BondraTime
Registered User
From 2016-2019 (4 drafts) Ottawa has traded:
2 of our own 1sts
3 of our own 2nds
4 of our own 3rds
The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III
- Thread starter DrunkUncleDenis
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2 of our own 1sts
3 of our own 2nds
4 of our own 3rds
BondraTime
Registered User
BatherSeason
Registered User
BondraTime
Registered User
2nd - Formenton - Lazar
2nd - Tychonik - Brassard/Trade Down
1st - JBD - Brassard/Trade Down
3rd - Pit 2019 3rd - Brassard
BatherSeason
Registered User
That makes more sense than mine, either way, you are correct, a "budget team" should not be handing out draft picks like candy.
JungleBeat
Registered User
It’s funny how Dorion thought he was going all in by acquiring Oduya and Thompson last season after losing Methot and MacArthur.
And what’s the plan going forward? Does he really think we’re going to be a playoff team, crazier things have happened. But this offseason is a bust since he said big changes were coming.
And what’s the plan going forward? Does he really think we’re going to be a playoff team, crazier things have happened. But this offseason is a bust since he said big changes were coming.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Seems like a lot based on this :
2016 : no 3rd, no 7th
2017 : no 3rd, no 5th, no 7th
2018 : no 3rd BUT extra 1st and extra 7th
2019 : no 1st, but extra 7th (yay!)
Overall, so far in those 4 drafts, we lost three 3rds and a 5th... so really not as dramatic as you made it seem. But yeah, picks were shuffled around
BondraTime
Registered User
It certainly is as dramatic as I'm making it seem. Trading away guys we take with those picks a few months after drafting them is the same thing as trading the picks.
Traded 2016 2nd 42nd overall (Dahlen)
Traded 2017 2nd 59th overall (Leafs took Rasanen as part of Phaneuf trade) Received CGY's 2nd for Lazar
Traded 2017 1st 28th overall (Bowers)
Traded 2018 2nd 33rd overall (Wings took Beggren as part of Zibanejad trade) Received Pitts 1st for Brassard (JBD & Tychonik)
In 2019 we are missing our 1st in a year that is likely going down the toilet. Don't have our own 3rd.
Saying we lost 3 3rd's and a 5th isn't accurate whatsoever, considering we no longer have guys taken with a 1st and 2nd, and 2 more guys that were taken with our own 2nd round picks. I'm not even taking into account that you're equating Pittsburgh's 1st with our 2019 1st
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BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
In a bubble, a move or two like these would be fine. As an overall strategy to try to compete financially, we're clearly bleeding assets at an unsustainable rate.
BonHoonLayneCornell
Registered User
Do other teams have nothing on their books after two years other than 3 contracts they wish would go away? This seems like a very strange contract situation to be in.
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
I didn't read the posts prior so of course if you're including prospects and list them as draft picks, it changes everything.
Based on picks made through all rounds in the last 3 years plus the 2019 draft (as of now), yes the only rounds we ended up not drafting is three times in the 3rd round and once in the 5th round. It's as accurate as 2+2=4
I also said many picks were shuffled around (due to many moves), so I was not talking about the difference in value between our original picks and the ones we ended up with...
In reality, if you really want to be accurate, it's much more complicated than the way you presented it, or even the way I did.
2016 :
1st (12th OA) : traded with a 3rd (80th OA from NYI) to move up in the draft and get a higher 1st (11th OA)
2nd (42th OA) : pick kept (Dahlen), was later traded
3rd (73th OA) : Traded to (partly) acquire a 2nd (36th OA) in 2015 (Gagne)
3rd (80th OA) from New York Islanders : acquired in the Shane Prince deal, then traded to move up (see above)
4th (103th OA) : pick kept
5th (133th OA) : pick kept
6th (163th OA) : pick kept
7th (193th OA) : pick traded with Shane Prince
Summary
They lost : 12th OA + 42nd OA (Dahlen) + 73th OA + 193th OA + 42nd OA in 2015* + Prince
They gained : 11th OA (Brown) + Burrows + 36th OA in 2015 (Gagné)
* Dallas 2nd round pick in 2015 (42nd OA) was previously acquired in the Spezza trade. It was used to move up and select Gagné in 2015
My Opinion
Ouch Dorion, that's a lot to pay to move up in the draft to get Brown and Gagne. And of course, that disastrous price to acquire Burrows. He has to hope that Prince stays insignificant and that Dahlen doesn't succeed much at the NHL level. And also that Gagne becomes a decent NHL player at least. But if Brown booms, then it changes the perception of this whole equation.
