HF Habs: The official 2023-2024 tank thread

[Boss Man Hughes]

Well I don’t think he should have been in the NHL, that much is true. I don’t think we’ve done him many favours since drafting him. Including his deployment last season. 1OA pick playing 10-13 mins a night. Barely any PP minutes, absolutely ridiculous considering the roster we have and who was getting minutes ahead of him.

Not much different than feeding DD top line minutes with Pacioretty while Chucky gets bounced around. Just foolish.

1st overall picks start in the NHL unless they go back to college.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

1st overall picks start in the NHL unless they go back to college.

Yeah, worked wonders, didn’t it?

 

[montreal]

1st overall picks start in the NHL unless they go back to college.

that's a short sighted way to look at it. Byfield, Nemec as 2nd OA's went directly to the AHL, it's not like picking 1 spot higher should change an organization's approach to development, especially when said new management team in their first attempt do the exact thing that the previous GM just got fired for despite talking repeatedly about the importance of development.

We'll see what happens, but so far it's certainly concerning with Slaf's production and he may not be very bright or that skilled, it's hard to say though since he's only played 70 games in the last 2 years between Liiga/NHL. If he had of started in the AHL and stayed there I think fans would be looking at him a little differently though with prospects it's often a long process with lots of ups and downs. Overall the question will be how much can he progress or not.

 

[DAChampion]

Byfield, Nemec as 2nd OA's went directly to the AHL, it's not like picking 1 spot higher should change an organization's approach to development,

Quoted for truth.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

Caufield isn't one dimensional and yes if he can score 50 goals regularly then he would be a star player at the same level of others you listed. Suzuki has a decent chance of getting there too, and getting Newhook can be seen as a way of helping. If they think he's about to breakout into a legit top-6 player then that gives Suzuki a much better chance at going ppg+ because too many games over the last few years he spent with the likes of Ylonen, Pitlick, Hoffman, Gurianov, Armia, arguably even Anderson likely doesn't help Suzuki's consistency. Swap Point and Suzuki to start their careers and I'm pretty sure Suzuki would be the guy with 90 point seasons and Point would be the one without a ppg season.

It took Point 5 years, and Kucherov 6 years to be ppg players following their drafts. So seems odd to be writing off guys like Dach or Slafkovsky as not having star potential. Hell were Kucherov/Point really ahead of Roy/Farrell at the same age? Tampa didn't know those 2nd round picks would be star players for their rebuild, so why should we expect to know each and every star player for ours?

I'd also point out that nothing says we have to get all our stars in the same "tank". Colorado got Landeskog and MacKinnon made the playoffs, spent a few years as a bubble team, and then ended up in the basement again getting Makar and traded for what turned out to be a tank pick and got Byram. Tampa was similar in that they got Stamkos/Hedman in tank #1, got out of the basement and then several years later ended up with another tank year to get Drouin.

So even if the tank is officially over that doesn't mean we won't still get another top picks sometime in the next 5 years. We never used to go into a season with the idea of tanking, yet we still managed a top-5 pick every 5ish years.

I mean, sure. If you're willing to wait through multiple tanks, I suppose that's fine. I don't think Molson (or other fans on this board and amongst the casuals) share your patience.

I very much think Caufield is one-dimensional. If he's not scoring, I feel he's a liability in every other metric. He also needs to stay healthy at his size. I think Dach has the best chance to become a star, but there are lots of caveats and concerns. For one, his shot is not good. I know he's been working on it, but he has a lot of work to do. Moreover, and more concerning, he's had problems staying healthy, which continued this year.

When Montreal becomes more of contender (4more years, maybe 5), players like Stamkos (33), Hedman (32) and Kucherov (30) will be on the downswing of their careers, if not even retired by then. Who will Point, 31 or 32,by thence playing with?

It's unrealistic to expect that TB will draft another Stamkos, Hedman, or Kucherov, by then. Those players are few and far between. When Montreal starts truly competing, TB will be in a position like Boston finds itself today, with the cornerstones of their current offense either goner nearly gone and not producing like they did in their prime.

Toronto has a greater chance of remaining relevant with only Tavares gone by then, even though I don't believe that the character of their core will lead to a Stanley Cup.

Same with EDM that should still be milking McDavid and Draisaitl foray they are worth. Only Nugent-Hopkins should be on his way out by the time Montreal is truly competing, but,again, because of the top-heavy Cap structure in Edmonton, that team will likely lack the depth to win a Cup.

Colorado, IMO, will remain one of the biggest threats to win the Cup by the time Montreal aspires toddling as much, with only Johansen and Cogliano on their way out, or already gone at that point.

Younger teams like, BUF, if they continue building properly their talent pool and continue applying the same cap structure, will become the next powerhouses, but I think Montreal will be able to match up favourably -- if the current prospect pool tops out closet their ceilings in at least 50% of the cases.

