Speculation: The narrative in TOR has changed so quickly

[ToneDog]

Why does everyone act like Kadri was given away when the fact was the value was there and it just wasn't a fit. And for gods sake, get over it. It's one trade. One player. Other teams make mistakes and recover. Theres 31 teams. Someone wins and loses every transaction. This market demands literal perfection and uses hindsight to degrade anything that didn't turn out perfectly. They signed John Tavares for free! Free!! They traded nothing to get him!! And signed Brodie for free too! So now instead of Barrie they have Brodie in that slot for the money Kadri was making. Let me reiterate that they signed TJ Brodie for free. You can make a move that doesn't work out and still continue to make good moves. Im so tired of reading this garbage.

The Kadri trade is now Kadri for Kerfoot and Brodie. We get a reset and if Brodie is himself Dubas gets a win. I was thinking that trading for 1 year of Barrie was a mistake but it turns out to be genius. Imagine another 4 years of Barrie in Blue and White.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Why does everyone act like Kadri was given away when the fact was the value was there and it just wasn't a fit. And for gods sake, get over it. It's one trade. One player. Other teams make mistakes and recover. Theres 31 teams. Someone wins and loses every transaction. This market demands literal perfection and uses hindsight to degrade anything that didn't turn out perfectly. They signed John Tavares for free! Free!! They traded nothing to get him!! And signed Brodie for free too! So now instead of Barrie they have Brodie in that slot for the money Kadri was making. Let me reiterate that they signed TJ Brodie for free. You can make a move that doesn't work out and still continue to make good moves. Im so tired of reading this garbage.

I think what gets lost as well for a lot of folks is these one year commitment deals. They are literally zero commitment. A chance to prove yourself or be dumped as something better surfaces (you can never predict when/who those things are). It's exactly the problem with a Lou type strategy that often commits more dollars and term than should be (mainly to guys who don't deserve dollars and term).

 

[IPS]

Your description of those players is inaccurate, and the Leafs had their best defensive results this year. Not only did you not predict what would happen this past season, you're not even properly evaluating what did happen after the fact.

Your opinion is not fact.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Your opinion is not fact.

No, fact is fact, and fact is, Leafs had their best defensive results this year.

 

[IPS]

No, fact is fact, and fact is, Leafs had their best defensive results this year.

I'm not going to rehash the debate over how accurate HDSC against, CF% and all the other blogger stats that you can twist around to support a vast array of opinions around the league. Go ahead and blame goaltending for everything, it's your prerogative.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Go ahead and blame goaltending for everything, it's your prerogative.

Nobody is "blaming goaltending for everything". It's just a fact that the Leafs had their best defensive results this past year, which is incredibly clear by every single metric, both basic and "advanced", and for the first time in years, it was not the primary weakness of our team. For the first time in years, goaltending was the primary weakness of our team. Hopefully Andersen can get back to his previous level, and the improved goalie depth can help.

 

[hotpaws]

Why does everyone act like Kadri was given away when the fact was the value was there and it just wasn't a fit. And for gods sake, get over it. It's one trade. One player. Other teams make mistakes and recover. Theres 31 teams. Someone wins and loses every transaction. This market demands literal perfection and uses hindsight to degrade anything that didn't turn out perfectly. They signed John Tavares for free! Free!! They traded nothing to get him!! And signed Brodie for free too! So now instead of Barrie they have Brodie in that slot for the money Kadri was making. Let me reiterate that they signed TJ Brodie for free. You can make a move that doesn't work out and still continue to make good moves. Im so tired of reading this garbage.

the issue is the value wasn't there , Kadri was on very team friendly deal with term left and shouldn't have been traded for a rental D (and i use the term D loosely because he really is only a d because that's where he line's up) and an extremely meh forward who we are already trying to dump

and if your tired abut reading this garbage then just admit it was a bad trade and stop making excuses for it

 

[Trapper]

I blame a lot of things. The shot generation on the first line was fantastic. It wasnt those forwards.