2017 :
1st (28th OA) : pick kept (Bowers), was later traded
2nd (47th OA) from Calgary : acquired in the Curtis Lazar deal
2nd (59th OA) : traded to Toronto to acquire Dion Phaneuf
3rd (90th OA) : traded to Carolina to acquire Viktor Stalberg
4th (121st OA) : pick kept
5th (152th OA) : traded to Pittsburgh to acquire Mike Condon
6th (183th OA) : pick kept
7th (214th OA) : traded to San Jose to acquire Tommy Wingels
Summary
They lost : 28th OA (Bowers) + 59th OA + 90th OA + 152th OA+ 214th OA + Lazar + Turris
They gained : Duchene (partly) + 47th OA (Formenton), Phaneuf, Stalberg, Condon and Wingels
My Opinion
If Duchene is extended long term, I believe this whole equation could end up as a positive as he is a significantly better player than Turris IMO (who shouldn't have been extended at something like ~6.5 x 7 years IMO). Many picks were traded but at least they acquired players that helped the Sens have a very successful year and a deep playoffs run. The Lazar for 2nd was one of the best Dorion moves and gave the opportunity to draft a great prospect that could become a key player for the Sens (Formenton)
2018 :
1st (4th OA) : pick kept
1st (22nd OA) from Pittsburgh : acquired in the Derick Brassard deal, then traded for 2 picks (see below)
1st (26th OA) from New York Rangers : acquired by moving down in the draft
2nd (33rd OA) : traded to New York Rangers to acquire Derick Brassard
2nd (48th OA) from New York Rangers : acquired by moving down in the draft
3rd (64th OA) : pick traded with Derick Brassard
4th (95th OA) : pick kept
5th (126th OA) : pick kept
6th (157th OA) : pick kept
7th (188th OA) : pick kept
7th (194th OA) from New York Rangers : acquired in the Zibanejad deal
Summary
They lost : 33rd OA + 64th OA + Brassard + Zibanejad
They gained : 26th OA + 48th OA + 194th OA + Gustavsson + Brassard (139 Games + 19 in the Playoffs) + 3rd in 2019 + 3rd in 2020
My Opinion
All of this could end up being very positive in the end... Basically, it could end up being Zibanejad + a 2nd + a 3rd for Bernard-Docker, Gustavsson, Tychonick, two 3rds and a 7th... plus Brassard contributions with the Sens. I really was a big Zibanejad fan but Dorion could potentially have hit an homerun there. His Brassard trade to Pittsburgh combined with the move down in the draft is IMO Dorion best move by faaaaaaaaaar.
2019 (as of today) :
1st (? OA) : traded to Colorado to acquire Matt Duchene
2nd (? OA) : pick kept
3rd (? OA) : traded to Colorado to acquire Matt Duchene
3rd (? OA) from Pittsburgh : acquired in the Brassard deal
4th (? OA) : pick kept
5th (? OA) : pick kept
6th (? OA) : pick kept
7th (? OA) : pick kept
7th (? OA) from Calgary : acquired in the Nick Shore deal
Summary
They lost : 1st + 3rd + Shore
They gained : Duchene (partly) + 7th (+ a 3rd but I already listed it in 2018)
My Opinion
I can easily live with Duchene for Turris, Bowers and a 3rd but that additional 1st could really hurt depending where it ends up. If it was ending up over 20th OA, then I wouldn't even care but looking at the roster improvements made this summer (i.e. absolutely nothing), it looks extremely unlikely. At best, we can hope that it finishes outside of the top-10
So yes, after analyzing all this, it was pretty much sensationalism drama the way you presented it. Way too simplistic and doesn't give you an accurate portrait of reality. Yes Dorion paid some really huge prices (Burrows and Duchene) but also made two very good moves to (partially?) offset it off (Lazar and Brassard+draft move down). In the ends, it really remains to be seen with all of this.
EDIT : So in the end, even if you want to remain simplistic, it's pretty much what I said + the 2 prospects we traded (Bowers + Dahlen) : 1st + 2nd + 3 x 3rds + 5th (with a possible significant downgrade in the 1st next year)
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BondraTime
Registered User
I come to the complete opposite conclusion after analysing all the work you put in, thanks for that btw
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
No problem, but what is your conclusion then?
I mean, what I presented is 100% fact (outside of my opinions that were highlighted)
JungleBeat
Registered User
BondraTime
Registered User
I know, I completely disagree with your opinion and conclusion from looking at the facts.
Traded
Turris
Zibanejad
Ott 2016 2nd - Dahlen
Ott 2017 1st - Bowers
Lazar
Ott 2018 2nd
Ott 2017 2nd
Ott 2019 1st
Ott 2019 3rd
Ott 2018 3rd
Ott 2017 3rd
Ott 2016 3rd
Ott 2017 5th
Not going to count the other picks we traded from other teams
Recieved
Duchene
22nd overall 2018 (JBD & Tychonik)
47th overall 2017 (Formenton)
Gustavsson
Condon
Gaborik...
Brassard
Phaneuf
Wingles
Stalberg
Burrows
CLB 3rd 2019
CGY 7th 2019
Bolded are not with the team anymore. Seems very simple to me that we shipped out more than we returned, and are in a much worse spot for it currently.
Agent Zuuuub
Registered User
- Jan 2, 2015
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
That's your conclusion after reading all the details I provided? I will simplify for you.
God, I'm really not a Dorion fan but I'm scared I will have to defend him against undeserved criticism.