That means Hutson or Reinbacher becoming an impact, top-pairing D, Mailloux or Engstrom becoming a solid 2nd pairing D, Roy or Newhook reaching their ceiling and other prospect not currently in the system topping out as middle-six forwards, or quality third and fourth liners; Beck, Heineman, RHP, etc.

Caufield - Suzuki - XXX
Slafkovsky - Dach - Roy/Newhook
RHP/Heineman - Beck - Newhook/Roy
Farrell - Kidney - Heineman

Missing ingredients, like a winger for the Suzuki line will either come from players like Roy exceeding expectations, a trade that weaponizes Cap space or the UFA market.

IMO, we will only know the true nature of the forces on hand in at least two, if not three, years.

I think Buffalo's top players/prospects are light years ahead of ours. A lot would have to go right for us to be able to compete with them, not to mention other teams in our division.

 

[Miller Time]

Yeah yeah, you understand the nuances and I don’t. It’s the same old shit from you.

What do you want the kid to say? I’m completely lost and hope to continue to get my bell rung every 3 games.

Two of the last 3 coaches we had were possibly 2 of the worst ever. MSL being better than them isn’t much of an accomplishment. So far, there’s been some young guys play well under him and their relationship appears to be strong. This can turn in a hurry though. Right now, there’s no expectation to win. We will see if those relationships remain tight when the pressure is on.

MSL’s approach with Slaf was terrible. If you don’t see that then you probably don’t understand the nuances.

Not surprised that the crying comes out... Same old indeed lol

Your take about Slaf & MSL is bad. Nuance isn't something everyone can grasp, your post highlights that.
Not much more to add.

Enjoy

 

[the valiant effort]

Taken from a video in the Pedneault tribute thread

Gotta be the best Habs forward group since 93, no?

 

[1909]

Well I don’t think he should have been in the NHL, that much is true. I don’t think we’ve done him many favours since drafting him. Including his deployment last season. 1OA pick playing 10-13 mins a night. Barely any PP minutes, absolutely ridiculous considering the roster we have and who was getting minutes ahead of him.

Not much different than feeding DD top line minutes with Pacioretty while Chucky gets bounced around. Just foolish.

Slaf was not deserving to play more minutes than that. Majority of rookie players (forwards) all over the league are not given lots of minutes anyway. Galchenyuk was not a center anyway.

 

[ReHabs]

Taken from a video in the Pedneault tribute thread

Gotta be the best Habs forward group since 93, no?

The Robert Lang // Alex Tanguay year, for me. Before it ended up in a train wreck.

 

[HuGort]

Two tanking seasons have produced Slafkovsky and Reinbacher.

Looks like the Habs are still looking for an elite gamebreaking talent!

Time to start "tankin' for Macklin" (Celebrini)?

Hughes never tore it down is why we have no star. I would have tore it down to bare bones. Way I see it, better 32th team in league than 27th.

By Trading guys like Anderson and Savard for first round picks. Probably few more vets also. Frees up 10 million in caproom plus bunch of extra first picks. Yes, they good players and you need vets. But could sign vets as UFAs. Guys like Dumba.

Yes, there is lottery, but even if miss Bedard can do no worse than Fantilli. Then Eiserman or Dickinson this coming draft. Instead we will be drafting 10th or so. A second liner or #3 defense man

 

[DAChampion]

Hughes never tore it down is why we have no star. I would have tore it down to bare bones. Way I see it, better 32th team in league than 27th.

By Trading guys like Anderson and Savard for first round picks. Probably few more vets also. Frees up 10 million in caproom plus bunch of extra first picks. Yes, they good players and you need vets. But could sign vets as UFAs. Guys like Dumba.

Yes, there is lottery, but even if miss Bedard can do no worse than Fantilli. Then Eiserman or Dickinson this coming draft. Instead we will be drafting 10th or so. A second liner or #3 defense man

So you would have drafted Fantilli last year?

Ok.

 

[salbutera]

Hughes never tore it down is why we have no star. I would have tore it down to bare bones. Way I see it, better 32th team in league than 27th.

By Trading guys like Anderson and Savard for first round picks. Probably few more vets also. Frees up 10 million in caproom plus bunch of extra first picks. Yes, they good players and you need vets. But could sign vets as UFAs. Guys like Dumba.

Yes, there is lottery, but even if miss Bedard can do no worse than Fantilli. Then Eiserman or Dickinson this coming draft. Instead we will be drafting 10th or so. A second liner or #3 defense man

Then you’d have been instantly fired (or not even hired) by ownership… if progression towards playoffs is not seen this season (I.e competing for a wildcard spot), HuGo will start feeling the heat from ownership

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Not surprised that the crying comes out... Same old indeed lol

Your take about Slaf & MSL is bad. Nuance isn't something everyone can grasp, your post highlights that.
Not much more to add.

