While I agree with this, I also believe that McKenna might have better stats than Bedard in his first 2 years due to better circumstances then people will come out of the woodwork rewriting history.
The Next Ones (after Bedard)
- Thread starter independent observer
- Start date
After drafting Lafreniere and Kakko, all I can tell you is, in the modern NHL, if you have a top 3 pick and you’re considering a player who doesn’t have at least near elite skating, look elsewhere. No one is going to convince me that Stutzle not going first was down to any reason beyond playing in the DEL. There isn’t a single facet of Lafreniere’s game that equals Stu’s and that isn’t because Stutzle has grown since entering the league; it’s been that way since day 1. If the best thing you can say about a prospect is they do everything good but nothing elite, they’re not an elite prospect. Neither Laf nor Kakko had a single elite aspect to their games and they will go down as two of the worst top picks in NHL history. Humiliating.
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
Seeing that you're a Rangers fan, I can understand your frustration on how they turned out. But you framing Lafreniere as not having elite skills is pretty much the opposite of every major scouting profile of him. Most scouting services actually praised his speed.
You can even re-read the entire Lafreniere thread on this forum, and other than a few trolls, everyone was in agreement that he was the top choice in 2020.
It's funny the re-writes of history on here about Laf. He was the consensus no. 1. And any team that didn't take him 1st overall would have been ripped to shreds.
I’m positive he was the consensus #1. We’ve rehashed dozens of various scouting reports on our boards though and he was really never considered to have any elite attributes besides IQ, which hasn’t really translated against NHL talent. My point about Stutzle wasn’t that the Rangers went against conventional wisdom, but that - especially during Covid - guys from the DEL just weren’t ever going to be viewed as highly as guys in the CHL. Stutzle is objectively better at every facet of hockey and has been since the first game of their first seasons, but evaluating prospects in the DEL and German’s second league is more difficult because it’s not nearly as scouted to begin with.
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
“A premier, point-producing machine of a forward. Extremely dangerous in one-on-one situations. Scores in a variety of ways. Brings the noise. Will be one of the rare wingers who will dictate everything. There’s little reason to believe he won’t immediately step into the NHL next fall and make an impact. A very worthy first-overall pick.” – Cam Robinson, DobberProspects
“His blend of elite power and puck protection with high-end puck skills as a handler, shooter and passer should make him an impact player immediately… Lafreniere’s now got a powerful stride that gives him the explosiveness he needs to cut through lanes and back defenders off, something that was once a (minor) concern. There’s also nothing about his game that makes me worry about his projection. He’s not passive, nor does he try to do too much — he takes calculated risks. He doesn’t tunnel vision as a shooter or passer, constantly surveying the ice for his best options. And he has all of the athletic tools he needs. When people lean on him, it’s like he doesn’t even notice they’re there. Even without the hardest shot or the quickest feet in the draft, he’s the clear best player and there shouldn’t be much — if any — hesitation for any team with the first overall pick.” – Scott Wheeler, The Athletic (from: “Wheeler: Midseason ranking for the 2020 NHL Draft’s top 62 prospects” – The Athletic – Feb. 19, 2020)
“A gifted scoring winger with outstanding hockey sense and the ability to elevate his game when the situation necessitates it…Although there are many things about Lafreniere that scream elite, specifically his vision and deadly wrist shot, it’s his insanely-high compete level, tenacity on the puck, and selflessness that set him apart from all his peers. Play him on a line with equally-heralded or accomplished prospects, and he’ll make it a point to tap into their strengths rather than make himself the center of attention. Lafreniere is an excellent skater in all directions, but his powerful stride allows him to separate from opponents in open ice. He can tailor his game to fit any style of play, and his ability to play physical causes significant matchup problems for smaller opponents.” – Steve Kournianos, The Draft Analyst
Fantastic work. Like I said, we’ve dredged up dozens of scouting reports. Do you think anyone wants him to be better than Rangers fans do? The deadly wrist shot hasn’t shown itself and the insanely high compete level has looked like a lot of complacency (though he’s done well bringing some extra gears in the playoffs). His power and puck protection hasn’t translated. He isn’t that big of a guy and it simply hasn’t manifested.
