Post-Game Talk: The more things change…

[Behind Enemy Lines]

RNH played less than Perry last night 5 on 5 and the closest he came to a point last night was the assist he should have been credited with on Nashville's PP goal when he lobbed the puck straight at Saros and decided to change.

His special teams deployment padding out his TOI isn't especially remarkable; the coach isn't going to pull those minutes from him 5 games in, even if he's been actively detrimental to both. His "real production" is 1 PP point, so it's worth looking at his advanced stats and starting to ask why he's so much worse than literally everybody else on the team other than Janmark.

And yet this head coach trusts his play with deployment decisions and responsibilities that carry over from every rotating coach this team has had over a decade. Of course the coach isn't going to change his deployment responsibilities five games in because the PK issue is largely inconsistent goaltending. The player is valued for utility including to move positionally to help the two super elites kickstart their game on The Stacked Line. His line mates are running zeroes across the board and trying to find their own games. None are generating shots and getting much of anything done.

A comparison to Hyman's game has little merit given their deployment and usage along with the situational play on ice and line mates. Both need to be better and will be. They've earned their coach's trust and in Nugent Hopkin's case he brings a lot of utility and versatility when not producing at the glory end of the ice.

This team was rocking an EV 2.5% shooting and just now over 5% following this game. The issue is larger than one player. And more concerning is the team's goal suppression which was awful in large part due to leaky goaltending. Both will normalize and the issues are team based.

 

[Louis Cypher]

Waiting for BrobergSpeed to remind us McLeod scored tonight

And Jesse too!

 

[syz]

And yet this head coach trusts his play with deployment decisions and responsibilities that carry over from every rotating coach this team has had over a decade. Of course the coach isn't going to change his deployment responsibilities five games in because the PK issue is largely inconsistent goaltending. The player is valued for utility including to move positionally to help the two super elites kickstart their game on The Stacked Line. His line mates are running zeroes across the board and trying to find their own games. None are generating shots and getting much of anything done.

A comparison to Hyman's game has little merit given their deployment and usage along with the situational play on ice and line mates. Both need to be better and will be. They've earned their coach's trust and in Nugent Hopkin's case he brings a lot of utility and versatility when not producing at the glory end of the ice.

Just because you keep saying a thing doesn't make it true. RNH has been bad at all ends of the ice, don't know why you're continuing to harp on his lack of offensive production. Historically, yes, RNH has brought a lot of utility and versatility. He has not done that yet this season and it is concerning. He is failing at every end of the ice through 5 games, regardless of who he's been on the ice with.

The coaches trusting him with those deployments and responsibilities pretty clearly has more to do with history than his current play, and that trust will end up being a mistake if he doesn't turn literally every aspect of his game around.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Just because you keep saying a thing doesn't make it true. RNH has been bad at all ends of the ice, don't know why you're continuing to harp on his lack of offensive production. Historically, yes, RNH has brought a lot of utility and versatility. He has not done that yet this season and it is concerning. He is failing at every end of the ice through 5 games, regardless of who he's on the ice with.

The coaches trusting him with those deployments and responsibilities pretty clearly has more to do with history than his current play, and that trust will end up being a mistake if he doesn't turn literally every aspect of his game around.

It's not what I'm saying. It's how his coach deploys and uses his players. There's significant earned trust in which a coach won't panic move. Just a fact. So a Hyman Nugent Hopkins comparison is flawed for all the reasons I've already laid out. He's been moved to 2C to help the super elites get their game going and Hyman is the player who rides shotgun in that deployment. Even with that ice time Hyman still hasn't found his game with 0 points. Arvy who was brought in to run with Draisaitl has 0 points. Podkolzen's trying to reinvent his game as a bottom six energy player has 0 points.

The list of players who are meeting expectation is like also zero. Hard to pin the team's malaise on one player when no one has established their game. The head coach is doing the same old break in case of emergency whipping up The Stack Line and its overuse trying to lurch its super elites and team to find its underperformance across the roster.

