The Official Pierre "high five" Dorion Thread | Part III

[BatherSeason]

Nobody should care what the backup or the 4th line rw makes

When the backup goalie and depth forwards eat at your "internal budget" and prevent you from resigning key skilled players, everyone should care.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Yep these same expensive depth players earned their contracts,so if we just toss them away for picks how is this any different that we are doing with the top end of the scale??Guess we go back to the Lazar Neil and Kelley line.....Hey it sucked ass but its cheap??

Come on dude ,the budget has made this team exactly what it has been for almost a decade now...Nobody should care what the backup or the 4th line rw makes...Which is the exact issue

Alex Burrows certainly did not earn an extension from us. Everyone in Vancouver thought he was retiring ffs.

If the compromise is we have a shitty 4th line to save money for our actual important players, that's an easy decision. Don't lose Karlsson or Stone because you gotta pay Smith 3.25M to play on the 4th line. That's just silly.

Dorion couldn't have played the hand he was dealt worse. To get cheap production, you look to youth. He instead started selling off our youth and picks to invest in older, more expensive depth players who had little chance of providing us with solid returns.

He doubled down on that by hiring Boucher who he knew wasn't going to give our prospects a fair shake. Basically he undermined the only way to stay competitive on a budget at every turn. Also, greatly neglected our farm system to develop said youth. He only has himself to blame for this mess.

Eugene may dealt him a 7-2 off suit hand. But Dorion kept calling and raising.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

- The drafting that has been done since Pierre has been with the organization has been stellar

Our drafting prowess is seriously overrated, especially in recent years.

Lazar in 2013.
Colin White hasn't performed like we expected this year, but he might improve.
Bowers over Tolvanen was a joke.
And people will say it is way too early to declare this, but Zadina will be a much better player than Tkachuk.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Our drafting prowess is seriously overrated, especially in recent years.

Lazar in 2013.
Colin White hasn't performed like we expected this year, but he might improve.
Bowers over Tolvanen was a joke.
And people will say it is way too early to declare this, but Zadina will be a much better player than Tkachuk.

Yeah, our drafting has improved massively under Mann. I don't think with hindsight Dorion did a good job in that department previously. Most of the good picks were either Lowes or Forsberg's back then.

From what I understand as well, Tkachuk wasn't Mann's pick either. Dorion and Eugene should have differed to him. They'll pay dearly for it.

 

[slamigo]

When the backup goalie and depth forwards eat at your "internal budget" and prevent you from resigning key skilled players, everyone should care.

2.5M this year and 3M next year for Mike Condon. Mike Condon.

But the team can't budge from 10M to match the Doughty contract? This is why people are critical right now.

 

[BigRig4]

Yeah, our drafting has improved massively under Mann. I don't think with hindsight Dorion did a good job in that department previously. Most of the good picks were either Lowes or Forsberg's back then.

From what I understand as well, Tkachuk wasn't Mann's pick either. Dorion and Eugene should have differed to him. They'll pay dearly for it.

Who was Mann's pick?

 

[topshelf15]

Alex Burrows certainly did not earn an extension from us. Everyone in Vancouver thought he was retiring ffs.

If the compromise is we have a ****ty 4th line to save money for our actual important players, that's an easy decision. Don't lose Karlsson or Stone because you gotta pay Smith 3.25M to play on the 4th line. That's just silly.

Dorion couldn't have played the hand he was dealt worse. To get cheap production, you look to youth. He instead started selling off our youth and picks to invest in older, more expensive depth players who had little chance of providing us with solid returns.

He doubled down on that by hiring Boucher who he knew wasn't going to give our prospects a fair shake. Basically he undermined the only way to stay competitive on a budget at every turn. Also, greatly neglected our farm system to develop said youth. He only has himself to blame for this mess.

Eugene may dealt him a 7-2 off suit hand. But Dorion kept calling and raising.

Meh easy to say we could have would have done something different,we dont get into this mess to begin with if EM isnt running the team and leaving 10 to 12 mil on the table every year..Or maybe we could hire someone that can actually help the team run a proper system if EM didnt feel the need to cheap out there as well....

Point you seem to missing is that we are what we have been which is a bubble team,that rebuilds itself into another bubble team....There is no way you can be anything more than this without the money

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Who was Mann's pick?

