The Loss of Broberg and Holloway Gripe Thread

[5 Mins 4 Ftg]

If this team truly believed in Broberg... they should have matched his offer. If they think Broberg will become a top4 dman in this league (which he has all the tools to become one)... then he would have made north of $4 million anyways in a couple of years... and overpaying him now by a couple of million dollars shouldn't have mattered so much imo. I truly see the potential in Broberg... saw in last year's playoffs too.. and I hate that we lost him due to a freakin offer sheet. Do you know how hard it is to find big young mobile Dman like him?

Listening to Lawton, Serevalli and a few others on ON they think we made a big mistake not matching Broberg as you say top 4 D don’t grow on trees. Serevalli thinks Broberg will be playing at a $6M contract level by years end.

Lawton thinks the play was pass on Holloway, match Broberg, keep Ceci and VD and trade Kulak. Would have meant jettisoning a forward and or LTIRing Kane.

Too bad he always had a terrible training camp and that successive coaches didn’t believe in him till it was basically too late.

Either way the die is cast, the Oilers strategy is to be aggressively pursuing Cap Space and they won’t deviate. Let’s see what they come up with at the TDL to plug the gaping hole on RD.

Yeah, for sure. We got all the garden in now and yardwork done, garage cleaned up and I'm retired and kind of bored. Wife can't travel now due to illness so kind of stuck. I've read all the books I want to be reading. Watched TV series I wouldn't watch regularly. I'll be stripping paint and repainting washrooms today. How bored I am. ha

I have to assemble two record boxes and then re-sort my much too large Iron Maiden record collection today.

Beats reorganizing the sock drawer though.

 

[McDNicks17]

At least we're complaining about losing decent players now.

That like two year stretch where some people cried about losing Josh Archibald and Riley Sheahan in half the threads was wild.

 

[Lay Z Boy GM]

At least we're complaining about losing decent players now.

That like two year stretch where some people cried about losing Josh Archibald and Riley Sheahan in half the threads was wild.

Those two were excellent penalty killers though to give them credit. Offensive black holes, especially Sheahan

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Listening to Lawton, Serevalli and a few others on ON they think we made a big mistake not matching Broberg as you say top 4 D don’t grow on trees. Serevalli thinks Broberg will be playing at a $6M contract level by years end.

Lawton thinks the play was pass on Holloway, match Broberg, keep Ceci and VD and trade Kulak. Would have meant jettisoning a forward and or LTIRing Kane.

Too bad he always had a terrible training camp and that successive coaches didn’t believe in him till it was basically too late.

Either way the die is cast, the Oilers strategy is to be aggressively pursuing Cap Space and they won’t deviate. Let’s see what they come up with at the TDL to plug the gaping hole on RD.



I have to assemble two record boxes and then re-sort my much too large Iron Maiden record collection today.

Beats reorganizing the sock drawer though.

The play was always Broberg. If a team is going to offer sheet burn the risk on top centres or defensemen. Mid-range wingers are plentiful and easy to replace.

Bouchard and Broberg had a solid run together pre-Ekholm trade and not hard to see an extending window with both as valuable players on an aging blueline. With the damaged relationship with Broberg and following the late playoff proving point it was a missed read to not engage early to negotiate on a core future roster piece. Be pro-active on a player you've identified as a valuable support player in short-term and longer term. Assess if the relationship is salvageable with movement to your best offer early and explore contingencies if the opportunity issue of playing time and future couldn't be bridged. Once the market reset both Broberg and Holloway's value in August and the Oilers had spent their money, the die was cast.

Personally, I felt they could have moved out Ceci and ran with Kulak at 2RD until trade deadline with Broberg onboarding at 3LD or even platooning with Kulak for second pair. Then move Kulak at deadline to fill 2RD with a natural right shot option.

Oilers management got caught badly misreading the player relationships within a growth cap market with more money in it and projected high annual growth for each year to follow. It culminated years of indecision with both players who share in the development question marks that occurred. Once the external market competitor strategically valued Broberg at $4.58 million he was gone. Too expensive for Edmonton and even if matched would have been a target for a segment of the fanbase through the inevitable wobbles that happen with young d-men.

It's a big loss for this team's future. But the organization's reactive August 12 contingency plan for the immediate season has left this team's weaker with a huge get required to replace a hollowed out d corp and the primary need of middle pair right D carrying a scarcity premium. Losing top young talent for pennies on the development dollar is the L here. Had they not matched on first round level compensation no issue as you at least arm yourself with a pedigree draft pick to help reset the roster hole created by this loss.

