Speculation: The Off-Season Thread Part VI - Are we there yet? (Grabovski to Caps, 1 yr)

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Just because the league (and Bettman) have made this an issue all about money doesn't mean he's right. It is about money, it just shouldn't be.

For the Olympics it's all about the money too. They just don't want people to think so but that's the real reason why they finally let the professionals in. And for years they bent over backwards to accommodate the Soviet Union and its satellite states--letting them bring their best athletes (a good many of the Soviet players like Fetisov, Kasatonov, Larionov, Tretiak, Kharlamov all played for CSKA a Moscow based team tied to the Russian Army--so they were soldiers! first and foremost? who only played hockey as a sideline?) while at the same time claiming that the best players from North America weren't eligible because they played just for the $. Despite all that the United States still pulled off two very stunning upsets. The thing is the NHL wasn't good enough for them for a long, long time stretching into decades and doesn't owe the IOC anything at all--even if the IOC is now in the business of selling its product like any other business/corporation.
 
I don't imagine Adam Henrique's $24 million over six years bodes well for signing Stepan to a reasonable figure. Was Henrique arbitration eligible this year or did he just opt out of the process? Same age. Same #seasons in the league (sorta). Then again, I suppose I'm missing the point where Henrique is locked up for six years so they are buying into his UFA years. Hmmm... maybe not so bad after all!
 
I don't imagine Adam Henrique's $24 million over six years bodes well for signing Stepan to a reasonable figure. Was Henrique arbitration eligible this year or did he just opt out of the process? Same age. Same #seasons in the league (sorta). Then again, I suppose I'm missing the point where Henrique is locked up for six years so they are buying into his UFA years. Hmmm... maybe not so bad after all!

Keep in mind that the Devils are in a totally different franchise situation than NYR; We're one of the youngest teams in the league, their average age is like 40. They needed to lock him up. Looks like a good deal for both.
 
I actually met Cally this summer and spoke with him for a little while... he said the sentiment in the room had changed. Guys were really uptight, on edge, scared to make mistakes and that they were all looking forward to "playing" hockey again.

Sounds beautiful.

They could've joined a league at Chelsea Piers for that.
 
Didn't you go on a tirade about taking everything he says with a grain of salt?

No. You should look up the definition of a tirade.

Aren't you the guy the said its getting too contentious around here in the offseason? Wait until the season starts.
 
The crusade to globalize the NHL would also, invariably, be about money as well.

You want to treat this as some sort of civic duty, like paying taxes, or jury duty. It just isnt.

I understand there are money making aspects about this whole thing. I also understand that the IOC makes a bunch of money from it too. The NHL doesn't need globalization, as far as I'm concerned, because in 50 years, the KHL is going to serve the same purpose (provided they survive, but I think they will).

It really is a civic type of thing. Whether they choose to admit it or not, or whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the members of the ownership group in the NHL are stewards of the game. In other words, they have an ultimate responsibility to the game itself. But then again, I probably don't agree with most people here on what the main purpose of any business should be, so maybe we should just drop this whole conversation. :laugh:
 
For the Olympics it's all about the money too. They just don't want people to think so but that's the real reason why they finally let the professionals in. And for years they bent over backwards to accommodate the Soviet Union and its satellite states--letting them bring their best athletes (a good many of the Soviet players like Fetisov, Kasatonov, Larionov, Tretiak, Kharlamov all played for CSKA a Moscow based team tied to the Russian Army--so they were soldiers! first and foremost? who only played hockey as a sideline?) while at the same time claiming that the best players from North America weren't eligible because they played just for the $. Despite all that the United States still pulled off two very stunning upsets. The thing is the NHL wasn't good enough for them for a long, long time stretching into decades and doesn't owe the IOC anything at all--even if the IOC is now in the business of selling its product like any other business/corporation.

The IOC's attitude regarding the Russians was more than a little bit ridiculous, but as a whole, the idea of an amateur sportsman being able to compete in this type of event was getting more and more ridiculous as the 20th century went on, whether the IOC made the change for monetary reasons or not. Simply put, you can keep tabs on 250 athletes involved in the games and whether they are amateurs or not. You can't keep track of the 11,000 or so that compete in the games now. In addition to that, the standard of competition has made it impossible for amateurs to compete in the games.