I think players coming out and saying they aren’t engaged is pretty much a cause for concern no? Shutout in almost 3 games is also an issue.

But it’s always easier to blame someone else.
Bottom line, the leaders need to do better. When next playoff rolls around, they need to be a little more engaged and prepared to fight through hard check, adversity, wouldn’t you say? Ok shot generation. What are you going to do in that case. Have to make it harder for the goalie to see, drive deeper in the crease, etc. Whatever.
If we continue to lose in the first round, what would you like to change next? Assistant trainer?

 

[hotpaws]

I blame a lot of things. The shot generation on the first line was fantastic. It wasnt those forwards.

they don't decide games on "shot generation" so if the team wasn't actually putting the puck in the net why do our expensive core get a free pass ?

 

[The Podium]

Your opinion is not fact.

Facts are facts.

xGA
2020 133.48
2019 168.82
2018 166.49
2017 154.6

SCA
2020 1538
2019 1943
2018 1847
2017 1703

HDCA
2020 637
2019 738
2018 726
2017 670

SCGA
2020 137
2019 149
2018 128
2017 130

SCSV%
2020 85.41
2019 87.01
2018 88.73
2017 87.52

HDSV%
2020 81.10
2019 82.03
2018 83.93
2017 83.50

This past season the Leafs reduced scoring chances against, high danger scoring chances against and their expected goals against. The problem is their Gs had the worst save% in all categories. Goaltending was a bigger issue this past season than the D.

 

[IPS]

I think players coming out and saying they aren’t engaged is pretty much a cause for concern no? Shutout in almost 3 games is also an issue.

But it’s always easier to blame someone else.
Bottom line, the leaders need to do better. When next playoff rolls around, they need to be a little more engaged and prepared to fight through hard check, adversity, wouldn’t you say? Ok shot generation. What are you going to do in that case. Have to make it harder for the goalie to see, drive deeper in the crease, etc. Whatever.
If we continue to lose in the first round, what would you like to change next? Assistant trainer?

Keefe's already came out and called out the maturity of this core. Clearly he's not buying into the narrative of "we just ran into a hot goalie" for our loss against Columbus.

 

[IPS]

This past season the Leafs reduced scoring chances against, high danger scoring chances against and their expected goals against. The problem is their Gs had the worst save% in all categories. Goaltending was a bigger issue this past season than the D.

Is there any stats for who gave up the most breakaways and 2 on 1's? Leafs had to have been near the top of that with our high-flying offense first system where defensemen literally pinched at every opportunity.

 

[Dekes For Days]

the issue is the value wasn't there , Kadri was on very team friendly deal with term and shouldn't have been traded for a rental D (and i use the term D loosely because he really is only a d because that's where he line's up) and an extremely meh forward who we were already trying to dump

The value was easily there; people just vastly overrate Kadri's value in hindsight. Kadri had a decent AAV assuming he could get back to a 2nd line level, but he was coming off a disappointing season as a 3rd liner, a 2nd straight playoff suspension, and was a player that was heavily reliant on being carried on the PP to hit the production levels he had in the past.

Barrie was a top-4 right-handed defenseman, coming off an amazing playoffs as one of the best players on the team, and he came at an incredible cap hit with 50% retention. While he may have been a rental, we just brought on the original trade target on a good deal for free to replace him.

Kerfoot is a valuable center himself. He was younger, cheaper (with similar term), and brings similar ES impact. We are not trying to move him, let alone "dump" him.

 

[Machinae]

the issue is the value wasn't there , Kadri was on very team friendly deal with term left and shouldn't have been traded for a rental D (and i use the term D loosely because he really is only a d because that's where he line's up) and an extremely meh forward who we are already trying to dump

and if your tired abut reading this garbage then just admit it was a bad trade and stop making excuses for it

It was a bad move, admitting it doesn't put an end to the complaints. There doesn't need to be any excuses for it, the logic is right there to be interpreted by anyone with a brain as to why it was done.