EDIT: Glad this thread was finally set up after requesting it months back with the issue of discussion crossing over a ton of threads and repetitive conversations. I've vented my spleen far more than enough and hope to leave it here with more than enough time spent on the done dead. Hope Broberg and Holloway bite the pillow (but have always maintained belief that Broberg would figure it out).

 

[GOilers88]

People blasted Broberg right from the time he was drafted. He was a bust on these boards for years.

He got his bag and went somewhere else and is now running with it. I think that's what pisses people off more than anything relating to him not wanting to stay in Edmonton. Bag on him and management for being a bust and bad pick. Bag on him and management for going somewhere else and not giving him a raise.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Do I wish we still had them both? Yep.
Am I mad at either player? Not at all.

I hope they both do well. Broberg more just to spite everyone that shit all over him for 3 years.

 

[Old Boys Club]

People blasted Broberg right from the time he was drafted. He was a bust on these boards for years.

He got his bag and went somewhere else and is now running with it. I think that's what pisses people off more than anything relating to him not wanting to stay in Edmonton. Bag on him and management for being a bust and bad pick. Bag on him and management for going somewhere else and not giving him a raise.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Do I wish we still had them both? Yep.
Am I mad at either player? Not at all.

I hope they both do well. Broberg more just to spite everyone that shit all over him for 3 years.

He was a bust in every circle up until 15 games ago. The collective derision for this pick in the hockey community was at a level of collective agreement rarely ever reached.

 

[CupofOil]

Yeah I don't know where this idea came from that the lineup has to have vets up and down the lineup. It's a cap world and ELC/Young hungry players on cheap contracts is how teams stay competitive. Always said that we should let some of our prospects have a shot on the 4th line/3rd pairing over the usual disappointers. Apparently management still disagrees with that sentiment, even though everyone else does it. Another "we are smarter than everyone else in the league" mindset.

Well, Broberg and Holloway aren't on cheap ELC's anymore. That's why they're gone.
"It's a Cap World". That's also why they're gone.

One can argue that they should have created cap space to match the offer sheets or just not sign Arvidsson and or Skinner but the fact that they weren't young players on cheap ELC's anymore or young players on cheap bridge contracts is what degraded their value for a contender with constant cap issues and that wanted to keep its cap flexibility to add for the playoffs.

 

[GOilers88]

He was a bust in every circle up until 15 games ago. The collective derision for this pick in the hockey community was at a level of collective agreement rarely ever reached.

Which is why I'm even happier to see him finding success. I hope he kills it.

 

[McShogun99]

Listening to Lawton, Serevalli and a few others on ON they think we made a big mistake not matching Broberg as you say top 4 D don’t grow on trees. Serevalli thinks Broberg will be playing at a $6M contract level by years end.

Lawton thinks the play was pass on Holloway, match Broberg, keep Ceci and VD and trade Kulak. Would have meant jettisoning a forward and or LTIRing Kane.

Too bad he always had a terrible training camp and that successive coaches didn’t believe in him till it was basically too late.

Either way the die is cast, the Oilers strategy is to be aggressively pursuing Cap Space and they won’t deviate. Let’s see what they come up with at the TDL to plug the gaping hole on RD.



I have to assemble two record boxes and then re-sort my much too large Iron Maiden record collection today.

Beats reorganizing the sock drawer though.

I thought we should have matched on both and then look into either trading them next August or if they didn't live up to their contract, buy them out. I would have kept Ceci, moved Kulak and put Kane on LTIR. If Kane comes back mid season then you make a move then but I have a feeling that he was going to be out until the playoffs anyways. I think management was to confident that this team will go to the Cup finals if they upgrade 2nd pairing RD and were to focused on the trade deadline instead of the right now.

Whatever happens now I wish the worst for Broberg, Holloway and the Blues and hope the 2nd and 3rd get traded for someone that is a key factor in us winning a Cup.

 

[Oilers333]

Do I think the team is worse this year without them and also without Ceci, Desharnais, Foegele and Mcloed? Yes absolutely.

Do I think the Oilers could afford to match the offer sheets with their current cap constraints? Definite no. The team is about to have 3 players taking up 45% of the cap within the next couple years so be prepared to not be able to afford a whole bunch more players as well.

 

[McShogun99]

Do I think the team is worse this year without them and also without Ceci, Desharnais, Foegele and Mcloed? Yes absolutely.

Do I think the Oilers could afford to match the offer sheets with their current cap constraints? Definite no. The team is about to have 3 players taking up 45% of the cap within the next couple years so be prepared to not be able to afford a whole bunch more players as well.