 

[Louis Cypher]

Perry deserves some props too, really started all the chaos that caused our 2nd goal with that nice dangle from behind the net, +2 tonight.

Guys seems to have got a second wind. He looks great. That 4th line is pushing the play. Ryan has played well but looking forward to Plilp taking that spot.

 

[syz]

It's not what I'm saying. It's how his coach deploys and uses his players. There's significant earned trust in which a coach won't panic move. Just a fact. So a Hyman Nugent Hopkins comparison is flawed for all the reasons I've already laid out. He's been moved to 2C to help the super elites get their game going and Hyman is the player who rides shotgun in that deployment. Even with that ice time Hyman still hasn't found his game with 0 points. Arvy who was brought in to run with Draisaitl has 0 points. Podkolzen's trying to reinvent his game as a bottom six energy player has 0 points.

The list of players who are meeting expectation is like also zero. Hard to pin the team's malaise on one player when no one has established their game. The head coach is doing the same old break in case of emergency whipping up The Stack Line and its overuse trying to lurch its super elites and team to find its underperformance across the roster.

"Earned trust" is also what resulted in Dermott and Emberson being played ahead of Stetcher. Just because a coach favors what he's familiar with doesn't mean it's the correct decision, and it certainly doesn't do anything to compensate for or justify RNH's terrible play in every zone through the first 5 games of the season--terrible play that extends beyond his current stint with Podkolzin and Arvidsson (who nonetheless have the same number of even strength points as him this season, with Arvidsson at the very least being a key contributor to an ES goal last night....)

 

[DavidHasselhoffsFist]

How dare you embarrass me like this…..

Punishment. You will join me in watching Red Sun Rising, and drinking whiskey

View attachment 918176

 

[K1984]

RNH played less than Perry last night 5 on 5 and the closest he came to a point last night was the assist he should have been credited with on Nashville's PP goal when he lobbed the puck straight at Saros and decided to change.

His special teams deployment padding out his TOI isn't especially remarkable; the coach isn't going to pull those minutes from him 5 games in, even if he's been actively detrimental to both. His "real production" is 1 PP point, so it's worth looking at his advanced stats and starting to ask why he's so much worse than literally everybody else on the team other than Janmark.

Despite the team's inability to finish chances early on this season, they've at least been creating significantly more chances for than against. The only exceptions are RNH and Janmark, whose numbers are in the dumpster.

Eye test matches as well.

He is in a space where he has the bad, bad habit of just throwing the puck away when he doesn't have options, and it's never to a safe place. There was one sequence where he had the puck just inside the defensive blue line with nobody around him. Instead of flipping the puck, punting the puck, skating the puck, reversing to his D, ANYTHING, he just limply passes it in the middle of 4 Predators players and watches them stream in the other way.

He is a guy that absolutely has to have his feet moving aggressively at all times to be effective. He falls into stretches where he just seems to stand around, and he is a dangerous player in a bad way when this occurs because he tries to compensate for it by making cute passes that almost always result in turnovers. His comfort zone is to slow the game down, but that renders him completely useless. Although nobody on the PP is playing well at the moment, I'm not so sure that he isn't a lot of the problem. Enter zone, flip to Nuge, Nuge sits on it, then either turns to over on the wall or throws it away because he waited too long. His game has to speed up massively.

I am a big Nuge fan, and consider him critical to both special teams units in the big picture. However, when he's playing bad he is REALLY bad, and that's what we're seeing now. Easily been the worst Oiler through 5 games.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

"Earned trust" is also what resulted in Dermott and Emberson being played ahead of Stetcher. Just because a coach favors what he's familiar with doesn't mean it's the correct decision, and it certainly doesn't do anything to compensate for or justify RNH's terrible play in every zone through the first 5 games of the season--terrible play that extends beyond his current stint with Podkolzin and Arvidsson (who nonetheless have the same number of even strength points as him this season, with Arvidsson at the very least being a key contributor to an ES goal last night....)

