HF Habs: The Martin St Louis Thread

[Mrb1p]

MSL has been pretty clear from day 1 that what he cares about is the decision making process that led to the mistake over the results of the mistake. Matheson's mistakes are mostly related to execution, he whiffs on a pass, or bobbles the puck and turns it over, etc... And we've seen Xhekaj make those same mistakes and not get punished. When he does get punished for his mistakes it's always because the decision making process was bad like chasing a hit.

Also no coach in the NHL has ever run what fans would consider a pure meritocracy where everyone is treated exactly equal. So if MSL is a bad coach for not doing it, then every coach in NHL history is also a bad coach and being a bad coach loses all meaning.

Oh yeah, I'm sure pinches at the absolute worst moment or behind the back passes while he's the last man back are good decision making.

Do you guys even think before posting this stuff ?

 

[Sorinth]

Oh yeah, I'm sure pinches at the absolute worst moment or behind the back passes while he's the last man back are good decision making.

Do you guys even think before posting this stuff ?

I seem to remember Hutson making a pretty terrible drop pass not too long ago, should he have been benched in the name of fairness? Or is it ok for MSL to play favourites so long as it's someone we like.

And speaking of thinking before posting, maybe look in the mirror.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Isn't Roy needed for Laval playoffs ? why is he a healthy scratch?

Don't know. But I'd have liked to have seen a lot more of him this year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Worked for the Habs in 2021 with COVID.

They fired Martin St Louis in 2021?

Im not advocating for them to fire him now, but to say coaching isnt a problem is wrong.

Indeed it is.

 

[Mrb1p]

I seem to remember Hutson making a pretty terrible drop pass not too long ago, should he have been benched in the name of fairness? Or is it ok for MSL to play favourites so long as it's someone we like.

And speaking of thinking before posting, maybe look in the mirror.

Damn pretty crazy uno reverse card you hit me with.

Players make mistakes, even great ones, Hutson makes 1 mistake every 5 games and makes 55 good plays a game. Matheson makes 4-5 egregrious ones a game and makes 4-5 good plays a game. He's a net negative to a net neutral at best, its not the same at all.

They fired Martin St Louis in 2021?

Indeed it is.

They fired their coach but it was in jest, the fact is MSL can't get them ready for a game, plays favorites (Or actually plays hate-the-most), won't make in-game adjustements and keeps getting outcoached early in the game (which plays into the not being ready for games.)

This is all coaching related. Monty or Dobes standing on their heads for 40 shots and the Dvorak line scoring every game isn't coaching, it's luck.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They fired their coach but it was in jest, the fact is MSL can't get them ready for a game, plays favorites (Or actually plays hate-the-most), won't make in-game adjustements and keeps getting outcoached early in the game (which plays into the not being ready for games.)

MSL has a team - that everyone expected to be among the absolute worst clubs in the league - in a playoff spot. He’s done an amazing job developing players and they love playing for him.

Show me a coach who doesn’t have favourites man… We’ve overperformed this year. A year in which we had injuries, a dysfunctional second line, a D with a ton of holes… the man deserves credit.

This is all coaching related. Monty or Dobes standing on their heads for 40 shots and the Dvorak line scoring every game isn't coaching, it's luck.

Monty and Dobes get shit on every game. Where have you been man?

And I love how ‘luck’ is attributed to stuff that’s working. That’s freaking hilarious.

Name me a better coach we’ve had in the past 30 years. I’ll wait.

 

[Mrb1p]

MSL has a team that everyone expected to be among the absolute worst clubs in the league in a playoff spot. He’s done an amazing job developing players and they love playing for him.

Show me a coach who doesn’t have favourites man… We’ve overperformed this year. A year in which we had injuries, a dysfunctional second line, a D with a ton of holes… the man deserves credit.

Monty and Dobes get shit on every game. Where have you been man?

