The Loss of Broberg and Holloway Gripe Thread

[Behind Enemy Lines]

You mean Broberg or Holloway?


I guess you have to expect there to be disconnect with posters on a hockey futures board when it comes to hockey now performance.

Wish I could understand your post.

This was such a botched situation that it is laughable for people to pull out irrelevancies while missing the big picture. Losing a big, fast and mobile young d emerging into a top 4 D for peanuts is among the worst possible management circumstances imaginable. That's not even including Holloway who at wing is at least reasonably replaceable (and has been adequately done with a fresh start Podkolzen). Threadbare prospect organizations can't afford to give NHL young talent away for low probability of NHL success return.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

You mean Broberg or Holloway?


I guess you have to expect there to be disconnect with posters on a hockey futures board when it comes to hockey now performance.

I certainly expect the Oilers to have a disconnect when it comes to even halfway competent management. Two key assets lost for next to nothing. All that time spent developing Holloway and Broberg to amount to nothing.

What magnifies the issue is their bottom of the league drafting. If we had a few more prospects knocking on the door you could stomach the loss but we really don't.

Zero draft picks from Ken Holland playing for the Oilers right now. That's horrific. At least we turned one of them into Ekholm, but other than Bouchard (and Skinner depending on how you feel about him), basically every single draft pick the Oilers have made post-McDavid hasn't panned out in a way that benefits the team.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Yikes. Didn't realize it was that bad. Definitely could use those guys right about now

Of course being without Kane, Hyman, Arv hurts too. Podkolzin has stepped up though (not last night) and added some scoring depth.

This team is still a powerhouse, but it remains to be seen what the loss of those guys will do to us come playoffs against the top teams.

The problem isn't just that the forwards we lost are outscoring the forwards we brought in by 20-9, its that this was predictable on EV minutes and type of minutes that would be had. Even if you remove a few PP goals the departed forwards have scored they are still outscoring the newer forwards by a wide margin and I said this was not a scoring upgrade at seasons start. I don't know how anybody expected it would be. The 3 oilers forwards last year had a prorated 44 goals. Nothing to sneeze at. It was clear Holloway was finding his scoring game. The goals he scored last year and in playoffs were beauties and with a player that had known offensive upside. Not to mention losing young players and replacing with worse, in older players is a quantum bad idea. Only mismanagement would lose two top prospects in one offseason.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I certainly expect the Oilers to have a disconnect when it comes to even halfway competent management. Two key assets lost for next to nothing. All that time spent developing Holloway and Broberg to amount to nothing.

What magnifies the issue is their bottom of the league drafting. If we had a few more prospects knocking on the door you could stomach the loss but we really don't.

Zero draft picks from Ken Holland playing for the Oilers right now. That's horrific. At least we turned one of them into Ekholm, but other than Bouchard (and Skinner depending on how you feel about him), basically every single draft pick the Oilers have made post-McDavid hasn't panned out in a way that benefits the team.

There's even now a reasonable trade return benchmark for 'stuck' trade request pedigree blue chip young d-men with the Jiricek trade. Though Jiricek hasn't had the proving points of jumping into final four NHL playoff competition after a month of inactivity.

Incredible to have Jackson hire on day 1 profess priority to build a sustainable window, focus on draft and development, watch Holland's kids make meaningful playoff contributions, then go to sleep on prioritizing them to re-sign. Message received by the players, their agents, and a hungry growth market that sniffed out obvious vulnerability and opportunity to add quality young talent for peanuts. How all these points of obviousness could be missed by a former super agent is baffling

 

[Drivesaitl]

0 chance they'd have those numbers here.

Holloway had 3 goals through 32 games last year here, Foegele had 3 or 4 goals at this point I believe, and McLeod had 2 goals in his first 29 games ... so basically Podkolzin, Perry, and Skinner have the same offense we got from these guys a year ago.

Good for them for scoring in much lower pressure situations with more gravy time (PP time), but that wouldn't be the situation here for any of them I don't think.

Holloway had 6G here in 36 regular season games and 5more in 25 playoff games. This having him at 11 goals in 61 games and prorated to a tidy 15 goal contribution from a young 22yr old player with all kinds of intangibles. Obviously he'd found some scoring touch and being a young player was probably going to have scoring upside. Holloway would easily be a better option with Drai than the players we've been using. With even a moderate uptick due to a youth progresing Holloway could have been expected to score 15-20 here this season. Doesn't look like ANY of the new forwards we brought in will match that.

