know if the questions are getting answered or getting louder. But one of those three could get Darnold, maybe one of those three picks up Fields and punts the question a year...

Also, and I don't know whether we'll see this come true, but one of the draft guys at ESPN says scouts and agents are telling QBs not to come out without two years of starting. Garrett Nussmeier would seem to be a test of that.

 

[DanielPlainview]

that going from a young inexperienced kid to a veteran should hold true for "most".

No lol there are a lot of “experienced” QBs who still suck. It’s the most difficult position in all sports to be good at. Most at the nfl level are average at best.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

that's fair....he's played 4 years, but his coaches did him no favors so basically, he had to start over. well that's how I'm looking at it.

Yea sometimes where you start with your environment in the NFL is too much to overcome. The Bears, just like most bad teams, had a poor surrounding cast (coaches and players included). It's also possible that even in a good environment JF wouldn't succeed. We'll never know.

But I can't remember many QB's after 4 years of being mediocre suddenly becoming the franchise guy many predicted. Seems like these things are apparent around year 2.

And I think we can remove Mike Williams as a trade target. The Jets see themselves as contenders now. They aren't but they can feel free to pretend for a week

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

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[xlm34]

Yeah, Titans/Giants/Raiders are the three that have a new starting QB next season, no ifs or buts.

I haven't paid a huge amount of attention to the draft buzz but I could honestly see it being very low if teams aren't in love with this class. I know there's been questions over the class but I don't know if the questions are getting answered or getting louder. But one of those three could get Darnold, maybe one of those three picks up Fields and punts the question a year...

Also, and I don't know whether we'll see this come true, but one of the draft guys at ESPN says scouts and agents are telling QBs not to come out without two years of starting. Garrett Nussmeier would seem to be a test of that.

I remember last year reading from Jeremiah or something that teams were not big fans of this QB class. And from the looks of it, things probably haven’t gotten much better in that regard. In a world where Penix and Nix go where they did though, I’m sure we’ll still see some QBs go higher than we thought.

It looks like one the Steelers should avoid, especially if it means trading up.

 

[Peat]

I remember last year reading from Jeremiah or something that teams were not big fans of this QB class. And from the looks of it, things probably haven’t gotten much better in that regard. In a world where Penix and Nix go where they did though, I’m sure we’ll still see some QBs go higher than we thought.

It looks like one the Steelers should avoid, especially if it means trading up.

That I both cannot argue with, and can by pointing out that Levis and the whole of the 2021 class went far later than forecast. The NFL's unpredictability cuts both ways.

I wonder if this is the year we see the return of day 2 QBs

 

[JTG]

Well I don't want to jinx it, but we could be seeing JF back in action. Either due to poor play or injury by Russ.

I think it's obvious that Fields doesn't have "it". The Steelers should be moving on from him unless he accepts a cheap backup role. Pretending that JF has some untapped potential is how you maintain mediocrity.

And I say this as someone who appreciates JF the person. He's been nothing but a decent dude about all of this and seems humble. Thank Christ KP8 got himself traded. Dude is a dbag

He may not have 'It" right now, but if you look at the top passers in the league, it was said about basically every single one of them. Super weird time to be a football fan in general right now. We were so used to having these super established QBs and they were always jockeying for position for such a long time. I think guys like Brady, Ben, Rodgers, Brees, and Manning did more incredible things than anyone in the league today outside of Mahomes. I don't find guys like Lamar Jackson special. He has talent, but he doesn't worry me. Geno Smith doesn't worry me. Sam Darnold, Mayfield, Cousins...not worried. The day of the field general seems to be over right now and, to me, that's why I watched football. Anyway, sorry for the rant.

I think Fields needs to find himself, and like I said before, he is in the absolute perfect situation here. He seems very open to being around Russ, maybe even enjoys not having all of the pressure. He went out, he performed, so he should have confidence in what he did. Now he can build on that. I think how Russ plays the game is EXACTLY how Tomlin wants the game played. Fields is seeing it executed exactly how the coach wants right now. I love the idea of Fields because of his ability to run, but he showed he can selectively use it. He needs to find a groove passing sooner, and if he can carve teams up like that, his legs will be demoralizing for defenses.