And I love how ‘luck’ is attributed to stuff that’s working. That’s freaking hilarious.m

Name me a better coach we’ve had in the past 30 years. I’ll wait.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, that is a serious hockey fan and follows the Habs expected them to be a bottom-team, even the GM said they'd be in the hunt, Nick Suzuki himself said the goals was the playoffs.

I don't think MSL has favorites per say, he just has players he absolutely despise, notably players that have incredible natural talent but aren't the best workers Laine, Xhekaj and Roy.

Jacques Martin was better, but that's not really an excuse, our coaches have absolutely sucked.

 

[HabbyGuy]

Still is despite Suzuki and Hutson.

Lets not forget this team made the SCF with a Junior coach like Ducharme. Success is not necessarily a constant in the quality of coaching.

Silly, I wonder if Suzuki or Hutson hadn't evolved and developed as they have, or had the amazing seasons they've had, to help push this team forward and not stagnate, who would have took all the blame for that?

You all can't speak out of both sides of your mouths on this. Truth is this team has exceeded all expectations despite all the roster challenges and adversity it's had to face.

Marty has kept this team together, has instilled a culture of perseverance and belief in itself and has them on the cusp of a playoff spot way ahead of schedule.

At this point people who refuse to give him the proper credit he deserves are quite frankly lost on this subject.

 

[Mrb1p]

Silly, I wonder if Suzuki or Hutson hadn't evolved and developed as they have, or had the amazing seasons they've had, to help push this team forward and not stagnate, who would have took all the blame for that?

You all can't speak out of both sides of your mouths on this. Truth is this team has exceeded all expectations despits all the roster challenges and adversity it's had to face.

Marty has kept this team together, has instilled a culture of perseverance and belief in itself and has them on the cusp of a playoff spot way ahead of schedule.

At this point people who refuse to give him the proper credit he deserves are quite frankly lost on this subject.

I don't think MSL is a bad coach to develop players. Notice I've never once said this. I also don't blame the system.

A coach can be good and bad at certain things. Turns out, he isn't good at all at some very crucial bench coach things.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, that is a serious hockey fan and follows the Habs expected them to be a bottom-team, even the GM said they'd be in the hunt, Nick Suzuki himself said the goals was the playoffs.

You are flat out wrong on this.

Many of us here thought we’d see some improvements but miss the playoffs. By and large though, we were seen as a bottom ten team - many saw us as bottom five.

ESPN: NHL Power Rankings: Way-too-early edition for the 2024-25 season

The Athletic had us 28th.

Sporting News: NHL predictions 2024-25: Final standings, playoff projections, Stanley Cup pick | Sporting News Canada

TSN: TSN Hockey Season Preview: Oilers remain favourites to reach Stanley Cup Final | TSN

Sportsnet - not a single analyst has us in the playoffs: Sportsnet NHL Insider predictions for 2024-25 season

I don't think MSL has favorites per se, he just has players he absolutely despise, notably players that have incredible natural talent but aren't the best workers Laine, Xhekaj and Roy.

I don’t think he despises anyone. If a guy doesn’t make the lineup it doesn’t mean hatred. We’re simply a rebuilding team that’s competitive for roster spots.

As for X he played most of the season over Struble who’s a really good young blueliner. Does he hate Strubel too?

Jacques Martin was better, but that's not really an excuse, our coaches have absolutely sucked.

Jacques Martin? The guy who loved Darche? The guy who loved boring trap hockey? You’d rather him coaching this team?

No thank you.

 

[HabbyGuy]

I don't think MSL is a bad coach to develop players. Notice I've never once said this. I also don't blame the system.

A coach can be good and bad at certain things. Turns out, he isn't good at all at some very crucial bench coach things.

Not one coach is perfect or above criticism, even Scotty Bowman would take flack and hate on this board if he were behind the bench, it comes with the job description, especially in Montreal. But to ignore the expansive good that Marty has done with this team through this rebuild and have them where they are, and then suggest they're here in spite of him is utterly ridiculous.