That's again apples and bananas. Nugent Hopkins deployment and usage is a decade long. Trust and confidence in him enables this coach to follow past coach decisions to run McDavid and McWinger Draisaitl. The second line to start the year also wasn't generating much and that was with Skinner and Arvy running shotgun with Draisaitl. Again, the production results are poor for the reconfigured second line wingers. And across the board.

They view Stetcher as a #7 dman which has been his usage model on good teams. They undervalued the difficulty to fill 2RD minutes and responsibilities. Small sample guy Emberton got first shot and clearly needs to establish himself as a 3RD with consistent deployment and managed competition. Dermott's versatility got him a job and experiment as well on his off-shooting side. Default is Stetcher who struggles with home plate defending with limited size and range. They look to be managing that with increasing Kulak's late game deployment. Very clear this coaching staff is in experiment mode with a platoon of journeymen and an unproven to band-aid their way until trade deadline... though that's not a guaranteer either.

Rush to judgement on one player with a decade of proven deployment and usage with five games when no one has been going offensively and the team was sinking in goal suppression with leaky goaltending distorting their results. Knoblauch is a modern era coach who uses information to plan his deployment and usage.

 

[syz]

Eye test matches as well.

He is in a space where he has the bad, bad habit of just throwing the puck away when he doesn't have options, and it's never to a safe place. There was one sequence where he had the puck just inside the defensive blue line with nobody around him. Instead of flipping the puck, punting the puck, skating the puck, reversing to his D, ANYTHING, he just limply passes it in the middle of 4 Predators players and watches them stream in the other way.

He is a guy that absolutely has to have his feet moving aggressively at all times to be effective. He falls into stretches where he just seems to stand around, and he is a dangerous player in a bad way when this occurs because he tries to compensate for it by making cute passes that almost always result in turnovers. His comfort zone is to slow the game down, but that renders him completely useless. Although nobody on the PP is playing well at the moment, I'm not so sure that he isn't a lot of the problem. Enter zone, flip to Nuge, Nuge sits on it, then either turns to over on the wall or throws it away because he waited too long. His game has to speed up massively.

I am a big Nuge fan, and consider him critical to both special teams units in the big picture. However, when he's playing bad he is REALLY bad, and that's what we're seeing now. Easily been the worst Oiler through 5 games.

Nuge being as bad as he's been on the power play is standing out because 1) opposing teams are crowding Bouchard now, and 2) McDavid does not appear to be a shooting threat again so far this year. He's getting the least attention out there but somehow can't stop fumbling it.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The preds with 6 goals in 3 games are the most dangerous team offensively?

On paper they would be. Only the Jets are in that convo. Only 3 games have been played so hard to know how much scoring Preds will get but they have some dangerous players that shoot the puck well. You disagree?

 

[Drivesaitl]

It's not what I'm saying. It's how his coach deploys and uses his players. There's significant earned trust in which a coach won't panic move. Just a fact. So a Hyman Nugent Hopkins comparison is flawed for all the reasons I've already laid out. He's been moved to 2C to help the super elites get their game going and Hyman is the player who rides shotgun in that deployment. Even with that ice time Hyman still hasn't found his game with 0 points. Arvy who was brought in to run with Draisaitl has 0 points. Podkolzen's trying to reinvent his game as a bottom six energy player has 0 points.

The list of players who are meeting expectation is like also zero. Hard to pin the team's malaise on one player when no one has established their game. The head coach is doing the same old break in case of emergency whipping up The Stack Line and its overuse trying to lurch its super elites and team to find its underperformance across the roster.

I don't think the critique of RNH last couple games is warranted. Drai struggled immensely with RV on his line and now expecting Nuge to center RV and Podz is a ridiculous expectation. Thats a lot to carry. Neither of the wingers are topsix at this point. Neither of these guys are going. Podz by my take shouldn't even be in the NHL. Sure theres some try there and he hits. He botches any play that comes to him.

