The Management Thread | Live, Play, Repeat Edition

[vadim sharifijanov]

Nobody wore #2 for over 2.5 seasons after Hamhuis left, as an example.

i never could tell if 17 on vrbata and 9 on prust were trolling the player or trolling us

 

[Hodgy]

huh?

Gillis has made it very clear on multiple occasions he wanted to rebuild and that forward looking outlook led to him being fired.

where have you been?

That’s what I said.

 

[Peen]

i never could tell if 17 on vrbata and 9 on prust were trolling the player or trolling us

Had no issue with those. Kassian wasn’t anything special here and Kesler left on bad terms.

Vrbata played well in stretches as well.

The Benn Tanev thing is so weird.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

perhaps I'm reading what you've written wrong but are you saying Gillis did not want a rebuild and Benning did?

Uhhh that seems to be what he's saying. Trading Schnieder for Horvat and turning Luongo into Markstrom are potentially the best series of trades this franchise has seen since 2010.

Gillis damn well wanted to rebuild. It was so f***ing clear.

 

[wreckless]

thats what I thought he meant, but apparently he is aware that Gillis wanted a rebuild and Jim didn't.

as Iv'e always said, the causal fan did not deserve Mike Gillis.

 

[Dab]

I was actually a Benning apologist on here in 2015. Was a huge Bonino and Vrbata fan. The 2015 draft / free agency made me completely switch. That Kassian trade was absolutely laughable. When that Bonino trade went down I thought Benning was learning impaired.

Character guy Prust what a low point in franchise history

 

[Hit the post]

Had no issue with those. Kassian wasn’t anything special here and Kesler left on bad terms.

Vrbata played well in stretches as well.

The Benn Tanev thing is so weird.

Scored 30+ goals riding shotgun with the Sedins.

Then, for reasons unknown; Benning & Willie D felt it was better to move the winger off that line & insert "foundational player" Sutter with the Twins initially to better acclimate supposed veteran. Only other center Vrbata showed chemistry with - Bonino, was the guy dealt for fragile Sutter. To add the mixture, have sophmore Horvat shelter the veteran Sutter, by having Horvat handle the tough defensive assignments initially.

It's like they wanted the experiment to fail.

 

[valkynax]

I don't think there actually saying this, I might be wrong.

Can you provide a specific example on what someone said to prove your argument is valid?

Player Discussion - Loui Eriksson, Pt. II

"If Gillis and his Amateur Scouting had drafted competently from 2008-2013, then our needs on RD likely would have been met"

Benning brought in Gudbranson, and this was the justification.

Somehow Gillis' weakness in drafting has caused Benning to become a shitty talent evaluator.

 

[Hansen]

In that vein, maybe Benn did it to make sure management remembered Tanev, but why was Benn able to grab Tanev's number immediately? On the other hand, maybe management did it to disrespect Tanev? Anyway, I thought there was some sort of honour system to delay players grabbing long serving, but departed, player's numbers?

Gaudette was given it in exchange for having to give up #88 to Schmidt, which, while questionable, is fair IMO.

No other way Tanev's number should have been offered to anyone so soon.

What adds to it even more is that Benn saw Gaudette get it, and was like no kid give it here (apparently he paid up for it so maybe Gauds is wearing a Rolex on each wrist and that's why he's clunking around). I don't know who Benn thinks he is trying to make a demand like that though as a glorified tweener of a bottom pairing/#7 dman. Schmidt asking for someone else's number is one thing, but Jordie freaking Benn? Get real

 

[sandwichbird2023]

i just gave you exactly the kind of evidence you use to hang everything on benning. there is also ample evidence over the years that aquaman sets direction then keeps benning on a short leash and is a huge hockey fan and involved with decisions from the beginning. the hamhuis fiasco as related by botchford is a great example. according to botchford, benning had a deal with dallas, but aquaman made him go back for more, and dallas made a trade elsewhere.

you can posture all you want, of course, but i think anyone paying attention would think it is ridiculous for you to pretend you believe that benning has autonomy in making major signings of players for this team.

why do you assume it was not aquaman's idea in the first place? logic dictates benning would have been fired for that crazy risky signing unless ownership had ownership of it. so you are being illogical.

not to mention, shiny new toys every year, boundary pushing, and risk taking are all hallmarks of aquaman's entire period of ownership, not just the benning period.

they are also hallmarks of decision making by rich kids enjoying life on daddy's money.