But that's not the point, it's the constant harping on this one specific deal as some sort of reason to move off of this management group that is the garbage I'm speaking of. Every team makes bad moves but no one can shut up about Kadri because he sometimes feels like hitting people. No one ever takes into consideration the wins like signing John Tavares, bringing in Muzzin, drafting Sandin and Roberston, trading Kapanen for a kings ransom, especially when it doesn't fit their anti-glasses agenda. But don't worry, there's a mystery GM out there who will -never- make a bad trade or signing or draft just waiting to be swept up by the Leafs. The same group of detractors would -never- turn on the next GM as soon as they make a move that turned out to be the wrong one a year later after the benefit of hindsight. Not this fanbase!

 

[Dekes For Days]

I think players coming out and saying they aren’t engaged is pretty much a cause for concern no?

Except that didn't really happen. What happened was one player took responsibility for somewhere he felt he came up short, and said that he wasn't as engaged as he could have been physically, solely in the first game back, after 5 months, in front of no fans.

 

[justashadowof]

I'm not going to rehash the debate over how accurate HDSC against, CF% and all the other blogger stats that you can twist around to support a vast array of opinions around the league. Go ahead and blame goaltending for everything, it's your prerogative.

"Blogger stats". I'm using that.

 

[hotpaws]

It was a bad move, admitting it doesn't put an end to the complaints. There doesn't need to be any excuses for it, the logic is right there to be interpreted by anyone with a brain as to why it was done.

But that's not the point, it's the constant harping on this one specific deal as some sort of reason to move off of this management group that is the garbage I'm speaking of. Every team makes bad moves but no one can shut up about Kadri because he sometimes feels like hitting people. No one ever takes into consideration the wins like signing John Tavares, bringing in Muzzin, drafting Sandin and Roberston, trading Kapanen for a kings ransom, especially when it doesn't fit their anti-glasses agenda. But don't worry, there's a mystery GM out there who will -never- make a bad trade or signing or draft just waiting to be swept up by the Leafs. The same group of detractors would -never- turn on the next GM as soon as they make a move that turned out to be the wrong one a year later after the benefit of hindsight. Not this fanbase!

 

[Machinae]

I think what gets lost as well for a lot of folks is these one year commitment deals. They are literally zero commitment. A chance to prove yourself or be dumped as something better surfaces (you can never predict when/who those things are). It's exactly the problem with a Lou type strategy that often commits more dollars and term than should be (mainly to guys who don't deserve dollars and term).

Everyone is hung up on Barrie being a rental when the reality is that if he was a good fit and it was worth keeping him, then.. they could have? Re-signing him was within the realm of possibility.. But it wasn't a fit, and they walked away from it to sign TJ Brodie. Somehow this awful defenseman that wasn't worth Kadri's jock strap had multiple suitors in free agency and (allegedly) turned down higher dollars and term to sign with Edmonton. Hm.

 

[Duckrider]

I think players coming out and saying they aren’t engaged is pretty much a cause for concern no? Shutout in almost 3 games is also an issue.

But it’s always easier to blame someone else.
Bottom line, the leaders need to do better. When next playoff rolls around, they need to be a little more engaged and prepared to fight through hard check, adversity, wouldn’t you say? Ok shot generation. What are you going to do in that case. Have to make it harder for the goalie to see, drive deeper in the crease, etc. Whatever.
If we continue to lose in the first round, what would you like to change next? Assistant trainer?

What he said does not mean what you think it meant... After a bad game, one where you just can't seem to make things work, what he said is that. He wasnt playing video games behind the bench which or in the dressing room. It was a first game back and big players step up to the media and put the team on their back. Why are you soooo negative. He is our 2nd best player?

 

[Notsince67]

I think players coming out and saying they aren’t engaged is pretty much a cause for concern no? Shutout in almost 3 games is also an issue.