Nuge is paying the price right now so that we can park the uber talented Henrique on a third line and get easier matchups for that line. The 2nd line is in for some tough sledding. Not Nuge's fault.

 

[K1984]

Nuge being as bad as he's been on the power play is standing out because 1) opposing teams are crowding Bouchard now, and 2) McDavid does not appear to be a shooting threat again so far this year. He's getting the least attention out there but somehow can't stop fumbling it.

It's been frustrating to watch, because teams crowding Bouchard should be considered a good thing in theory because it would open the seam over to Leon again. However, to make that a real threat you need to make plays fast off the wall below the hash marks, and he simply isn't capable of doing that for whatever reason.

The team went from frustratingly forcing pucks to Leon when plays weren't there to now frustratingly forcing pucks to Bouchard when plays aren't there. It's like they have to be slapped in the face with it for a month before they realize what they need to adjust.

I don't think the critique of RNH last couple games is warranted. Drai struggled immensely with RV on his line and now expecting Nuge to center RV and Podz is a ridiculous expectation. Thats a lot to carry. Neither of the wingers are topsix at this point. Neither of these guys are going. Podz by my take shouldn't even be in the NHL. Sure theres some try there and he hits. He botches any play that comes to him.

Nuge is paying the price right now so that we can park the uber talented Henrique on a third line and get easier matchups for that line. The 2nd line is in for some tough sledding. Not Nuge's fault.

Nuge has sucked on every single line he's played on this year, in every formation. Not everything is the fault of your pre-determined whipping boys each season.

It's ok to be a fan of a player (I am of Nuge) and also accurately recognize when they haven't been good enough, and he hasn't been even close.

 

[Drivesaitl]

McDavid would have 8 points by now if Hyman and Bouchard would pull their craniums out of their posteriors. Bouchard has fired it into bodies or sticks or shot it wide about 90% of the time. Hyman I can’t figure out what’s wrong, other than his shot seems baby shit soft.

Booch as well has been critiqued a lot here. I dunno, he's making a lot of good plays hit a couple posts this season, has a goal and had an excellent jump play yesterday where Drai fed him to go in on a mini break. Almost scored. He's playing decently. Seems as soon as a player here reaches star echelon the expectations are huge. Anybody would want this Bouchard.It'll come and one reason production is low is the whole PP sucking. Booch has actually been moving puck around decently on PP. Nobody seems to be sharp on PP.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It's been frustrating to watch, because teams crowding Bouchard should be considered a good thing in theory because it would open the seam over to Leon again. However, to make that a real threat you need to make plays fast off the wall below the hash marks, and he simply isn't capable of doing that for whatever reason.

The team went from frustratingly forcing pucks to Leon when plays weren't there to now frustratingly forcing pucks to Bouchard when plays aren't there. It's like they have to be slapped in the face with it for a month before they realize what they need to adjust.



Nuge has sucked on every single line he's played on this year, in every formation. Not everything is the fault of your pre-determined whipping boys each season.

It's ok to be a fan of a player (I am of Nuge) and also accurately recognize when they haven't been good enough, and he hasn't been even close.

Nuge has made a lot of good plays out there. He doesn't have strong wingers right now, that just is the case. Podz other than some hitting isn't that good. He's stripped some pucks and worked hard but he has nothing going with his shot or playmaking. As far as Booch the reason the PP is struggling is all the top producers, Drai, McD, and Hyman really struggling. None of them are taking passes well and they are not getting best shots off. A lot of fumbling puck. Drai looks really awkward so far. Drais' best play of the season though was that hold sequence where he waited for the perfect moment to feed Booch as he broke free on goal. That was a magic play, but not a goal. Leon isn't cashing from his spot and thats been a problem stemming from last season. His goal totals starting to go down as teams either adjust or he struggles with the shot mechanics. Booch has been pretty much what he' supposed to be.