And no, the NHL doesn't owe the IOC anything. I never would say they did. They owe the hockey community and they owe the hockey playing countries, but not the IOC. The IOC just happens to be the organization they're required to deal with, in this case.
 
The IOC's attitude regarding the Russians was more than a little bit ridiculous, but as a whole, the idea of an amateur sportsman being able to compete in this type of event was getting more and more ridiculous as the 20th century went on, whether the IOC made the change for monetary reasons or not. Simply put, you can keep tabs on 250 athletes involved in the games and whether they are amateurs or not. You can't keep track of the 11,000 or so that compete in the games now. In addition to that, the standard of competition has made it impossible for amateurs to compete in the games.

And no, the NHL doesn't owe the IOC anything. I never would say they did. They owe the hockey community and they owe the hockey playing countries, but not the IOC. The IOC just happens to be the organization they're required to deal with, in this case.

There's a good point to what you're saying but historically the NHL over the years and way before Bettman came along did a lot of grunt work to build a sport. Much more than it's given credit for. The entire junior hockey apparatus of the CHL in Canada and all the feeder leagues that supported it over decades was bankrolled and built from the ground up by the NHL. Teams used to own their own junior teams--usually several not at all unlike a lot of European teams today that have copycatted that approach. A player was brought up from a very early age--his property rights owned by this or that team if he should turn out good. The IOC until recently and to some degree the NCAA have done their best over the years to attack this.

On a whole other level--young players used to aim at making these teams. They barnstormed the US or Canada playing schedules against junior and college teams. They gave away years and careers to do it. They helped to build USA hockey to what it is toady. Now it's the WJC's or bust for these guys which is not the same thing.

And on another level I'm a Rangers fan first and foremost. I made that commitment a long time ago. I wouldn't stop being a Rangers fan whether there were 20 million of us or 20 thousand and in my mind winning a Stanley Cup takes precedence over Jimmy Dolan turning a profit in ticket sales, concessions, merchandise or memorabilia. It's nice I suppose that the team is worth a lot of $ but when I started Brad Park was making something like $25--30 K a year and I can remember one of our ******** owners back is those days saying when asked by a journalist that he'd rather make a profit than his team win a championship. Seriously I think as well about the effect a condensed schedule has on our team? or hypothetical situations such as what happens if Henrik gets seriously hurt?--keeping in mind Jagr getting clocked by Jarkko Ruuttu a couple Olympics ago. So I go into every season with one thing in mind--what's going to happen with NY Rangers?--that's pretty much what I give a **** about--not who wins the Olympics. To me the Stanley Cup is the real deal.
 
Sather admitted the player's opinion swayed his decision on the coach.

What more evidence do you need? A tape recording?

Yep, in this case I do need a tape (where's Nixon when you need him?) because everything Sather has said publically indicates the opposite:

"It's not true that the players came to me," Sather said. "Once something gets some legs pretty soon it gets a life of its own but it's not true. I wouldn't allow a player to come to me and say 'we don't like the coach any more, he's got to go,' because that's not how it works."

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on...-interest-in-brian-boyle-updates-stepan-talks

Sather pretty much treats players as children--to be seen but not heard. While I don't doubt that the players did make their displeaure known to higher ups in the organization, I don't think Sather heard it directly from them.
 
How much does the IOC get from NBC?

Comcast agreed to pay $4.38 billion for the United States media rights to four Olympics from 2014 to 2020, which eclipsed a $3.4 billion offer from Fox, a division of News Corporation. In an auction that allowed bids for two or four Olympic Games, or both, ESPN, a division of the Walt Disney Company, offered $1.4 billion for the 2014 Winter Games in Sochi, Russia, and the 2016 Summer Games in Rio de Janeiro.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/s...hts-to-next-four-olympics.html?pagewanted=all

That's just the U.S. rights.
 
No excuses for Richards this year. Style of play doesn't matter if he is out of shape and can barely skate without huffing and puffing. The lack of accountability on himself for last season's performance is a bit disconcerting.

And if he doesn't play well, one would think that AV will have put Richards on a far shorter leash than Torts did.