Those are a couple of quotes that are pumping his tires and I never said there were zero. In fact, even though, yes 100% the quote you chose does say there are things about Lafreniere that are elite, what it actually says is “even though he has some elite attributes, it’s actually his tenacity and compete level that sets him apart” - ie. his effort elevates his total package. The fact that they have to say “although he has these attributes… it’s his compete level that sets him apart” demonstrates that his skills alone didn’t really separate him from the pack. And it hasn’t been true in the NHL as 99% of Ranger fans will call out his effort level and conditioning as issues. No one points to elite skating, speed, edges, hands, size, vision, passing… the quotes you cherry picked said ready to step into the NHL, elite power and puck protection (fair enough, but turned out to not translate against pro D) and a “deadly” wrist shot with elite compete.
I wish he had elite compete, but even so that’s not so much a skill. His shot has certainly not shown up as deadly at the NHL level. If Laf’s shot is elite what are Matthews’ and Bedard’s? I’m not being facetious. Lafreniere very clearly doesn’t have an elite shot. He doesn’t have elite skating, vision, hands, passing or IQ. He was powerful against juniors but stopped progressing against men. We don’t need to split hairs - I’m not sure why you’re trying to “prove” to me that some scouting reports spoke highly of him when I said I’m positive he was the consensus #1 pick - my point was he didn’t have a real tangible elite skill that was his calling card and he’s fallen pretty flat at the pro level. The only thing that could really be construed as controversial about what I said was that Stutzle (clearly an elite skater, clearly has far superior hands, demonstrably has a better shot and displays a far higher compete level) was under-scouted which, especially during a global pandemic, accounted for him not being #1. It’s not like he was #15. He went 3… is it that wild to think he may well have gone 1 if he’d played in the OHL?
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
Your argument is completely based on hindsight and anything that has happened to his development post draft. You keep using Stutzle as a comparison but also post draft, and anything he has done post draft. The fact that Laf's skills have not translated to the NHL as well is irrelevant in terms of pre-draft comparisons and analysis.
It's ok to be wrong about Laf, I was wrong about him too. But based on the draft profiles of both players at THE TIME, 99 out of 100 would taken LAF.
I'm willing to bet you didn't feel this way on the day he was drafted.
My entire point is that its easy to say he will be better than Bedard when Bedard has been underwhelming. If you actually followed and watched the games you would remember the hype around Bedard. At the same point of their careers, Bedard was getting McDavid praise.History won’t require being rewritten for those who knew McKenna was better.
And my entire point is that Bedard has not been underwhelming, he trends to be a superstar, as I expected from him when he was 15, I expect even more from McKenna, hardly an easy statement to make.
Been following prospects professionally for 20+ years, I’ll stick with my assessment!
Bedard is closer to Matthews, McKenna will be the next McDavid/Crosby level player.
Mathieukferland
Registered User
Who knows how good Bedard ends up being when he has a real team around him, but I think it’s revisionist history to claim that what McKenna has showed so far in the WHL and internationally was better than what Bédard showed in the WHL and internationally. Bedard was able to penetrate the middle of the ice a lot better at the same age, and even with worse teammates than McKenna has in MH, able to become an elite playmaker because of how much teams would cheat towards him in coverage to take away his shot, spaces he then exploited. McKenna is no doubt having an impressive 17 year old season in the WHL, but it’s behind Bédard’s output and we saw at the WJC, even in spite of all the fundamental issues with that team, that McKenna became more perimeter when the level and physicality increased
To be clear, I’m not here arguing who will end up being the best WHL player
whilst I think it’s McKenna, that’s not relevant.I’m saying based on the skill sets at the same age, it’s my belief that McKenna is going to be the better NHL player down the road. He’s the most dynamic prospect I’ve ever seen.
I still think Bedard is a superstar, best forward drafted since McDavid…until June 2026.
This is the last time I will respond but I simply don’t see that whatsoever. McKenna is nowhere close to a McD or Crosby. That is an outrageous statement for a kid that was a complete nothingburger on the worlds biggest stage.
To put it into perspective for you, Matthews had 40 goals in his rookie year. Bedard, who was supposed to be the best “goal scorer” drafted within the past 2 decades, doesn’t even have 40 goals through 2 seasons. How is that not underwhelming?
Your takes are those of a < 24 year old who started watching hockey not long ago, to be completely honest. Highly doubt you’ve been at this for 20 years mate.
Take everything I say (or that you read online) with a grain of salt, but don’t get amnesia in a few years when we revisit!
He is closer to the 16 year old versions of Crosby/McDavid than the 17 year old versions. Next year is when you would expect him to make some noise at the WJCs.
For now, he is certainly making enough noise in the W, like Bedard, to make statistical comparisons to Crosby/McDavid.