Also just to mention my "predetermined whipping boys" as you call it in last couple respective seasons were Yamamoto, and Connor Brown, both of whom had unremarkable seasons here. Brown is better this year and you'll note there being no criticisms of him this season. He was bad last season. RV is getting nothing done. He's a player that looks busy a lot of the time but he falls over in a stiff wind. Podz and RV are the worst two that we've put in topsix thus far this season and Nuge has them both. Kind of not fair to Nuge.

 

[AM]

I don't think the critique of RNH last couple games is warranted. Drai struggled immensely with RV on his line and now expecting Nuge to center RV and Podz is a ridiculous expectation. Thats a lot to carry. Neither of the wingers are topsix at this point. Neither of these guys are going. Podz by my take shouldn't even be in the NHL. Sure theres some try there and he hits. He botches any play that comes to him.

Nuge is paying the price right now so that we can park the uber talented Henrique on a third line and get easier matchups for that line. The 2nd line is in for some tough sledding. Not Nuge's fault.

He is being punished for drai not being able to run a line. He has been in the situation before he just needs to get his head around it.

 

[K1984]

Nuge has made a lot of good plays out there. He doesn't have strong wingers right now, that just is the case. Podz other than some hitting isn't that good. He's stripped some pucks and worked hard but he has nothing going with his shot or playmaking. As far as Booch the reason the PP is struggling is all the top producers, Drai, McD, and Hyman really struggling. None of them are taking passes well and they are not getting best shots off. A lot of fumbling puck. Drai looks really awkward so far. Drais' best play of the season though was that hold sequence where he waited for the perfect moment to feed Booch as he broke free on goal. That was a magic play, but not a goal. Leon isn't cashing from his spot and thats been a problem stemming from last season. His goal totals starting to go down as teams either adjust or he struggles with the shot mechanics. Booch has been pretty much what he' supposed to be.

Must have missed them, because I see a lot of skating in quick sand, floater passes that turn over, and a general nonchalance in his play. Every stat, traditional and analytical, and the eye test back that up.

He basically didn't play 5v5 last night, and probably for good reason. His wingers can't be blamed for his ass play over the entirety of the season. Every other player that has started like shit has shown at least some form of life, something to lean on and build up from. He's the only guy left that has literally done nothing at any point.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He is being punished for drai not being able to run a line. He has been in the situation before he just needs to get his head around it.

This is fair to an extent this season. Drai has looked clumsy, slow, and uncharacteristically fumbling to make plays. For some reason he and Skinner didn't work out thus far. But RV has done nothing with two different centers now.

Must have missed them, because I see a lot of skating in quick sand, floater passes that turn over, and a general nonchalance in his play. Every stat, traditional and analytical, and the eye test back that up.

He basically didn't play 5v5 last night, and probably for good reason. His wingers can't be blamed for his ass play over the entirety of the season. Every other player that has started like shit has shown at least some form of life, something to lean on and build up from. He's the only guy left that has literally done nothing at any point.

Other posters can convey that I'm hard on Nuge when warranted. He was playing well in preseason and seemed to have a lot of sauce on his shot. He got belted in first game of season, and then another play where I think he lost some teeth. Could be something like that going on with him. He's made some skill plays and has gone to net on a few instances. Nothing working for him thus far but we know he'll have productive segments. Nuge has also been one of our best pk players.

 

[K1984]

Also just to mention my "predetermined whipping boys" as you call it in last couple respective seasons were Yamamoto, and Connor Brown, both of whom had unremarkable seasons here. Brown is better this year and you'll note there being no criticisms of him this season. He was bad last season. RV is getting nothing done. He's a player that looks busy a lot of the time but he falls over in a stiff wind. Podz and RV are the worst two that we've put in topsix thus far this season and Nuge has them both. Kind of not fair to Nuge.