Agreed.

Sounds like we found one of the gutless wonders who didn't have the balls to tell the coach how he felt in the exit interviews and instead slunk his way into the GMs office to cry instead.

I don't care how good he used to be. I don't want Richards anywhere near a team I cheer for.
 
The breakdown of Adam Henrique's new deal is $2M, $3M, $4M, $4.5M, $5M, $5.5M.

https://twitter.com/reporterchris/status/372162492665192448

The arbitration years are worth $3M,$4M and $4.5M. The two group III years are worth $5M and $5.5M. Not crazy numbers if the player had more than one good year. Those numbers are in line for a player with more than one good year.

Couture got 2 years/$5.75M last summer. Subban got the same contract. $2.875M. Couture signed a 6 year/$30M extension this summer. Subban will get Drew Doughty money next summer.

$2.75M and $3M. Stepan more than triples his salary for this season. Stepan gets a bigger deal in 2015 like Couture did and Subban will next summer.

Couture had 12 playoff goals and 22 points in 38 games his first 3 years. Stepan has 5 playoff goals and 14 points in 37 playoff games. Couture had 5 goals and 11 points in 11 playoff games this spring. The Rangers make the Cup finals and/or beat Boston if Stepan had Couture's playoff numbers. Couture is a better goal scorer. Stepan was on pace for a 30 goal season in 2013. He had 18 goals in 48 games. Couture had 21 in 48 games. 35-36 goal pace. He had 32 and 31 in his first 2 full NHL seasons. Stepan had 21 and 17 in his first 2 NHL seasons.

The Rangers give and Stepan gives.
 
Some of the stuff being said here about the Olympics I find laughable at best. But since neither side will
Ever concede or change their intrenched stance ( that includes stubborn me) it is really quite pointless to argue the matter any further. I will offer this to the discussion, a significant portion of the premium players in the NHL are not from the rinks of North America and therefore not part of the North American program Bettman allegedly has achieved during his reign. They are in fact financed and trained by respective hockey Federation from a plethora of different countries and then snatched up by the NHL to quite a low premium. These Federations of course want to See their best players in the Olympics as it feeds the system that in the End feeds them. Like it or not this has a huge positive impact on the quality of play in the NHL and also allows the league to ice 30 teams of sustainable quality. What would the NHL look like today without the European influx of high end talent??? Cannot have the cake and eat it too. Regarding the. Corruption of the IOK as an organization and their handling of the label professional
in the past - I can only chime in and agree to all the critical points that have been made in this thread on the matter. But when it comes down to it and most importantly - a large majority of the players themselves vehementally want to play The Olympics as this is heavily prized as a special event in their careers that is hard to beat. From all nations. How do I know this you might ask? I know dozens of hockey players that have participated here (my own brother was on the preliminary squad for Team USA to the Albertville Olympics but broke his foot in a pretournament game and did not go) and almost all of them have the Olympic participation as a highlight of their career. Many Gold Medal winners here - from many countries - value that medal higher than a Stanley Cup ring. Like it or not, that is the con census of the players attitude and as long as that is the norm they will be fighting to participate in these games in The future. And they will most likely get their way. And I really think that many of the owners also see the benefit. Otherwise we are back at the cattle and Rancher argument... Which of course is something which everybody fan can support but hardly live after in the reality of their own lives...
 
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Stepan had 18 goals and 44 points in 48 games for the Rangers in 2012-13 -- a pace that would have yielded 30 goals and 75 points over the course of a full season. He turned 23 in June and already has 140 points in 212 career NHL games.

Those numbers are almost identical to Mike Richards at the same age (Richards, now with the Los Angeles Kings, had 49 goals and 141 points in 211 games). Stepan's 0.66 points per game before his 23rd birthday places him just behind Logan Couture of the San Jose Sharks (.71) and Jamie Benn of the Dallas Stars (.72) among players who have completed exactly three NHL seasons before turning 23 since 2005-06.