Enjoy

Not surprised that the crying comes out... Same old indeed lol

Your take about Slaf & MSL is bad. Nuance isn't something everyone can grasp, your post highlights that.
Not much more to add.

Enjoy

Crying, it’s the same old empty statement from you. The nuances Lolol. please enlighten everyone old wise one.

 

[DAChampion]

Crying, it’s the same old empty statement from you. The nuances Lolol. please enlighten everyone old wise one.

MSL probably did mismanage Slaf, but unlike previous coaches he has the possibility of growing because yes he's more intelligent and has better character.

For example, MSL said that when he rewatched tapes of old games, which he could enjoy with more emotional distance, he noticed that Slaf stood out.

Therrien would have never done anything like that or said anything like that.

 

[Rapala]

The Robert Lang // Alex Tanguay year, for me. Before it ended up in a train wreck.

fn barbershop jersey. Loved that team.

 

[Scriptor]

I mean, sure. If you're willing to wait through multiple tanks, I suppose that's fine. I don't think Molson (or other fans on this board and amongst the casuals) share your patience.

I very much think Caufield is one-dimensional. If he's not scoring, I feel he's a liability in every other metric. He also needs to stay healthy at his size. I think Dach has the best chance to become a star, but there are lots of caveats and concerns. For one, his shot is not good. I know he's been working on it, but he has a lot of work to do. Moreover, and more concerning, he's had problems staying healthy, which continued this year.


I think Buffalo's top players/prospects are light years ahead of ours. A lot would have to go right for us to be able to compete with them, not to mention other teams in our division.

It is clear that your modus operandi is that everything/anything elsewhere is light years ahead of the Habs.

That, to me, is just a case of being to close to the forest to see it is a forest.

 

[ZUKI]

Yeah yeah, you understand the nuances and I don’t. It’s the same old shit from you.

What do you want the kid to say? I’m completely lost and hope to continue to get my bell rung every 3 games.

Two of the last 3 coaches we had were possibly 2 of the worst ever. MSL being better than them isn’t much of an accomplishment. So far, there’s been some young guys play well under him and their relationship appears to be strong. This can turn in a hurry though. Right now, there’s no expectation to win. We will see if those relationships remain tight when the pressure is on.

MSL’s approach with Slaf was terrible. If you don’t see that then you probably don’t understand the nuances.

yeah, sure ..."worst ever", "approach was TERRIBLE" , " you don't understand nuances "

That's funny . I am happy for you, you understand what nuance means

 

[DAChampion]

fn barbershop jersey. Loved that team.

The 2009 Habs had a better forward group than the 2008 Habs, but without Mark Street and without Markov for a lot of games they were less effective. I remember that team suddenly improved when Gainey acquired Matthieu Schneider, and Markov was more relaxed when he had a more competent linemate.

 

[Miller Time]

Crying, it’s the same old empty statement from you. The nuances Lolol. please enlighten everyone old wise one.

I'm sorry nuance is a concept too complex for you, and that I'm not wise enough to help you understand. Lots of great thinkers out there in the field of leadership who are far more capable. Happy to share some links via dm, maybe they can help make it more accessible to you.

Cheers

 

[DAChampion]

It is clear that your modus operandi is that everything/anything elsewhere is light years ahead of the Habs.

That, to me, is just a case of being to close to the forest to see it is a forest.

I think in his case as in many others he's just a negative person, and that causes a lack of insight.

No, the Habs rebuild is not complete. But that statement is so trivial as to be worthless. So is he statement that they will probably need more talent. The Habs have effectively at least four more chances to acquire elite talent:

- Habs 2024 pick.
- Calgary 2025/2026 pick.
- Trade a package involving one of the good young dmen.
- Any one of the twenty young forward prospects could overachieve.

Hughes is also setting up the team to be able to capitalize on free agency or offer sheets in the coming years.

Or we can just scream that all hope is lost.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

MSL probably did mismanage Slaf, but unlike previous coaches he has the possibility of growing because yes he's more intelligent and has better character.

For example, MSL said that when he rewatched tapes of old games, which he could enjoy with more emotional distance, he noticed that Slaf stood out.

Therrien would have never done anything like that or said anything like that.

I don’t disagree. I don’t have any doubt that MSL is better at building a young man’s confidence and helping him grow over Therrien. My post was a bit of hyperbole to simply say MSL, although better than these Dinosaurs still makes some of the same mistakes. He showed Therrien/Julien like tendencies with their deployment though, arguing otherwise is just lying.

I keep hearing about MSL this and MSL that when it comes to developing young guys and with our most important kid he laid an egg. I do think he’s an improvement over the last 3 coaches we had, it would be hard not to be. 2 out of the 3 are the worst I’ve seen in my lifetime as a Habs fan. Therrien was a bully with no human side to him at all, along with being extremely poor on the tactical side and Ducharme communicated even worse than him, I don’t know how these guys were ever employed at the NHL level. Being better than them isn’t much of an accomplishment. I like MSL, I was one of a few who liked the hire when it happened too, but to think we can bring up prospects well before they’re rdy just because MSL is f***ing ridiculous.