Well you did take some effort to invent a narrative that Brown was somehow bad in the playoffs last year, and have just mysteriously gone quiet after deciding that Skinner was a failure on October 9. Ditto for Perry, where a narrative was invented about how he hasn't technically shot a puck in the net in order to dismiss his play, despite being objectively strong to start the year. Now the failure of established players like Draisaitl and RNH are exclusively the problem of another Drive target - Arvidsson.

That's nice that you've backed off Brown for this year though. So far.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I don't think the critique of RNH last couple games is warranted. Drai struggled immensely with RV on his line and now expecting Nuge to center RV and Podz is a ridiculous expectation. Thats a lot to carry. Neither of the wingers are topsix at this point. Neither of these guys are going. Podz by my take shouldn't even be in the NHL. Sure theres some try there and he hits. He botches any play that comes to him.

Nuge is paying the price right now so that we can park the uber talented Henrique on a third line and get easier matchups for that line. The 2nd line is in for some tough sledding. Not Nuge's fault.

Fair points. I fully admit Nugent Hopkin's hasn't been very good along with all returners and new guys on a deeply experienced returning team. But he is a trusted crackfiller as you say moving into 2C to help the team jolt its roster wide malaise with the Stack Line. The premise of discussion I find faulty in comparing Nugent Hopkins and Hyman's deployment and usage. Strange comparison to make when looking at position versatility, deployment and line mates with a move done to cajole the team wide slumber.

I was actually hopeful to see a Skinner - Nugent Hopkins - Arvy line to leverage Nuge's distributor game with a finisher and hard ice net front guy. Podkolzen seemed a stretch to jump from 4th line to 2nd line. Great to see Skinner find chemistry with Henrique who has brought stability to 3C.

The PP is also struggle to find its game. Last night's Predators team was super aggressive disrupting within neutral ice and extending into Oilers zone with killers to take away McDavid's time and space to wind up. Bouch hasn't found his game with puck management as the critical second touch option on PP. They utilized a diamond PK format at times as well which the Oilers puck management guys content to wheel around in low danger ice and over pass while not generating shots. Lots of poor passes to go around with the whole group. When Bouch gets going the constipated PP will start to produce.

The team malaise is bigger than one player. Last night was a huge win with goaltending holding up and some solid goal suppression work from Ekholm, Nurse and Kulak. Two W's in a row with a team shooting 5% is a big positive. That's the big picture here.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Well you did take some effort to invent a narrative that Brown was somehow bad in the playoffs last year, and have just mysteriously gone quiet after deciding that Skinner was a failure on October 9. Ditto for Perry, where a narrative was invented about how he hasn't technically shot a puck in the net, despite being objectively strong to star the year. Now the failure of established players like Draisaitl and RNH are exclusively the problem of another Drive target - Arvidsson.

That's nice that you've backed off Brown for this year though. So far.

Brown has been much better. My posts on him reflecting that. Same with Jeff Skinner, who had a questionable season last season, and was a ghost in preseason, its hard to know how a player will come in. Skinner has had a habit in career of having good or bad seasons. I'm glad he's ramping it up here. I know the guy will score, he has a willngness to go to areas and get shots off. But his work rate so far has been impressive, and more than I expected.

But just to feature that you never know what you're getting even with a premium scorer Stamkos was invisible last night except on the PP. So far in Nashville he's not bringing anything EV. I suspect he gets off his ass and does something but until then fans are right to be questioning him in Nashville.

I was wrong on the Brown comment on playoffs last year. Relooked at it all and I fully concede that. Brown was decent mostly in playoffs.

My point though is when I'm hard on a player in regular season its usually because they aren't doing much. Yamamoto for instance barely being an NHL player and was my "whipping boy" for years but perhaps warranted.

 

[tardigrade81]

Yes!!!!

I just got chills. I will watch this bad boy tonight after my wife goes to bed (she will ruin it by complaining how bad it is) lol