I don't even know how you think its remotely honest to speciously pick time sample and say the new guys "have just the same offense" when the score differential between forwards lost and gained is 20-9. Also clearly Holloway was sill finding his NHL game early last season and by end of playoffs clear that he had found it.
Your PP comment is just lazy. Tells me you haven't even checked. Only 2 of the 20 goals scored by McLeod, Foegele, Holloway this season our PP goals. But for some reason you mentioned that.

 

[McDNicks17]

There's even now a reasonable trade return benchmark for 'stuck' trade request pedigree blue chip young d-men with the Jiricek trade. Though Jiricek hasn't had the proving points of jumping into final four NHL playoff competition after a month of inactivity.

Incredible to have Jackson hire on day 1 profess priority to build a sustainable window, focus on draft and development, watch Holland's kids make meaningful playoff contributions, then go to sleep on prioritizing them to sign. Message received by the players, their agents, and a hungry growth market that sniffed out obvious vulnerability and opportunity to add quality young talent for peanuts. How all these points of obviousness could be missed by a former super agent is baffling

There's a pretty huge difference between Jiricek and Broberg.

One has a couple years left on his ELC. The other had already secured a $4.6M offer sheet.

Fair to say it's pretty obvious why one had a trade market and the other didn't. And that's not even considering age.

 

[AM]

Wish I could understand your post.

This was such a botched situation that it is laughable for people to pull out irrelevancies while missing the big picture. Losing a big, fast and mobile young d emerging into a top 4 D for peanuts is among the worst possible management circumstances imaginable. That's not even including Holloway who at wing is at least reasonably replaceable (and has been adequately done with a fresh start Podkolzen). Threadbare prospect organizations can't afford to give NHL young talent away for low probability of NHL success return.

Well there is a lot of confusion on both sides it seems. Every decision you make has risk and reward. For whatever reason they didn’t want to play n Edmonton.

That’s the end of the story for me.

 

[Soundwave]

Holloway had 6G here in 36 regular season games and 5more in 25 playoff games. This having him at 11 goals in 61 games and prorated to a tidy 15 goal contribution from a young 22yr old player with all kinds of intangibles. Obviously he'd found some scoring touch and being a young player was probably going to have scoring upside. Holloway would easily be a better option with Drai than the players we've been using. With even a moderate uptick due to a youth progresing Holloway could have been expected to score 15-20 here this season. Doesn't look like ANY of the new forwards we brought in will match that.

I don't even know how you think its remotely honest to speciously pick time sample and say the new guys "have just the same offense" when the score differential between forwards lost and gained is 20-9. Also clearly Holloway was sill finding his NHL game early last season and by end of playoffs clear that he had found it.
Your PP comment is just lazy. Tells me you haven't even checked. Only 2 of the 20 goals scored by McLeod, Foegele, Holloway this season our PP goals. But for some reason you mentioned that.

They're getting opportunities they wouldn't get here, every team also scouts the shit out of us whereas no one gives a flying f*** about playing LA or Buffalo or St. Louis, it's just a random game on the schedule in that case. If they were here, they'd be all likely playing a lot in the bottom 6, Foegele basically said that himself.

They were here last year, they all struggled to score in the first 30 games here a year ago and then struggled again to score at the rates in the playoffs that guys like Kostin and Bjugstad had the playoffs prior. Holloway had an OK run but at least one of those goals was pure garbage time (McLeod and Holloway scored the 7th and 8th goals in a blow out win against Florida, whoopity doo).

I just don't think they'd have the same numbers here, sorry. More pressure, less opportunity.

 

[Drivesaitl]

There's even now a reasonable trade return benchmark for 'stuck' trade request pedigree blue chip young d-men with the Jiricek trade. Though Jiricek hasn't had the proving points of jumping into final four NHL playoff competition after a month of inactivity.