 

[Scriptor]

I think in his case as in many others he's just a negative person, and that causes a lack of insight.

No, the Habs rebuild is not complete. But that statement is so trivial as to be worthless. So is he statement that they will probably need more talent. The Habs have effectively at least four more chances to acquire elite talent:

- Habs 2024 pick.
- Calgary 2025/2026 pick.
- Trade a package involving one of the good young dmen.
- Any one of the twenty young forward prospects could overachieve.

Hughes is also setting up the team to be able to capitalize on free agency or offer sheets in the coming years.

If we look at BUF's Cap structure, they are set up much like Montreal going forward, especially once the 31-yr-old Skinner comes off the books in 4more years

Both Thompson and Cozens are signed for 7 more years at 7.1M or so. Tuch is signed for 3 more years at 4.75M.

Dahlin's upcoming contrat negotiations, with his current 6M deal due up at the end of the season, will be key for that Cap structure.

With 73 points in 78 games last season, after a 53-point season the year before, and a couple of 40-point seasons in his ELC, it's hard to imagine that dahlia would only get in the 7M range on his next contract.

I expect at least 9M long term, but, keeping to that amount would be great for BUF, as it keeps all of the better players at 9M or less, much like TB's Cap structure, but with the Cap going up in the upcoming years.

Basically, plenty of room for the much needed quality depth that helps you win the Cup.

******

I believe that Montreal will have a better overall D-Corps, and it's not inconceivable that one of Hutson or Mailloux (maybe both) will become offensive dynamos. Tack onto that two legitimate shut down Ds that can support the offense in Guhle and Reinbacher and we have four Ds that can eat up tons of minutes while putting up points and shutting down opponents.

Quality depth, beyond that, in Xhekaj, Harris, Barron and Engstrom should make the Habs' overall D-Corps of the future the envy of the NHL, IMO.

Some of these Ds, especially if they reach close to their ceilings, will get a big payday, but, by the time they come out of their ELCs, the Cap structure will have been setup front, IMO, leaving room to to add, like BUF, much needed quality depth that will enable Montreal to challenge for a Cup over many years.

The 7 years remaining on Suzuki's contract and the 8 years on Caufield's can only help build a strong team in a cap world going forward.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

yeah, sure ..."worst ever", "approach was TERRIBLE" , " you don't understand nuances "

That's funny . I am happy for you, you understand what nuance means

They were 2 of the worst ever coaches. This isn’t an exaggeration, it’s a fact. Neither one of them should have been near 20 year old kids who need mentoring. Therrien, single handedly set the org back a decade imo with how he treated players.

You can pretend there’s worse or whatever so that you can try to play gotcha with “nuance”, but it’s not working my friend.

 

[SlafySZN]

Then you’d have been instantly fired (or not even hired) by ownership… if progression towards playoffs is not seen this season (I.e competing for a wildcard spot), HuGo will start feeling the heat from ownership

No they won’t.

Molson said very clearly he knows it’s gonna take time.

 

[DAChampion]

I don’t disagree. I don’t have any doubt that MSL is better at building a young man’s confidence and helping him grow over Therrien. My post was a bit of hyperbole to simply say MSL, although better than these Dinosaurs still makes some of the same mistakes. He showed Therrien/Julien like tendencies with their deployment though, arguing otherwise is just lying.

I keep hearing about MSL this and MSL that when it comes to developing young guys and with our most important kid he laid an egg. I do think he’s an improvement over the last 3 coaches we had, it would be hard not to be. 2 out of the 3 are the worst I’ve seen in my lifetime as a Habs fan. Therrien was a bully with no human side to him at all, along with being extremely poor on the tactical side and Ducharme communicated even worse than him, I don’t know how these guys were ever employed at the NHL level. Being better than them isn’t much of an accomplishment. I like MSL, I was one of a few who liked the hire when it happened too, but to think we can bring up prospects well before they’re rdy just because MSL is f***ing ridiculous.

"MSL is God" is just distillation and repetition. That's what many posters provide but ok it can be helpful to sometimes repear specifics.

The most common mentioned point is that he stopped burying Cauldield on the 4th line.

Then I just mentioned his self awareness in the Slaf example above.

I'll also point out that he was creative enough to place Dach on Suzuki's wing for a while. That got everybody going.

At the end of the season Farrell showed up out of nowhere, and within (5?) games he noticed him enough to bump him up to the 2nd line.

I also think if Therrien was coach that Wideman would have spent the entire season on the 2nd pairing. Instead we saw guys like Barron get playtime.