These are just a couple examples from this thread alone where you shifted the blame to the owner, but I don't remember these brought up at the time, and definitely not when the team was winning.
I also doubt any sane business person being ok to expose himself willingly to an uninsurable contract in hockey. Say what you will about Aquilini, but being the one who initiated the dumb idea of commiting $12m to an injury prone player without the ability to insure against it is a stretch to me.
I also find it interesting that you are referencing Botch here, but outright dismiss it when he reported a high pick for Ryan Miller was on the table.

 

[mriswith]

Aqua is absolutely a problem, the biggest problem, and the most unsolveable problem.

And Aqua's interference does make it hard to judge Benning in some ways. There are rumours that Aqua likes to play GM and forces certain signings. There are only two possible explanations for why Benning wasn't fired a long time ago and this is one of them. The other is that Aqua's IQ matches Bennings. I lean towards the latter personally, because this also explains the Gillis issues, because at a certain gap in IQ communication breaks down.

And it wasn't just Benning, it was Gillis too. There are lots of rumours at the time that Gillis lost autonomy after 2011. Torts wasn't Gillis' choice for a coach, aqua blocked a Kesler trade to Pittsburgh, those are as validated as the Benning trades that didn't happen in 2015 1st for Lucic and Horvat+5th overall for Subban, etc. You could see it at the time too if you were reading between the lines.

But placing every Benning error on aqua, or placing specifics like the lack of communication with the guys over this summer, that's a pretty big stretch and the rumour mill hasn't been circulating on that as far as I've seen. That fits Bennings MO of only being able to do one thing at a time to a tee and he was chasing his tail on OEL all summer, I don't see aqua interference as necessary to explain the communication breakdown with the free agents. Same with the Ferland deal.

The ownership problem is just not a problem you can do anything about because owners are around forever unlike GM's who always have a shelf life. The best you can hope for is that the next GM has the guts to put aqua in his place. So it's more or less not that useful for discussion of management and all we can really do is roast Benning for the specifics of his transactions and inaction as opposed to general strategy.

 

[Wayward Son]

 

[mathonwy]

i never could tell if 17 on vrbata and 9 on prust were trolling the player or trolling us

That's an interesting observation.

 

[Dab]

Gaudette was given it in exchange for having to give up #88 to Schmidt, which, while questionable, is fair IMO.

No other way Tanev's number should have been offered to anyone so soon.

What adds to it even more is that Benn saw Gaudette get it, and was like no kid give it here (apparently he paid up for it so maybe Gauds is wearing a Rolex on each wrist and that's why he's clunking around). I don't know who Benn thinks he is trying to make a demand like that though as a glorified tweener of a bottom pairing/#7 dman. Schmidt asking for someone else's number is one thing, but Jordie freaking Benn? Get real

Tanev didn’t play for this team and the number wasn’t retired so this doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.

 

[vanuck]

The Ferland disaster signing has kind of gone off the radar of fans with his LTIR status, but you can be pretty sure Aquilini hasn't forgotten that he's paying $12 million for an uninsurable player not to play for the next 4 years.

This is also partly why the excuse that Benning was forced by Aquilini to go after certain targets in UFA is hard to believe. You think the owner would've willingly signed off on it had he known the risk and we'd done our due diligence? This is 100% on Jimbo.

 

[Hansen]

Tanev didn’t play for this team and the number wasn’t retired so this doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.

Elias Pettersson said no way is he taking #14 because of Alex Burrows who was no longer on the team. Guys respect the vets

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

listening to ferraro on 1040. they ask him about benning saying he ran out of time. “well [pauses] that doesn’t seem very organized [stutters, not sure what else you can say]”

lol

The truth he speaks just makes me more frustrated because as he said, who honestly looked at this team as improved after the bubble? I sure as shit didn't. And I agree that Schmidt hasn't exactly lived up to billing. I don't know what it is, I'm fairly certain it's a complete lack of systems. But you look at the tape, and you see him in the black and gold, and he's really aggressive, but smart enough with his skating that he denies zone entries and can make a hell of an outlet pass and can counter-attack, and he puts on blue and green and he's just as passive and permissive as any other defender out there.