From what I've heard, he had Zadina and Dobson ahead of Tkachuk.

 

[topshelf15]

2.5M this year and 3M next year for Mike Condon. Mike Condon.

But the team can't budge from 10M to match the Doughty contract? This is why people are critical right now.

Meh ,it all boils down to the exact same thing in the end...The next gm will make a mistake on resigning a player,and we will have to live with it because we have no other alternative

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Meh easy to say we could have would have done something different,we dont get into this mess to begin with if EM isnt running the team and leaving 10 to 12 mil on the table every year..Or maybe we could hire someone that can actually help the team run a proper system if EM didnt feel the need to cheap out there as well....

Point you seem to missing is that we are what we have been which is a bubble team,that rebuilds itself into another bubble team....There is no way you can be anything more than this without the money

I'm not trying to say that having a shoestring budget doesn't affect us, but we see teams like Nashville and Anaheim routinely icing competitive rosters while under budget constraints. It can be done if you're not as reckless as we've been with our dollars and assets. Those teams lock up their star talents and still surround them with a good supporting cast.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Meh,any and every team has these types of things that go on...Our issue is that with an owner like EM that wants to win on a near impossible budget for everything it gets magnified by 100

I don't see Ottawa being in a "win now" mode, and PD has said as much.

Therefore I do not expect PD to spend up to or even near the Cap, until such time the re-build (3-5 years?) they're in a real position to go deep into he playoffs.

Now the Current CBA is set to expire in 2022, and if the NHL really wants parity, they'll have to do something about the teams that can bury players in the AHL, or hide them on LTIR and eliminate signing bonuses.

If any of these issues are dealt with, to allow small market teams, like Ottawa, to compete on a leveled playing field, then that is when EM must put his money where his mouth is ......... but that a number of years from now, and a lot of issues to resolve.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Our drafting prowess is seriously overrated, especially in recent years.

Lazar in 2013.
Colin White hasn't performed like we expected this year, but he might improve.
Bowers over Tolvanen was a joke.
And people will say it is way too early to declare this, but Zadina will be a much better player than Tkachuk.

All of these picks are of the same variety: forwards with intangibles that play mature two-way games, but aren't as skilled as other forwards still on the board.

Could add Cowen and Englund to that list as well. They clearly weren't picked as high as they were because of their hockey IQ and skill, rather it was their defensive game and intangibles.

The only mature two-way guy with intangibles that we selected high that actually exceeded expectations was Silverberg, and I think that was because, unlike the other guys listed, he possessed a high-end skill - an elite release.

This is not to say that selecting these types of players never works out (Horvat, Larkin, O'Reilly, Landeskog are examples of this), but overall passing on smarter, more skilled players tends to result in disappointment more often than not.

 

[Hale The Villain]

From what I've heard, he had Zadina and Dobson ahead of Tkachuk.

Not surprising.

Tkachuk seems like he was Dorion's guy based on everything I've seen and heard since the draft.

Wish he had deferred to his head scout and stayed within his lane. I hope I'm wrong, but Tkachuk was not a smart pick at 4th OVR.

 

[topshelf15]

I'm not trying to say that having a shoestring budget doesn't affect us, but we see teams like Nashville and Anaheim routinely icing competitive rosters while under budget constraints. It can be done if you're not as reckless as we've been with our dollars and assets. Those teams lock up their star talents and still surround them with a good supporting cast.

Yep and they have also offered up huge deals to everyone from 1st to 4th liners...Look I get what you are saying,but we need much more flexibilty to do better things...We are always at a disadvantage in trading,resigning or in just general team building ,team screw us because they can because of the budget and this nonsensical money in for money out rule

 

[branch]

I don't see Ottawa being in a "win now" mode, and PD has said as much.

Therefore I do not expect PD to spend up to or even near the Cap, until such time the re-build (3-5 years?) they're in a real position to go deep into he playoffs.

Now the Current CBA is set to expire in 2022, and if the NHL really wants parity, they'll have to do something about the teams that can bury players in the AHL, or hide them on LTIR and eliminate signing bonuses.