But it’s always easier to blame someone else.
Bottom line, the leaders need to do better. When next playoff rolls around, they need to be a little more engaged and prepared to fight through hard check, adversity, wouldn’t you say? Ok shot generation. What are you going to do in that case. Have to make it harder for the goalie to see, drive deeper in the crease, etc. Whatever.
If we continue to lose in the first round, what would you like to change next? Assistant trainer?

Everyone can have a bad game and I prefer players that can acknowledge it when ut happens. That first game saw the leafs shut out. Marner had the best possession on the team 5x5 which means that shots generated over all shots were the highest on the team. He was the only player who took responsibility and people in this forum love to blame him for the game.
CF% rel
Marner...20.75
Tavares...17.77
Nylander...12.93
Matthews....0.

Really cant stand the revisionist history. Players are slammed for taking a bullet for the team.
So yeah...everyone needs to play better. The leafs lost a game. But when you only get off 25 shots 5x5, the blame can be shared.

 

[hotpaws]

It was a bad move, admitting it doesn't put an end to the complaints. There doesn't need to be any excuses for it, the logic is right there to be interpreted by anyone with a brain as to why it was done.

But that's not the point, it's the constant harping on this one specific deal as some sort of reason to move off of this management group that is the garbage I'm speaking of. Every team makes bad moves but no one can shut up about Kadri because he sometimes feels like hitting people. No one ever takes into consideration the wins like signing John Tavares, bringing in Muzzin, drafting Sandin and Roberston, trading Kapanen for a kings ransom, especially when it doesn't fit their anti-glasses agenda. But don't worry, there's a mystery GM out there who will -never- make a bad trade or signing or draft just waiting to be swept up by the Leafs. The same group of detractors would -never- turn on the next GM as soon as they make a move that turned out to be the wrong one a year later after the benefit of hindsight. Not this fanbase!

last year we needed a rhd who can you know actually play D and make a first pass , also a replacement 3c if we traded Kadri , there was no logic in getting a Barrie type player and nothing type player in Kerfoot

and it's not just the Kadri deal it's more so completely f***ing our cap

also the goal isn't just to make moves but to make the team better and so far the team has regressed

the thing i've never understood is why people get so emotionally attached to who the GM is , Burke had a massive following and now the Dube has his peeps who go from thread to thread defending his every move

i have no idea what difference who our GM is as long as there doing a competent job , i mean what would it matter if our GM is Dubas/Burke/Lou/Yzerman or some recent grade from Waterloo math who specialized in advanced hockey metrics ? what enjoyment do people get from who the person running the team is ? it truly baffles me

 

[Notsince67]

they don't decide games on "shot generation" so if the team wasn't actually putting the puck in the net why do our expensive core get a free pass ?

Sure. Matthews had the most shifts 5x5 and the longest shifts and generated net zero chances with zero points. Go at it. Knock yourself out. He is still a great player and athletes are not perfect.

 

[Notsince67]

The Kadri trade is now Kadri for Kerfoot and Brodie. We get a reset and if Brodie is himself Dubas gets a win. I was thinking that trading for 1 year of Barrie was a mistake but it turns out to be genius. Imagine another 4 years of Barrie in Blue and White.

Glass half full kind of guy....i see

 

[justashadowof]

The Kadri trade is now Kadri for Kerfoot and Brodie. We get a reset and if Brodie is himself Dubas gets a win. I was thinking that trading for 1 year of Barrie was a mistake but it turns out to be genius. Imagine another 4 years of Barrie in Blue and White.

That's a legitimate positive spin to put on it. Brodie is without a doubt the most important addition of this off-season. Probably more important than Thornton, Spezza, Vesey and Boyd combined.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Somehow this awful defenseman that wasn't worth Kadri's jock strap had multiple suitors in free agency and (allegedly) turned down higher dollars and term to sign with Edmonton. Hm.

And now that he's not on the Leafs anymore, suddenly he's back to being a top-4 defenseman in the eyes of the large majority of HFBoards.

What is Tyson Barrie?