 

[OnMyOwn]

I think fields made some excellent throws this year. Especially while rolling out like Russ. I actually think they’re similar, but Russ is more headsy and can throw a nicer ball.

 

[JTG]

He beat my expectations, so for that, I'm on board with him for now.

 

[xlm34]

He may not have 'It" right now, but if you look at the top passers in the league, it was said about basically every single one of them. Super weird time to be a football fan in general right now. We were so used to having these super established QBs and they were always jockeying for position for such a long time. I think guys like Brady, Ben, Rodgers, Brees, and Manning did more incredible things than anyone in the league today outside of Mahomes. I don't find guys like Lamar Jackson special. He has talent, but he doesn't worry me. Geno Smith doesn't worry me. Sam Darnold, Mayfield, Cousins...not worried. The day of the field general seems to be over right now and, to me, that's why I watched football. Anyway, sorry for the rant.

I think Fields needs to find himself, and like I said before, he is in the absolute perfect situation here. He seems very open to being around Russ, maybe even enjoys not having all of the pressure. He went out, he performed, so he should have confidence in what he did. Now he can build on that. I think how Russ plays the game is EXACTLY how Tomlin wants the game played. Fields is seeing it executed exactly how the coach wants right now. I love the idea of Fields because of his ability to run, but he showed he can selectively use it. He needs to find a groove passing sooner, and if he can carve teams up like that, his legs will be demoralizing for defenses.

I think if Fields takes anything from Wilson this year it’s:

1.) Not every throw needs to be a laser.

2.) Sometimes you just need to give your guys a chance. I don’t necessarily think Wilson is making these crazy anticipatory throws but he’s electing to throw in situations that Fields was turning down for whatever reason.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

He may not have 'It" right now, but if you look at the top passers in the league, it was said about basically every single one of them. Super weird time to be a football fan in general right now. We were so used to having these super established QBs and they were always jockeying for position for such a long time. I think guys like Brady, Ben, Rodgers, Brees, and Manning did more incredible things than anyone in the league today outside of Mahomes. I don't find guys like Lamar Jackson special. He has talent, but he doesn't worry me. Geno Smith doesn't worry me. Sam Darnold, Mayfield, Cousins...not worried. The day of the field general seems to be over right now and, to me, that's why I watched football. Anyway, sorry for the rant.

I think Fields needs to find himself, and like I said before, he is in the absolute perfect situation here. He seems very open to being around Russ, maybe even enjoys not having all of the pressure. He went out, he performed, so he should have confidence in what he did. Now he can build on that. I think how Russ plays the game is EXACTLY how Tomlin wants the game played. Fields is seeing it executed exactly how the coach wants right now. I love the idea of Fields because of his ability to run, but he showed he can selectively use it. He needs to find a groove passing sooner, and if he can carve teams up like that, his legs will be demoralizing for defenses.

Who would you say are the top passers?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

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We can argue that HCMT should have known better but that's an awful lot of semantics from the league official. I get that the play is not a score (although I think Russ has a point, maybe it should be), but that the league has some bullshit inconsistencies in how its rules are drawn up and enforced is not in question.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

We can argue that HCMT should have known better but that's an awful lot of semantics from the league official. I get that the play is not a score (although I think Russ has a point, maybe it should be), but that the league has some bullshit inconsistencies in how its rules are drawn up and enforced is not in question.

Can't disagree with you.

Slightly off topic, the catch last night was ruled complete.
Per the league:
Initially ruled incomplete because Wilson got only one foot down, the Jets won a replay challenge after officials ruled that his left shin landed inbounds in the back of the end zone. Based on the rules, one shin equals two feet.
In my 40 some years of watching football, I have never heard of "shin" being a relevant body part for completing a catch.