Richards and Benn both signed long-term deals as second contracts worth $5.75 million and $5.25 million against the salary cap, respectively. Couture signed a "bridge deal," which has become a popular term in recent years. His pact was for two years at $2.875 million, and he will start a five-year, $30 million extension in 2014-15.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=19752

Richards signed a 12 year contract. Benn signed a 5 year deal. Dallas gave James Neal 2 years/$5.75M in 2010. Then Pittsburgh gave Neal 6 years and $30M which covers 4 years of group III. Neal wanted a longer term deal from the Stars.

Derek Stepan interview

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=53&id=264014&cmpid=embed-share-video

Ryan McDonagh spoke to Shawn P. Roarke of NHL.com about Marc Staal

Just spoke to Ryan McDonagh at USA camp and he said that he has seen Marc Staal over summer and Staal is doing great and is ready for camp

Here is the McDonagh quote on Marc Staal: "I've seen him over the summer. He's excited. (cont) 1/2

McDonagh (2/2): "(M. Staal) says he's feeling good and excited to be back and to bump guys around a bit. It seems like he is ready to go."

https://twitter.com/sroarke_nhl
 
Keep in mind that the Devils are in a totally different franchise situation than NYR; We're one of the youngest teams in the league, their average age is like 40. They needed to lock him up. Looks like a good deal for both.

Hate to just come into the convo here but the Devils have nearly the exact aame averge age the Devils do....... We are at like 28 and you are at 27
 
Hate to just come into the convo here but the Devils have nearly the exact aame averge age the Devils do....... We are at like 28 and you are at 27

30.8 and oldest in the league is "like" 28? The Devils are over a full year older than Detroit in 2nd.

The Rangers are ~at 28 with an average of 27.9 18th in the league, or if you flip it around 13th youngest.

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams
 
Some of the stuff being said here about the Olympics I find laughable at best. But since neither side will
Ever concede or change their intrenched stance ( that includes stubborn me) it is really quite pointless to argue the matter any further. I will offer this to the discussion, a significant portion of the premium players in the NHL are not from the rinks of North America and therefore not part of the North American program Bettman allegedly has achieved during his reign. They are in fact financed and trained by respective hockey Federation from a plethora of different countries and then snatched up by the NHL to quite a low premium. These Federations of course want to See their best players in the Olympics as it feeds the system that in the End feeds them. Like it or not this has a huge positive impact on the quality of play in the NHL and also allows the league to ice 30 teams of sustainable quality. What would the NHL look like today without the European influx of high end talent??? Cannot have the cake and eat it too. Regarding the. Corruption of the IOK as an organization and their handling of the label professional
in the past - I can only chime in and agree to all the critical points that have been made in this thread on the matter. But when it comes down to it and most importantly - a large majority of the players themselves vehementally want to play The Olympics as this is heavily prized as a special event in their careers that is hard to beat. From all nations. How do I know this you might ask? I know dozens of hockey players that have participated here (my own brother was on the preliminary squad for Team USA to the Albertville Olympics but broke his foot in a pretournament game and did not go) and almost all of them have the Olympic participation as a highlight of their career. Many Gold Medal winners here - from many countries - value that medal higher than a Stanley Cup ring. Like it or not, that is the con census of the players attitude and as long as that is the norm they will be fighting to participate in these games in The future. And they will most likely get their way. And I really think that many of the owners also see the benefit. Otherwise we are back at the cattle and Rancher argument... Which of course is something which everybody fan can support but hardly live after in the reality of their own lives...

Agreed, the positive effects is not something you can touch on and the benefits are to some extent contingent on factors that we never will know for sure.

As a starting point, the game is doing fairly well in the US, but well enough? Maybe maybe not. Outside NA, the game is definitely suffering in several of the traditional markets (Czech Rep, Slovakia and Sweden) and coming along but slowely outside the traditional markets.

The Olympics are huge outside NA and, in the US, it can be questioned how big it will be (and I mean, who knows, maybe the US and Russia are indirectly in war with each other in Syria 3.5 months from now, who knows what impact that would have. A US-Rus final with Putin is in the stands?). Its a lottery ticket too in a postive way.

The NHL was really attractive in Europe 15-20 years ago. In Sweden, you had like 5% of the population check the NHL scores on text-tv the first thing they did every morning of the season. How many pts did Forsberg scored? We have state radio here, and I remember constantly hearing NHL scores on the -- main -- news in the morning when I grew up. Forsberg scored 2+1 tonight, and now leads the NHL in scoring.