This team is underperforming, true, but not by a whole lot and that falls squarely on management. Beagle I think has actually been fairly decent to start the year, that contract is terrible. Roussel has been getting progressively worse, and the contract sucks. Sutter is what he is, a useful enough player but his name value got him a much higher than needed price tag.

The management here has put a premium on "feel-good names". Tyler Myers is a flashy name to sign in FA, but honestly a guy like Stralman just off the top of my head would've been a more cost-effective grab to try to catapult us into the playoffs if that's the move we were going for, and we wouldn't be stuck with nearly as big of an albatross. Like we get these guys, and I'm like "OK, OK" because they are known commodities around the league like Gagner, Gudbranson, Sutter, Del Zotto, Roussel, Ferland, etc. but then you hear the numbers and kind of recoil like "oh", and then you actually do the deep digs on what they've been up to and you go "oh shit"...which is what the GM should be doing ahead of time and then the rose-colored glasses pop out of the woodwork saying "Oh, you're just shitting on Benning" like he's immune to criticism, and any wrongdoing on his part is excusable or up for debate. Then all of you catching the apples out of the Benning tree are wondering why these moves don't seem to work out for us, conveniently forgetting that those who did actual homework on the moves and didn't just go "Well, Sutter's been stuck in the 3C behind two of the best centers, imagine what he can do in the 2C!" or "Gudbranson was a 3rd overall pick! He must be good, he just hasn't reached his potential!", or whatever you've told yourself to make it seem OK...they told you why this wouldn't work. And then it didn't work. Big surprise.

I've been posting on this board for 11 damn years, Gillis got shit on, Nonis got shit on, Burke got shit on. And all three of them did much better jobs actual managing than this group has. Benning isn't the Canucks, I cheer for the Canucks. Benning's just the guy who happens to be in charge on delivering results, something we haven't really had out of one miraculous fluke run and the goalie that got us there was just let go. Now we're here. Figure that one out.

 

[Canucks1096]

Player Discussion - Loui Eriksson, Pt. II

"If Gillis and his Amateur Scouting had drafted competently from 2008-2013, then our needs on RD likely would have been met"

Benning brought in Gudbranson, and this was the justification.

Somehow Gillis' weakness in drafting has caused Benning to become a shitty talent evaluator.

Fair enough, you're right on that however if you need to go on an old thread from few years ago. That mean there not many people actually saying that.

Blaming Gillis on a specific Benning transaction make no sense. However most are not actually saying that, there saying because of Gillis bad drafting, that is one of the reason why Canucks missed the playoffs during that stretch. Totally different.

Have a good night

 

[valkynax]

Fair enough, you're right on that however if you need to go on an old thread from few years ago. That mean there not many people actually saying that.

Blaming Gillis on a specific Benning transaction make no sense. However most are not actually saying that, there saying because of Gillis bad drafting, that is one of the reason why Canucks missed the playoffs during that stretch. Totally different.

Have a good night

That's because, as I mentioned already, as time passes it progressively became a more pathetic and pale excuse to absolve Benning of any and all responsibilities. It's gotten to the point where even the most devoted zealots of Benning regard it as laughable.

 

[vanuck]

seriously though i literally can't think of a time when a team quit on its GM

has this ever happened before?

Yeah, like we've all heard of teams quitting on the coach before. But a GM? That's... basically unprecedented.

This could very well be the first time in NHL history to ever have something like that happen.

Also relevant:

 

[xtra]

This is also partly why the excuse that Benning was forced by Aquilini to go after certain targets in UFA is hard to believe. You think the owner would've willingly signed off on it had he known the risk and we'd done our due diligence? This is 100% on Jimbo.

And I get the feeling that this might be the thing to break the camels back.