If any of these issues are dealt with, to allow small market teams, like Ottawa, to compete on a leveled playing field, then that is when EM must put his money where his mouth is ......... but that a number of years from now, and a lot of issues to resolve.

Why didn't he do that after the ECF run? I guess Eugene didn't sign off on it?

 

[topshelf15]

Why didn't he do that after the ECF run? I guess Eugene didn't sign off on it?

Cost certainty is a buzz word most owners like to use,how about having a 100 mil team budget??That way EM would already know what he has to spend,and where he needs to get too as far as a fair profit margin......

 

[JungleBeat]

Just going on record saying that Dorion will trade Karlsson for less than what the Duchene return was.

 

[Icelevel]

From what I've heard, he had Zadina and Dobson ahead of Tkachuk.

Yup that’s what he told me too. It was at the hf sens poster-scouting staff meeting.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

From what I've heard, he had Zadina and Dobson ahead of Tkachuk.

I seem to recall close to 90% of this board wanted Zadina if he was available. I would love to see some form of evidence on Mann's opinion of these 3. Any of the 3 I would have been fine with. I think Tkachuk will be a good top 6 winger.. possibly top line winger .. I think Dobson would have been a really good choice as well. Still not convinced on Zadina .. although he has really nice hands and is very shifty.. In the right situation I am sure he will succeed and I think he will thrive on the PP. Zadina and Tkachuk are two completely different players. I heard Mann was ecstatic that Tkachuk fell to them because they thought Montreal would take him and almost did.

 

[Viletho]

I seem to recall close to 90% of this board wanted Zadina if he was available. I would love to see some form of evidence on Mann's opinion of these 3. Any of the 3 I would have been fine with. I think Tkachuk will be a good top 6 winger.. possibly top line winger .. I think Dobson would have been a really good choice as well. Still not convinced on Zadina .. although he has really nice hands and is very shifty.. In the right situation I am sure he will succeed and I think he will thrive on the PP. Zadina and Tkachuk are two completely different players. I heard Mann was ecstatic that Tkachuk fell to them because they thought Montreal would take him and almost did.

During the dev. Camp 5v5 scrimmage. Mann explained why they took Tkachuk instead of Zadina.

In my word, what he said : Tkachuk and Zadina are very close in skill, but the other elements that Tkachuk have is very rare for a player skilled like him.
So they decide to take him. He said that it was difficult to find that type of player and now they have it.

I'm paraphrasing, but it was the essence of it.

 

[Micklebot]

People seem to feel Dorion has historically been for grit and character but he was our chief amature scout from 2007 to 2009 when we drafted Karlsson Silfverburg wiercioch Hoffman, ect. He then became director of player dev and we took guys like Stone Zibanejad

When did he become known exclusively for the Lazar and Tkachuks of the world?

 

[BatherSeason]

Therefore I do not expect PD to spend up to or even near the Cap

Thanks Captain Obvious! Do you actually believe this to be true??

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Thanks Captain Obvious! Do you actually believe this to be true??

context, my friend, context

 

[slamigo]

I'm still holding out a bit of hope that PD is going to pull something out of his hat that will shut me up. I'd love to eat my words about not having faith in him. I really would.

 

[BondraTime]

People seem to feel Dorion has historically been for grit and character but he was our chief amature scout from 2007 to 2009 when we drafted Karlsson Silfverburg wiercioch Hoffman, ect. He then became director of player dev took guys like Stone Zibanejad

When did he become known exclusively for the Lazar and Tkachuks of the world?

That's not the only kind he drafts, but it will be what is brought up mostly because our big busts that are widely known and brought up (Cowen/Lazar) fit that type of guy.

Then guys like Englund, White, Bowers, Formenton, and to a lesser extent Tkachuk that are similar in the fact that they passed on guys who had much higher potential. All these guys (Englund not so much) should be certain to have 3rd line careers at a minimum, though not a high ceiling.

This team always bunts rather than going for a big time player, since 2010 the only star we have drafted is Stone, and soon to be Chabot, then we have drafted a ton of quality guys, who will never push a team over any kind of hump.

The Tkachuk pick really sinks in for me on what he values above other aspects, and not in a good way.

Obviously it's my opinion and doesn't mean a row of beans, but that's how I see it