Incredible to have Jackson hire on day 1 profess priority to build a sustainable window, focus on draft and development, watch Holland's kids make meaningful playoff contributions, then go to sleep on prioritizing them to sign. Message received by the players, their agents, and a hungry growth market that sniffed out obvious vulnerability and opportunity to add quality young talent for peanuts. How all these points of obviousness could be missed by a former super agent is baffling

Incredibly suspect managing of assets. How prospect assets are not priority of a contender and this having to be explained as a horrible thing on "hockey futures" website is frankly beyond the pale. Its what I didn't get that the majority of the board didn't, and many still don't, realize how badly mismanaged the offseason was. An absolute debacle in asset managemen which I was stating in real time.

To credit finding Kapanen is help on the cheap and something prior management wouldn't do finding a player that can actually slot in a bit. The Pods file looks better than I thought too but still not as good as the players we lost.

 

[AM]

I certainly expect the Oilers to have a disconnect when it comes to even halfway competent management. Two key assets lost for next to nothing. All that time spent developing Holloway and Broberg to amount to nothing.

What magnifies the issue is their bottom of the league drafting. If we had a few more prospects knocking on the door you could stomach the loss but we really don't.

Zero draft picks from Ken Holland playing for the Oilers right now. That's horrific. At least we turned one of them into Ekholm, but other than Bouchard (and Skinner depending on how you feel about him), basically every single draft pick the Oilers have made post-McDavid hasn't panned out in a way that benefits the team.

Seems to me they are doing the right thing.

Building up a balance to be able to afford the best team for the playoffs.

Not blowing their wad on over priced parts at the start of the year and hoping they develop and are useful in the playoffs.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Well there is a lot of confusion on both sides it seems. Every decision you make has risk and reward. For whatever reason they didn’t want to play n Edmonton.

That’s the end of the story for me.

There isn't any confusion at all, from statements by Holloway that he was expecting offers, expecting negotiations, and none came from the Oilers. Then he got the offersheet and at the point that he had already seen the Oilers stack the deck (lol) with a bunch of old forwards, and continuing with all the old forwards they had. It isn't for some reason. The offersheet was the first contract available for Holloway to sign.

 

[AM]

Incredibly suspect managing of assets. How prospect assets are not priority of a contender and this having to be explained as a horrible thing on "hockey futures" website is frankly beyond the pale. Its what I didn't get that the majority of the board didn't, and many still don't, realize how badly mismanaged the offseason was. An absolute debacle in asset managemen which I was stating in real time.

To credit finding Kapanen is help on the cheap and something prior management wouldn't do finding a player that can actually slot in a bit. The Pods file looks better than I thought too but still not as good as the players we lost.

We are in win now mode. We don’t care about prospects.

There isn't any confusion at all, from statements by Holloway that he was expecting offers, expecting negotiations, and none came from the Oilers. Then he got the offersheet and at the point that he had already seen the Oilers stack the deck (lol) with a bunch of old forwards, and continuing with all the old forwards they had. It isn't for some reason. The offersheet was the first contract available for Holloway to sign.

So he was terrified he couldn’t compete with the old forwards so he ran away?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

There's even now a reasonable trade return benchmark for 'stuck' trade request pedigree blue chip young d-men with the Jiricek trade. Though Jiricek hasn't had the proving points of jumping into final four NHL playoff competition after a month of inactivity.

Incredible to have Jackson hire on day 1 profess priority to build a sustainable window, focus on draft and development, watch Holland's kids make meaningful playoff contributions, then go to sleep on prioritizing them to sign. Message received by the players, their agents, and a hungry growth market that sniffed out obvious vulnerability and opportunity to add quality young talent for peanuts. How all these points of obviousness could be missed by a former super agent is baffling

Losing Broberg for what's likely to be a mid-second is inexcusable. The chances of that pick becoming anything near Broberg whether by draft or trade is basically nil.

But this is Oilers management. Asset management has been a complete joke for a very, very long time. Eberle was the only thing keeping the Chris Pronger trade from being the worst in league history. And even then Hall and Eberle eventually became nothing and nothing respectively. JP became a player who isn't even on this continent and probably never will be. Yamamoto became future considerations. Not that these were special players or anything but we offloaded them at their lowest value and basically wasted several first round picks on absolutely nothing.

 

[McDNicks17]

There isn't any confusion at all, from statements by Holloway that he was expecting offers, expecting negotiations, and none came from the Oilers. Then he got the offersheet and at the point that he had already seen the Oilers stack the deck (lol) with a bunch of old forwards, and continuing with all the old forwards they had. It isn't for some reason. The offersheet was the first contract available for Holloway to sign.