King In The North
Sean Bennett
Mr Buckles
Registered User
- Jun 6, 2018
- 411
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Time will tell how he develops but at this stage of his career he looks extremely dynamic and I hope he is just another is a very good run of WHL recently.
the thing going for Schultz is that he has elite skating, whereas Bedard and McKenna don't.
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Pavel Buchnevich
Drury and Laviolette Must Go
To me the lesson from Bedard and Lafreniere is that NHL teams have to have their eyes more open, and not fall into their own bubble.
Putting up historic totals in the CHL is great. It's great that they were succeeding for Canada in international junior tournaments, but Canada can't have the next generational player every single year. It's just not realistic, yet apparently that's what we're hearing.
It defaces someone like DuPont, an actual generational player, when players with clear flaws towards being a generational player, are called generational. People need to have some standards. There was literally never anything special about Lafreniere. People talked him up as maybe Huberdeau on steroids. At this point, you hope for Huberdeau or a little less. He's a decent NHL top 6 winger, maybe a first liner eventually, but he's far from a generational talent. Bedard put up historic scoring totals, but he's exactly the type of player that would do that and not see his game translate as well to professional hockey. It's not to say he won't be an NHL star. He likely will and was likely a little better than Lafreniere, but the lack of size and only okay skating for his size and only okay off the puck game for his size are impediments to being any more than like more of a shooting Jack Hughes or a smaller Stamkos.
And so I hope people can cool it with McKenna. There's nothing generational about him. He's an average sized winger with decent, not amazing skating, and an average defensive game. I think he'll be roughly about as good in the NHL as Bedard (although he could fall a little below expectations and end up like Lafreniere). Yeah, maybe he just scores his way to an eventual generational NHL'er a la Kucherov (who I think it's questionable if he's that, as I don't think he is yet some disagree), but the overall game impact is not generational and has missing elements.
It's not to say Canada doesn't produce the best hockey players. They still tend to produce the best superstar level NHL'ers (USA is arguably as good at producing very good NHL'ers but lacks as many true NHL superstars), but it seems like there's a "living in your own bubble problem" that goes on with these institutions in hockey right now. Can someone even tell me the last non-Canadian player who was talked up as generational?
Putting up historic totals in the CHL is great. It's great that they were succeeding for Canada in international junior tournaments, but Canada can't have the next generational player every single year. It's just not realistic, yet apparently that's what we're hearing.
It defaces someone like DuPont, an actual generational player, when players with clear flaws towards being a generational player, are called generational. People need to have some standards. There was literally never anything special about Lafreniere. People talked him up as maybe Huberdeau on steroids. At this point, you hope for Huberdeau or a little less. He's a decent NHL top 6 winger, maybe a first liner eventually, but he's far from a generational talent. Bedard put up historic scoring totals, but he's exactly the type of player that would do that and not see his game translate as well to professional hockey. It's not to say he won't be an NHL star. He likely will and was likely a little better than Lafreniere, but the lack of size and only okay skating for his size and only okay off the puck game for his size are impediments to being any more than like more of a shooting Jack Hughes or a smaller Stamkos.
And so I hope people can cool it with McKenna. There's nothing generational about him. He's an average sized winger with decent, not amazing skating, and an average defensive game. I think he'll be roughly about as good in the NHL as Bedard (although he could fall a little below expectations and end up like Lafreniere). Yeah, maybe he just scores his way to an eventual generational NHL'er a la Kucherov (who I think it's questionable if he's that, as I don't think he is yet some disagree), but the overall game impact is not generational and has missing elements.
It's not to say Canada doesn't produce the best hockey players. They still tend to produce the best superstar level NHL'ers (USA is arguably as good at producing very good NHL'ers but lacks as many true NHL superstars), but it seems like there's a "living in your own bubble problem" that goes on with these institutions in hockey right now. Can someone even tell me the last non-Canadian player who was talked up as generational?
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
I think the issue is that people can't differentiate between a generational CHL player and a generational NHL prospect. Bedard was the former but not the latter. McKenna may be too.
People just need to stop using the word generational and just be more descriptive and also realistic in profiling skillsets.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Bedard was a really, really tricky case. I would watch a WHL game and see Zach Benson be head and shoulders better than Bedard for two periods and then Bedard would pop four goals in five minutes. I would struggle to find what was impressive about Bedard except the finishing skills, but the production was undeniable. He was very smart with great hands and a great shot. So are we seeing a guy whose finishing isn't translating because he was beating up on CHL defenses and goaltending? Only time will tell, but I am not personally shocked by what's happening with him in the NHL.