Let's not forget that Dorion is often forced to spend picks to save money (Melnyk directives)
Note : Gustavsson is a prospect but I listed him as a 2nd round pick (55th OA) to simplify, even if his value is probably a lot higher now.
OUT
Picks : 3 x 1st + 4 x 2nd + 4 x 3rd + 5th + 2 x 7th
(12th OA, 28th OA, 33rd OA, 42nd OA, 42nd OA, 59th OA, 64th OA, 73th OA, 90th OA, 152th OA, 193th OA, 214th OA, 1st in 2019, 3rd in 2019)
Players : Turris, Zibanejad, Prince, Lazar, Shore
IN
Picks : 2 x 1st + 4 x 2nd + 2 x 3rd + 2 x 7th
(11th OA, 26th OA, 36th OA, 47th OA, 48th OA, 55th OA, 194th OA, 3rd in 2019, 3rd in 2020, 7th in 2019)
Players : Duchene, Brassard, Phaneuf, Condon, Burrows, Stalberg and Wingels
Look at the picks spots IN and OUT, not much difference... except that 1st in 2019
Outside of that pick given to acquire Duchene, the net loss in picks is like two 3rds and a 5th... which were probably spent to save money somewhere, or for rentals like Stalberg and Wingels.
Let's simplify even more, in the end it was something like :
- Assuming Burrows value was Prince
- Assuming Stalberg value was a 3rd like it was paid
- Assuming Wingels value was Shore (both traded for a 7th)
- Assuming Condon value was a 5th like it was paid
Turris, Zibanejad, Lazar, 1st in 2019, a 3rd
for
Duchene, Brassard (2 years rental), Phaneuf (2 years rental)
Funny how it all comes down to the price paid for Duchene
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Sens of Anarchy
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- Jul 9, 2013
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I'll take Bad NHL GMs for a $1000 Alex
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Well, see my answer to JungleBeat, in that list, you don't have all the elements to look at the situation accurately
And the problem is you can't look at players that were rentals to medium short term players on your team and figure out that they represent zero value because they are not there anymore.
I have seen pretty much every NHL team give up assets like picks and prospects for pure rentals or even short term players. It's nothing new, it has worked like that for decades. Condon, Burrows, Stalberg, Wingels cost some picks (a 2nd, a 3rd, a 5th and a 7th)
Copy/paste the part below and erase equivalent picks and then players (see my previous post) and you will get to the same conclusions. It CAN'T BE more factual than this :
OUT
Picks : 3 x 1st + 4 x 2nd + 4 x 3rd + 5th + 2 x 7th
(12th OA, 28th OA, 33rd OA, 42nd OA, 42nd OA, 59th OA, 64th OA, 73th OA, 90th OA, 152th OA, 193th OA, 214th OA, 1st in 2019, 3rd in 2019)
Players : Turris, Zibanejad, Prince, Lazar, Shore
IN
Picks : 2 x 1st + 4 x 2nd + 2 x 3rd + 2 x 7th
(11th OA, 26th OA, 36th OA, 47th OA, 48th OA, 55th OA, 194th OA, 3rd in 2019, 3rd in 2020, 7th in 2019)
Players : Duchene, Brassard, Phaneuf, Condon, Burrows, Stalberg and Wingels
BondraTime
Registered User
I did, and it really doesn't change anything with my conclusion. Seems extremely simple to me, the above looks like someone trying to see something he wants.
Having both Brassard and what we got in return for trading away Brassard in the "In" column doesn't make much sense. The bolded guys in the "IN" column are not even with the team anymore, with the state of the team now it's clear keeping most of those trades from being made was he better option.
Looking at what we traded away, and what we currently have to show for it right now is all that matters moving forward.
Pitts 2018 22nd overall in the OUT column, that was traded away to get the 26th + 48th. We never got those picks from Pittsburgh
Then we have Hoffman out, 2020 5th is out, Bergman is in, Boedker is in, 2020 6th is in.
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Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
- Jun 26, 2007
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Is it not fair to say a great many of us lamented not going for it while Karlsson was a bargain?
I don't mean to justify every move we have made but I am glad we swung for the fences even if it didn't work.
BondraTime
Registered User
Swinging for the fences equals trading for Burrows, Stalberg, Wingels and Condon, and switching out Zibanejad for Brassard? Then trading you current #1 centre for a small upgrade, after not attempting to replace EK's D partner for the previous 4 years and #2 D? I don't see it as swinging for the fences, I see it as bad management.
That's like trying to get beaned with the bases juiced.
That run was fantastic, but it was as Cinderella as it get's, and is part of the reason the team is in this predicament.
A team that needs young ELC's as much as possible, and has been great at drafting, shouldn't be giving so many picks away at our pro scouting's (who have proven to be close to league worst for a decade) disposal.
No he didn’t. We lost Methot in expansion and Mac to injury. Hardly Dorion’s fault. Thompson was not Mac’s replacement. He’s a fourth line centre. Criticize him for not acquiring a better top four guy, sure, but what was out there?
Sens of Anarchy
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