This team's culture, growth, resilience and fortitude, is a reflection of it's coach, and we're only getting started, even better days are ahead.

Good news is he can work on the X's and O's as he also evolves, but all the other stuff he's already accomplished above is very hard to duplicate. He's smashed the task that was put before him by this management team when he was hired with flying colours, the proof is in the pudding.

I can't recall this organization being perched in a better position going forward in a very long time.

Can you?

Can any of you? Be honest.

 

[habdynasty]

Should be nominated for coach of the year.

 

[Ezpz]

Should be nominated for coach of the year.

He's probably going to win, no other coach turned around such a roster from last year. Maybe Mongomery but usually coaches who don't coach the entire season don't win. And St. Louis weren't expected to be a bottom 5 team either.

The rest of the playoffs are pretty much everyone's predicted lists except maybe Ottawa.

I guess Washington overachieved too but in general their roster changed a great deal from last season and they still made the playoffs last year.

Just looking at the last twenty winners MSL is basically the recipe. Mongomery got it in 22-23 for Boston setting the points record but every other winner is "most improved team by points from previous season".

Which is a farce but that's the way it's always been. Scotty Bowman only winning twice in his career shows that.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

Matheson doesn't play in the toughest of situation, I've debunked this a million times. Guhle, Carrier and Hutson play tougher minutes at 5V5 and more minutes at 5V5. Yes Matheson plays a lot, but a lot of those minutes is because he gets hemmed in for 2m shifts +. Every single game he has 2-3 of those shifts. He plays less shifts on average than all three above, but somehow plays 5-6 more minutes a game.

He has more leash because he's a Quartexx client and Hughes loves him like his son.

What a load of garbage, if he was constantly getting hemmed in he would be a defensive liability, getting stuck in your own zone would lead to more goals but his +/- is perfectly reasonable. He gets more time because he can be used in many different situations and is a reliable d-man. He also provides good offense and is a good puck mover.

It's not some grand conspiracy, take off the tin foil hat.

 

[CzarDemidov]

He's probably going to win, no other coach turned around such a roster from last year. Maybe Mongomery but usually coaches who don't coach the entire season don't win. And St. Louis weren't expected to be a bottom 5 team either.

The rest of the playoffs are pretty much everyone's predicted lists except maybe Ottawa.

I guess Washington overachieved too but in general their roster changed a great deal from last season and they still made the playoffs last year.

Just looking at the last twenty winners MSL is basically the recipe. Mongomery got it in 22-23 for Boston setting the points record but every other winner is "most improved team by points from previous season".

Which is a farce but that's the way it's always been. Scotty Bowman only winning twice in his career shows that.

The Habs were garbage for 30 games to start the season. I’m not sure if it’s fair to award him when WSH and other teams have been consistent and dominant all season long.

 

[Ezpz]

The Habs were garbage for 30 games to start the season. I’m not sure if it’s fair to award him when WSH and other teams have been consistent and dominant all season long.

Washington are like 15 points above last season with 5 games left. Habs are 11 but went from second last to playoffs. 8th to 1st or 15th to 8th. What's more common or worthy of praise?

I haven't seen many Jack Adams winners win just for being a contender. If that's the criteria Winnipeg probably have a better claim since they're probably winning the President's trophy.

Especially since the key lifting in Washington compared to last season is coming from the guys the acquired last summer, if anything they should win GM of the year rather than coach.

Marty took the exact same roster that finished second last, save Laine, and made the playoffs. Or if you think Laine is a massive difference maker, that kind of means the losing at the start of the season because of Laine being injured doesn't really matter. But even then last year had Monahan who is a better player than Laine. So we actually made the playoffs with a weaker roster based on the strength of Marty's development of the young guns.

Besides, losing Justin Barron was a huge blow compared to gaining Lane Hutson.

 

[Mrb1p]

What a load of garbage, if he was constantly getting hemmed in he would be a defensive liability, getting stuck in your own zone would lead to more goals but his +/- is perfectly reasonable. He gets more time because he can be used in many different situations and is a reliable d-man. He also provides good offense and is a good puck mover.