It was the same thing in the Czech Rep and Slovakia.

But the NHL could -- not -- capitalize on that. The technology wasn't there. The games was played night time, few had any cable-tv to talk about. In 99' a few NHL games was played on national TV on sunday night (there were much fewer afternoon games back then). I remember how one of our games (Could it have been against Montreal? It was one of Gretz last games) had a viewing of 800k (20 pecent of all households) and the game started 10.30pm local time on a Sunday.

Now, within three years (I guess) the NHL will have CenterIce in Europe, and anyone will be able to watch any game they want at any time of the day in any form they want.

The NHL and hockey have lost a substansial amount of the glare it had in Europe. For many reasons (I recon the evil Soviets aren't part of the game anymore, Soccer has grown tremendously with the Champions League being unimaginably popular right now, just a thing like the NHL players 10 years ago being the best paid athleets in Europe helped the game, they made more than the biggest soccer stars, hence the public respect them more, but now they probably make like from a 10th to 25% of the absolute best paid soccer players).

But no matter what, you gotta take into account that the NHL got a big market to exploit in Europe. How much money comes from Europe to the NHL today? Its hard to appriciate, but I would be suprised if all in all its equal to one NHL team or 3%. Is it 0.5% or 0.05%? I don't think its completely insignificant (you got people travling to NA buying tickets etc, TV money, merchendise, and advertisements that include Europe in their number to some extent atleast). I am not saying that its reasonable for the NHL to expect like 10% or 20% or 50% to come from Europe, but equal to one team shouldn't be impossible within a reasonable time frame to be honest. Thats 400.000 people gathering 125 bucks a year. If you get local commercials into games etc, it piles up pretty fast.
 
Hate to just come into the convo here but the Devils have nearly the exact aame averge age the Devils do....... We are at like 28 and you are at 27

Nice edit.

Did some quick math.

The combined age of your 22 roster players on capgeek is 690. The combined age of our 23 players (including Stepan) is also 690. Gives you an average of 31.36 and us an average of 30. I included the waived Asham and Powe.
 
Agreed, the positive effects is not something you can touch on and the benefits are to some extent contingent on factors that we never will know for sure.

As a starting point, the game is doing fairly well in the US, but well enough? Maybe maybe not. Outside NA, the game is definitely suffering in several of the traditional markets (Czech Rep, Slovakia and Sweden) and coming along but slowely outside the traditional markets.

The Olympics are huge outside NA and, in the US, it can be questioned how big it will be (and I mean, who knows, maybe the US and Russia are indirectly in war with each other in Syria 3.5 months from now, who knows what impact that would have. A US-Rus final with Putin is in the stands?). Its a lottery ticket too in a postive way.

The NHL was really attractive in Europe 15-20 years ago. In Sweden, you had like 5% of the population check the NHL scores on text-tv the first thing they did every morning of the season. How many pts did Forsberg scored? We have state radio here, and I remember constantly hearing NHL scores on the -- main -- news in the morning when I grew up. Forsberg scored 2+1 tonight, and now leads the NHL in scoring.

It was the same thing in the Czech Rep and Slovakia.

But the NHL could -- not -- capitalize on that.
The technology wasn't there. The games was played night time, few had any cable-tv to talk about. In 99' a few NHL games was played on national TV on sunday night (there were much fewer afternoon games back then). I remember how one of our games (Could it have been against Montreal? It was one of Gretz last games) had a viewing of 800k (20 pecent of all households) and the game started 10.30pm local time on a Sunday.

Now, within three years (I guess) the NHL will have CenterIce in Europe, and anyone will be able to watch any game they want at any time of the day in any form they want.

The NHL and hockey have lost a substansial amount of the glare it had in Europe. For many reasons (I recon the evil Soviets aren't part of the game anymore, Soccer has grown tremendously with the Champions League being unimaginably popular right now, just a thing like the NHL players 10 years ago being the best paid athleets in Europe helped the game, they made more than the biggest soccer stars, hence the public respect them more, but now they probably make like from a 10th to 25% of the absolute best paid soccer players).