People are welcome to take that at face value, but the 'I'm the victim here. It was either Europe or the offer sheet' stuff just screams PR to me.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Seems to me they are doing the right thing.

Building up a balance to be able to afford the best team for the playoffs.

Not blowing their wad on over priced parts at the start of the year and hoping they develop and are useful in the playoffs.

What balance? This supposedly amazing offense is producing at a clip barely above the San Jose Sharks. They're barely in a playoff spot right now and certainly don't resemble a championship team.

You need young players to inject energy and speed into the team that guys like Corey Perry and Derek Ryan simply don't have.

Let me put it another way. They traded two first round picks for a second and a third. Does that seem like a good trade to you?

 

[Drivesaitl]

They're getting opportunities they wouldn't get here, every team also scouts the shit out of us whereas no one gives a flying f*** about playing LA or Buffalo or St. Louis, it's just a random game on the schedule in that case. If they were here, they'd be all likely playing a lot in the bottom 6, Foegele basically said that himself.

They were here last year, they all struggled to score in the first 30 games here a year ago and then struggled again to score at the rates in the playoffs that guys like Kostin and Bjugstad had the playoffs prior. Holloway had an OK run but at least one of those goals was pure garbage time (McLeod and Holloway scored the 7th and 8th goals in a blow out win against Florida, whoopity doo).

I just don't think they'd have the same numbers here, sorry. More pressure, less opportunity.

Why on Earth would you use a 30 game barometer when a full season is available. To have specious sample, thats why. If you're going to continue in that vein no point discussing it. You've just cherry picked sample of your liking as if its representative.

To wit Foegele has as many EV goals as Arvid across SEVERAL seasons and this even with Foegele spending most of his time on bottomsix. It was actually Arvid that benefitted from PP padding in LA and that had higher usage in LA.

Its interesting you make the bolded point without apparently realizing that its exactly the reason that life has been harder here for Arvid and Skinner. I don't disagree that it can be harder to score on a contender but all of the 3 did find their scoring HERE last season. Again if you need to be reminded the 3 accounted for 38 actual goals last season, or 44 prorated goals. Again this was a total arvid, Skinner, Pod combined were not likely to reach here.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I said from the start Broberg was the one that will be missed, not Holloway....looks like we miss both
it's all good, we got Brown doing nothing again, Jeff Skinner doing f*** all, Arvidsson always injured and Caggulia somehow in the line-up

 

[Drivesaitl]

People are welcome to take that at face value, but the 'I'm the victim here. It was either Europe or the offer sheet' stuff just screams PR to me.

So its just reasonable to assume Holloway is a liar? Thats the extent of copium we're going for? Note I'm talking specifically about Holloway situation in this.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

There's a pretty huge difference between Jiricek and Broberg.

One has a couple years left on his ELC. The other had already secured a $4.6M offer sheet.

Fair to say it's pretty obvious why one had a trade market and the other didn't. And that's not even considering age.

There's Oiler off season planning August 12 before and after. They missed/chose in their decision making to not actively negotiate with a known flight risk damaged relationship and a second young pedigree NHL playoff steeled homegrown talent. Smart management is active and aggressive in the circumstances to negotiate new deals and/or concurrently work the trade routes which had been well traveled involving both players that trade deadline and by accounts the year before. There's no signed offer sheet with a team that doesn't have or can't guarantee the required paltry draft collateral to execute. Armstrong would be a natural first stop to have any trade contingency planning given the known deep interest and past discussions. A trade conversation mitigates an inflationary offer sheet situation and quite possibly nets a reasonable trade return if Broberg shows his hand to reject a reasonable negotiation with super agent.

Sitting on your two pedigree, playoff proven players with no contact and no active negotiation until the Hlinka Tournament in August when the Blues also finally secured the required draft collateral was always unnecessary risk with their spending and apparent obliviousness to changing market conditions. It's even reported this inactivity drove an inexperienced Holloway agent to seek council of the trade request, flight risk player's aggressive agent.

 

[Drivesaitl]

We are in win now mode. We don’t care about prospects.


So he was terrified he couldn’t compete with the old forwards so he ran away?

You can do better than this as a reply.