It's not some grand conspiracy, take off the tin foil hat.

He has the worst 5v5 +/- on the team and the worst GF%.

 

[dauv]

MSL has a team - that everyone expected to be among the absolute worst clubs in the league - in a playoff spot. He’s done an amazing job developing players and they love playing for him.

Show me a coach who doesn’t have favourites man… We’ve overperformed this year. A year in which we had injuries, a dysfunctional second line, a D with a ton of holes… the man deserves credit.

Monty and Dobes get shit on every game. Where have you been man?

And I love how ‘luck’ is attributed to stuff that’s working. That’s freaking hilarious.

Name me a better coach we’ve had in the past 30 years. I’ll wait.

Randy Cunneyworth, you're welcome.

Unfortunately he only spoke English, we couldn't see his hall of fame coaching career blossom in Montreal.

 

[dauv]

He's probably going to win, no other coach turned around such a roster from last year. Maybe Mongomery but usually coaches who don't coach the entire season don't win. And St. Louis weren't expected to be a bottom 5 team either.

The rest of the playoffs are pretty much everyone's predicted lists except maybe Ottawa.

I guess Washington overachieved too but in general their roster changed a great deal from last season and they still made the playoffs last year.

Just looking at the last twenty winners MSL is basically the recipe. Mongomery got it in 22-23 for Boston setting the points record but every other winner is "most improved team by points from previous season".

Which is a farce but that's the way it's always been. Scotty Bowman only winning twice in his career shows that.

doubt it, would be very difficult for him to win. Should be nominated though

Washington coach Carbery probably wins it

MSL and Dean Evason are nominees but don't win (maybe Montgomery or Arniel)

 

[salbutera]

Should be nominated for coach of the year.

Best record in NHL since 4-Nations… can’t envision a scenario how MSL isn’t nominated

 

[Sorinth]

Damn pretty crazy uno reverse card you hit me with.

Players make mistakes, even great ones, Hutson makes 1 mistake every 5 games and makes 55 good plays a game. Matheson makes 4-5 egregrious ones a game and makes 4-5 good plays a game. He's a net negative to a net neutral at best, its not the same at all.

Which is just a lie you tell yourself to justify your obviously bad takes.

Hell the NHL stats on giveaways has Matheson at 3.24 GvA/60, Hutson at 3.42, and Xhekaj at 3.45. So you clearly aren't watching the same games everyone else is.

 

[Paradoxe]

Oh yeah, I'm sure pinches at the absolute worst moment or behind the back passes while he's the last man back are good decision making.

Do you guys even think before posting this stuff ?

Do you?

 

[Mrb1p]

Which is just a lie you tell yourself to justify your obviously bad takes.

Hell the NHL stats on giveaways has Matheson at 3.24 GvA/60, Hutson at 3.42, and Xhekaj at 3.45. So you clearly aren't watching the same games everyone else is.

Giveaway/Takeaway are not reliable stats.

 

[Sorinth]

Giveaway/Takeaway are not reliable stats.

Even so if Matheson was making 4-5 terrible giveways every single game and Hutson only one every 5 games then it would show up.

 

[Mrb1p]

Even so if Matheson was making 4-5 terrible giveways every single game and Hutson only one every 5 games then it would show up.

Surely shows up in every meaningful stats.

Matheson is our worse 5v5 D for
GF%
GA
SF%
2 Minutes + shifts
Giveaways
Defensive zone giveaways (Leads by 20 on Hutson.)
2nd to last for p/60
Missed shot %
Blocked shot %
2ND in on-ice shot attempts agaisnt/60
He ranks above Carrier, Guhle and Hutson in zero 5v5 metric that would make him seem like a better player.
He ranks below all three in QoC
He ranks below Carrier and Guhle in deployment.
He plays less 5v5 than all three.