Cap will be going up a good amount year by year now. Bouchard is doing his best to not get paid on his next contract. Draisaitl is getting a 5.5 bump in pay but that’s all coming out of the buyouts and bonuses that are ending this year. Either way we are going to be paying a top 4 RD 4+ million regardless of it was Broberg or someone else.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

He was a bust in every circle up until 15 games ago. The collective derision for this pick in the hockey community was at a level of collective agreement rarely ever reached.

And yet here the player is arriving at age 23 as an NHL top 4 defenseman. After stepping up in the game's most difficult level of competition. The premature rush to judgement has been funny to follow as it was initially f*** should have taken Zegras then when he stalled out became a litany of other names. This was always about projecting the raw abilities of size, skating, and modern era defending game with reach and gap control with ability to transport pucks out of own zone.

The player's game starting to come into focus with hard miles development put in and a clear position and runway to play through team and individual dips in play on his strong side with quality veteran partner. Looking like Holland's scouting belief and projection were on point.

Far too easy to jump to premature conclusions on young NHL defensemen.

 

[russ99]

Losing Holloway and Broberg hurts, but it's a cause/effect thing, not a moment of player mismanagement.

I primarily blame Woodcroft. When they pushed above their level in the AHL and were called up as they should have beem, they were sidelined and when played, it was on the last line/pair for 3-5 minutes a game and yanked at the sight of any mistake.

You can put it on Holland's slow development path, but the truth is they did develop and deserved call-ups.

With Jackson coming in, Holland phased out, it's very obvious that prospects misplayed by the previous regime and coaching upon hitting expensive RFA years were planned to be phased out.

I'd ask our fans to be patient, the point is not to remove players that could help, it's to reset from one prospect group to a younger, more skilled, and ones who should play seasons under contract/ELC years at the NHL level to add skilled talents when we can capitalize on cost certainty, which smart bloggers have wanted for years. This is what our draft trades and moving for Savoie was about.

It should also inform team plans with current prospects, as Emberson, Dermott and Philip are RFA this coming summer, so the clock is surely running. Does any of them warrant a bridge contract at this point?

 

[Drivesaitl]

He was a bust in every circle up until 15 games ago. The collective derision for this pick in the hockey community was at a level of collective agreement rarely ever reached.

This had as much to do that he was an Oiler player and pick than anything. With a lot of the "hockey community" jeering anything we do and any player we have. Truth be told. If he was a product of any other Canadian club the take would be much different.

 

[russ99]

Yep. Broberg was honest with the org and if not used here wanted to be elsewhere. Players are not some teams property or chattel. Avenues are available to them to go elsewhere. I contrast what Broberg did, open about it, with what Larsson did years later lying to the club that he would resign and then signing with somebody else and not even communicating that intent, and that that player cost us Taylor Hall. Sure Larsson could do whatever he liked but one player was open about it all along and another turned coat.

That said neither should be met with personal scorn for decisions. I understand where the animus can come from, but we all interpret situations individually and probably on a case by case basis.

It also speaks to the passion of a Canadian fanbase that we should feel so strongly about players leaving, but we probably shouldn't, and that includes me. We all have our reactions and triggers.

Kind of heartless. Larsson didn't resign here because his dad passed away in town and he didn't want to stay, also didn't want his mother to relive the tragedy every time she came to visit him.

And let's be honest, he was a UFA, it was his decision, regardless what the team wanted.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Kind of heartless. Larsson didn't resign here because his dad passed away in town and he didn't want to stay, also didn't want his mother to relive the tragedy every time she came to visit him.

And let's be honest, he was a UFA, it was his decision, regardless what the team wanted.

I'd just finished saying I shouldn't have either reaction. Didn't realize the part about the mother visiting tbh. Anyway I said:


"It also speaks to the passion of a Canadian fanbase that we should feel so strongly about players leaving, but we probably shouldn't, and that includes me. We all have our reactions and triggers."

That said I disliked Larsson and perhaps mostly due to the Hall trade. Never really got over that one.

 

[McDNicks17]

I'm still pretty firmly in wait and see territory on Broberg for a few reasons:

1) He's playing butter soft minutes behind Parayko. He's only playing 21% of his ice time against elite comp and has been annihilated while playing it(30.6% DFF)
2) He's getting beat up defensively, but getting saved by a .983 onSV%. People are in for a rude surprise if they think his goals against numbers are going to stay down
3) He's shooting almost five times his career SH%
4) He has a point on every single goal the Blues have scored with him on the ice. That luck with secondary assists isn't going to keep up


The offense is going to dip as the sample size grows. It'll be interesting to see if it stays at a level that's worth the trade off of not being able to trust him defensively.