Yes contending teams often have prospects playing for them. The Dallas Stars had Marchment and Johnson and Stankoven being 3 of their better forwards all post season. Making huge contributions for the club and adding some legs to a team that otherwise was looking slow and tired (see a pattern)

 

[AM]

What balance? This supposedly amazing offense is producing at a clip barely above the San Jose Sharks. They're barely in a playoff spot right now and certainly don't resemble a championship team.

You need young players to inject energy and speed into the team that guys like Corey Perry and Derek Ryan simply don't have.

Let me put it another way. They traded two first round picks for a second and a third. Does that seem like a good trade to you?

There is a salary cap in the nhl.

What you need to win isn’t youthful exuberance, it is wise execution.

Another issue is injuries. When you save salary cap and choose who fills out your team best at the deadline you avoid injury risk.

You can do better than this as a reply.

Make a better argument and it might inspire me.

 

[McDNicks17]

So its just reasonable to assume Holloway is a liar? Thats the extent of copium we're going for? Note I'm talking specifically about Holloway situation in this.

Bowman and Holloway's side both said he received offers.

He obviously had options, so the whole "the offer sheet was my only option" thing he said was definitely an exaggeration for PR's sake, I'd say.

 

[Soundwave]

Why on Earth would you use a 30 game barometer when a full season is available. To have specious sample, thats why. If you're going to continue in that vein no point discussing it. You've just cherry picked sample of your liking as if its representative.

To wit Foegele has as many EV goals as Arvid across SEVERAL seasons and this even with Foegele spending most of his time on bottomsix. It was actually Arvid that benefitted from PP padding in LA and that had higher usage in LA.

Its interesting you make the bolded point without apparently realizing that its exactly the reason that life has been harder here for Arvid and Skinner. I don't disagree that it can be harder to score on a contender but all of the 3 did find their scoring HERE last season. Again if you need to be reminded the 3 accounted for 38 actual goals last season, or 44 prorated goals. Again this was a total arvid, Skinner, Pod combined were not likely to reach here.

If we're looking at this season thus far (23 games or whatever), it's entirely fair to look at the exact same 23 game span last year ... if those guys are so much better, what was their production like in the same exact situation last year?

Turns out not much f***ing better. Foegele/McLeod/Holloway had like 9 goals combined this time a year, how is that better than what's here this year? Skinner (4) + Perry (4) + Podkolzin (3) actually have more goals than what we got from Foegele/McLeod/Holloway at the equivalent point a year ago.

It's harder to score here as a support player. More pressure, teams scout and play with a stick up their ass when ever McDavid or Drai are on the ice, and McDavid/Drai themselves are not an auto-ticket to goals, you have to know how to play and read off them and that can be difficult too. Otherwise you're into the dregs of our bottom 6 which never really scores much. Then throw in added media scrutiny ... in St. Louis, LA, etc. no one gives a f*** about hockey that much, you can relax and do your thing, Buffalo at this point is basically a running joke of a franchise so there's not much expectation there.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Bowman and Holloway's side both said he received offers.

He obviously had options, so the whole "the offer sheet was my only option" thing he said was definitely an exaggeration for PR's sake, I'd say.

Citation where Holloways side clearly said he had offers from the Oilers. We've all heard Holloway say directly otherwise.

 

[McDNicks17]

There's Oiler off season planning August 12 before and after. They missed/chose in their decision making to not actively negotiate with a known flight risk damaged relationship and a second young pedigree NHL playoff steeled homegrown talent. Smart management is active and aggressive in the circumstances to negotiate new deals and/or concurrently work the trade routes which had been well traveled involving both players that trade deadline and by accounts the year before. There's no signed offer sheet with a team that doesn't have or can't guarantee the required paltry draft collateral to execute. Armstrong would be a natural first stop to have any trade contingency planning given the known deep interest and past discussions. A trade conversation mitigates an inflationary offer sheet situation and quite possibly nets a reasonable trade return if Broberg shows his hand to reject a reasonable negotiation with super agent.

Sitting on your two pedigree, playoff proven players with no contact and no active negotiation until the Hlinka Tournament in August when the Blues also finally secured the required draft collateral was always unnecessary risk with their spending and apparent obliviousness to changing market conditions. It's even reported this inactivity drove an inexperienced Holloway agent to seek council of the trade request, flight risk player's aggressive agent.

Why would Armstrong trade more assets for Broberg when he knows he already wants to sign an offer sheet with him?