But no matter what, you gotta take into account that the NHL got a big market to exploit in Europe. How much money comes from Europe to the NHL today? Its hard to appriciate, but I would be suprised if all in all its equal to one NHL team or 3%. Is it 0.5% or 0.05%? I don't think its completely insignificant (you got people travling to NA buying tickets etc, TV money, merchendise, and advertisements that include Europe in their number to some extent atleast). I am not saying that its reasonable for the NHL to expect like 10% or 20% or 50% to come from Europe, but equal to one team shouldn't be impossible within a reasonable time frame to be honest. Thats 400.000 people gathering 125 bucks a year. If you get local commercials into games etc, it piles up pretty fast.

Indeed. The NHL was big in Sweden in the 90's. Every kid was collecting hockey cards, the stars (not just the Swedish ones) were household names. I remember having a huge argument with a classmate over who got to "be" Eric Lindros when we were playing ball hockey during recess back in the 2nd grade.

The NHL has become a niche interest and if we are further disconnected from our stars by not having them for the Olympics, that will almost certainly hurt the talent development in the long run as kids defect to other sports.
 
Hate to just come into the convo here but the Devils have nearly the exact aame averge age the Devils do....... We are at like 28 and you are at 27

Here's the problem for the Devils--significant players under age 25 for the Devils--Adam Henrique, Adam Larsson (who is still struggling a bit)--after that you have Josefson, Loktionov and Tedenby with some NHL but not looking all that significant. Better prospects--Merrill, Boucher, Matteau, Urbom, Severson--quite a bit iffy. Going towards the future--the Devils need to upgrade a lot--especially at forward and especially if Boucher and Matteau don't become top 6 players which is a distinct possibility especially for Matteau.

Rangers under 25--have McDonagh--who is already a star IMO--Stepan--a budding star and better all around player than Henrique and Del Zotto. Kreider, Miller and Falk are others with NHL experience--Kreider and Miller much more upside than Josefson, Loktionov and Tedenby. Falk a legit bottom pairing d-man. Better prospects--Lindberg (SEL playoff MVP last year), Kristo, McIlrath, Fasth, Skjei. I'd easily take the Rangers group of under 25's over the Devils group in all these categories of established NHL players, guys with some NHL experience and guys yet to play in the NHL and the Rangers are good but probably not as good as a number of other NHL teams.

Which is to say finally despite whatever the average age of the Devils compared to the Rangers roster--the Devils need desperately to rebuild their farm system from top to bottom IMO. They have too little in the bank for the future. IMO Henrique gets that contract because whether he's able to or not and like it or not he's going to have to be a serious go to guy leading the offense into the future (16 points last year or not) for the Devils for many years to come if only because for the moment anyway there's no one else that appears to be at all capable of doing such a thing. Personally I think he is a good player but I have my doubts about his being star material with so little support around him.
 
Hate to just come into the convo here but the Devils have nearly the exact aame averge age the Devils do....... We are at like 28 and you are at 27

Seriously? You've got 4 35+ contracts. The majority of your top players are 30+.

Jagr 41
Elias 37
Zubrus 35
Ryder 33
Clowe 30
Zajac 28

Salvatore 37
Zidlicky 36
Volchenkov 31
Greene 30
Harold 30
Larsson 20

Brodeur 41
Schneider 27

Larsson hasn't lived up to his hype yet, but he's only 20. Henrique is only 23, but coming off a down year. Outside of those 2, what young proven guys do you have? None. Loktionov hasn't done much yet.

Compare that to the Rangers:

Richards 33
Nash 29
Callahan 28
Brassard 25
Hagelin 25
Zuccarello 25
Stepan 23

Girardi 29
Stralman 27
Staal 26
McDonagh 24
Del Zotto 23
Moore 22

Biron 36
Lundqvist 31

Our entire defense is younger than your entire defense outside of Larsson.

Kreider hasn't done much yet, but is only 22. We have a number of kids that are on the cusp of being ready for the NHL. Our farm system is consistently ranked higher than the devil's system. That doesn't look to change with you guys trading the 9th overall for a 27 year old goalie and not having a 1st next year.

Throwing in a bunch of unproven kids to bring the average age down doesn't make you a young team.
 
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