John Madden had his trope: 1 knee equals 2 feet

Again I have literally never heard of shin being an important qualifier of a catch. Methinks the NFL wanted the Jets to win and put their thumb on the scale with this review

 

[JTG]

I think if Fields takes anything from Wilson this year it’s:

1.) Not every throw needs to be a laser.

2.) Sometimes you just need to give your guys a chance. I don’t necessarily think Wilson is making these crazy anticipatory throws but he’s electing to throw in situations that Fields was turning down for whatever reason.

Agreed. I even forgot what it looked like from not watching Ben for so long, but sometimes the QB just needs to let it rip out there instead of trying to perfectly toss it in the bread basket. Give your guy a chance. It seems that the younger guys coming through now want it all to be perfect, and often don't take the "good enough" option. Russ puts f***in AIR under those balls and you can see what happens when you give Pickens time and space like that.

Who would you say are the top passers?

Talent wise? Mahomes, Allen, Jackson. But if you look at the top of the stats right now, it's a who's-who of bust QBs.

 

[Peat]

He may not have 'It" right now, but if you look at the top passers in the league, it was said about basically every single one of them. Super weird time to be a football fan in general right now. We were so used to having these super established QBs and they were always jockeying for position for such a long time. I think guys like Brady, Ben, Rodgers, Brees, and Manning did more incredible things than anyone in the league today outside of Mahomes. I don't find guys like Lamar Jackson special. He has talent, but he doesn't worry me. Geno Smith doesn't worry me. Sam Darnold, Mayfield, Cousins...not worried. The day of the field general seems to be over right now and, to me, that's why I watched football. Anyway, sorry for the rant.

I think Fields needs to find himself, and like I said before, he is in the absolute perfect situation here. He seems very open to being around Russ, maybe even enjoys not having all of the pressure. He went out, he performed, so he should have confidence in what he did. Now he can build on that. I think how Russ plays the game is EXACTLY how Tomlin wants the game played. Fields is seeing it executed exactly how the coach wants right now. I love the idea of Fields because of his ability to run, but he showed he can selectively use it. He needs to find a groove passing sooner, and if he can carve teams up like that, his legs will be demoralizing for defenses.

I only got into the NFL at the tail end of that era but it definitely feels weird. Stafford and maybe Wilson are the only two QBs over the age of 30 worth caring about. There's very few guys in what feels like their prime of still being great athletes but now truly understanding what they're doing. Only two-three good pocket QBs in the draft in about five years, and one of them nobody expected. I've gotta say, as a non-American, it is f***ing *wild* to me how little control the NFL has over its player pipeline and how little it seems to care. Throw in the ridiculous difference in OL and DL pipelines right now and who knows where the game is heading.

Which might be good for Fields. Who knows.

What I do feel strongly about though is that a lot of rookie QBs are the rider and not the wave, and that Wilson potentially offers a massive opportunity to build a huge wave for whoever the next QB is. I take this to the point of being willing to trade this year's 1st for a 2026 1st with the full intent on being able to trade a long way up that year.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Can't disagree with you.

Slightly off topic, the catch last night was ruled complete.
Per the league:
Initially ruled incomplete because Wilson got only one foot down, the Jets won a replay challenge after officials ruled that his left shin landed inbounds in the back of the end zone. Based on the rules, one shin equals two feet.
In my 40 some years of watching football, I have never heard of "shin" being a relevant body part for completing a catch.

John Madden had his trope: 1 knee equals 2 feet

Again I have literally never heard of shin being an important qualifier of a catch. Methinks the NFL wanted the Jets to win and put their thumb on the scale with this review

Re: the Garrett Wilson TD last night - that distinction is arbitrary vs the "one foot twice" thing. In fact, I think Pickens getting "both" feet down was more intentional than Wilson making sure to get his shin down. (Also, I'm not 100% sure myself that his shin was down before his knee but whatever.) I don't agree that the fix was in, but bad rules lead to situations where that can be the perception. And the NFL has a lot of them.