Aqua might have been hesitant to get a player he couldn’t insure but benning pushes him to do it cause ferland is needed and boom ferland is out right away and leaves Aqua paying 12 mil for nothing

 

[December5th]

canucks not signing toffoli, tanev, and markstrom is a good thing. now we can get more draft picks instead of being a first round exit in the playoffs and not have any aging players against the cap

 

[krutovsdonut]

These are just a couple examples from this thread alone where you shifted the blame to the owner, but I don't remember these brought up at the time, and definitely not when the team was winning.
I also doubt any sane business person being ok to expose himself willingly to an uninsurable contract in hockey. Say what you will about Aquilini, but being the one who initiated the dumb idea of commiting $12m to an injury prone player without the ability to insure against it is a stretch to me.
I also find it interesting that you are referencing Botch here, but outright dismiss it when he reported a high pick for Ryan Miller was on the table.

do you dispute that aquaman sets direction for the team and keeps benning on a short keash? serious question. i'd like to hear your honest take since you seem to think it is a gotcha for me to have said it

ther's other shit to be said for that post but let's take it one at a time.

is my statement fair comment or not? if it is fair comment, what is your beef with me saying it?

let's see if you can deal with even one argumemt honestly before i take on the rest of your comments.

 

[moog35]

And surrounded it with similar crap to the Oilers and Sabres

Not even close to as bad but nice try

 

[vanuck]

Aqua is absolutely a problem, the biggest problem, and the most unsolveable problem.

And Aqua's interference does make it hard to judge Benning in some ways. There are rumours that Aqua likes to play GM and forces certain signings. There are only two possible explanations for why Benning wasn't fired a long time ago and this is one of them. The other is that Aqua's IQ matches Bennings. I lean towards the latter personally, because this also explains the Gillis issues, because at a certain gap in IQ communication breaks down.

And it wasn't just Benning, it was Gillis too. There are lots of rumours at the time that Gillis lost autonomy after 2011. Torts wasn't Gillis' choice for a coach, aqua blocked a Kesler trade to Pittsburgh, those are as validated as the Benning trades that didn't happen in 2015 1st for Lucic and Horvat+5th overall for Subban, etc. You could see it at the time too if you were reading between the lines.

But placing every Benning error on aqua, or placing specifics like the lack of communication with the guys over this summer, that's a pretty big stretch and the rumour mill hasn't been circulating on that as far as I've seen. That fits Bennings MO of only being able to do one thing at a time to a tee and he was chasing his tail on OEL all summer, I don't see aqua interference as necessary to explain the communication breakdown with the free agents. Same with the Ferland deal.

The ownership problem is just not a problem you can do anything about because owners are around forever unlike GM's who always have a shelf life. The best you can hope for is that the next GM has the guts to put aqua in his place. So it's more or less not that useful for discussion of management and all we can really do is roast Benning for the specifics of his transactions and inaction as opposed to general strategy.

Another reason could be that Aquilini hasn't been able to find a suitable candidate who wants to come here. For instance Friedman, Sekeres, Botchford and Willes have all reported that we tried to hire Lombardi as president on multiple occasions but got rebuffed. I think Aqua's got a bit of a rep around the league for being a knee-jerk owner and that he's aware of it, hence why he hasn't made a move until now. If his past behaviour is any indication, the guy's pretty sensitive to how others perceive him.

Yet at the same time, I also think he's found a situation where over the past couple years Benning has been weak-willed enough to allow Aquilini more say and control in hockey ops than he had with Gillis. As a passionate fanboy who now gets to own his favourite team, that's appealing. While OTOH Benning is the sort of spineless individual that'd go out of his way to save his own skin with 'make the playoffs at all costs' type moves at the expense of the franchise's long-term health. And I think even Aqua, while not a very smart person, is now realizing that.

But I agree that he's very likely not intervening in every single transaction. Like the Ferland contract alone should disprove that. Perhaps he does more so in terms of laying out high-level strategy (moar grit, size, toughness, Boston model etc.) and certain things the GM's not allowed to do (e.g buyouts or taking on cap), but when it comes down to the finer details - things like individual player evaluation, pro scouting and cap/asset management - that's all Benning. 100% of it. Aqua is pretty much the de facto president, but he's not playing GM the way some here are saying.