 

[Ninety7]

Would you have said this, were you saying this a year ago. Or at end of playoffs? Holloway tossed in 6 goals in his 38 games and another 5 in 22 playoff games. Seemed like the goals were coming for him and prorated to full season thats 16 goals from a young player that tears into forechecks, has speed and plays with intensity every shift. The very worst that Holloway can end up being is a roll player that pots 15-20yr. Thats about the worst projection. He's already there. He probably improves. On the right team a player like Holloway could be elevated to a more constant topsix role. Will be hard for him to get that in STL but on the right team he would. I think a 2nd line often needs a contest pucks player like Holloway. He has all kinds of jam.

I like Holloway as a player.

But I think he’s more replaceable than what Broberg could have brought, in terms of team needs.

We essentially have Jeff skinner and Arviddsson that theoritically should have been more than enough to replace hollowaysnproduction.

But arvidsson has failed miserably and I would rather have both Holloway and broberg over the two

 

[Drivesaitl]

I like Holloway as a player.

But I think he’s more replaceable than what Broberg could have brought, in terms of team needs.

We essentially have Jeff skinner and Arviddsson that theoritically should have been more than enough to replace hollowaysnproduction.

But arvidsson has failed miserably and I would rather have both Holloway and broberg over the two

We're paying Arvid quite a lot to be putting up 0 pts so far.

Just to recap Foegele, McLeod, Holloway put up 38 goals last season collectively. If we correct for full season proration for Holloway that would be a total of 45 goals from these 3 players. Arvid and Skinner together won't match that, and yet get paid way more.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

Arvidsson has 0 pts after 7 games.

I reread my own post a couple thousand times and I'm not able to seem to find where exactly I said arvidsson was a good pickup.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I'm still pretty firmly in wait and see territory on Broberg for a few reasons:

1) He's playing butter soft minutes behind Parayko. He's only playing 21% of his ice time against elite comp and has been annihilated while playing it(30.6% DFF)
2) He's getting beat up defensively, but getting saved by a .983 onSV%. People are in for a rude surprise if they think his goals against numbers are going to stay down
3) He's shooting almost five times his career SH%
4) He has a point on every single goal the Blues have scored with him on the ice. That luck with secondary assists isn't going to keep up


The offense is going to dip as the sample size grows. It'll be interesting to see if it stays at a level that's worth the trade off of not being able to trust him defensively.

Why would the Blues pay the acquisition cost to throw a young, developing defenseman into deep water situational play? When they don't have to with strong veteran guys Leddy and Suter able to insulate and allow the young player to establish a consistent NHL game. Funny how Parayko has 'become' elite again after alot of advance stats were pegging him as washed a couple years ago.

Of course his offense is going to regress. It's not sustainable. This season is about growing a reliable 18-20 minute middle pair defenseman (currently 19:47 avg toi) who can support PK and PP. School's in session this season with a quality old veteran blueline group to help stabilize and grow a young d-man game who is only moving into peak performance years.

I'm more concerned with the advance stats promise of Emberson 'easily' replacing Ceci with tough middle pair ice-time and responsibilities. In both younger players situations, best to manage expectations and play them within situations to succeed.

 

[nabob]

You know exactly what I meant. They might not be in a playoff spot by the time the TDL rolls around. The way they're playing so far certainly isn't inspiring the fanbase, and think of the insane run they had to go on last year just to get into a decent spot in the standings. Home ice doesn't mean everything but it sure can help, and if we had home ice in the Finals last year we probably win the Cup.

All they needed was home ice to win the cup?! Crazy. Keep on seeing that repeated the last two weeks, but I don’t see how they score more in game 7 just because of home ice.

 

[McDNicks17]

Why would the Blues pay the acquisition cost to throw a young, developing defenseman into deep water situational play? When they don't have to with strong veteran guys Leddy and Suter able to insulate and allow the young player to establish a consistent NHL game. Funny how Parayko has 'become' elite again after alot of advance stats were pegging him as washed a couple years ago.

Of course his offense is going to regress. It's not sustainable. This season is about growing a reliable 18-20 minute middle pair defenseman (currently 19:47 avg toi) who can support PK and PP. School's in session this season with a quality old veteran blueline group to help stabilize and grow a young d-man game who is only moving into peak performance years.

I'm more concerned with the advance stats promise of Emberson 'easily' replacing Ceci with tough middle pair ice-time and responsibilities. In both younger players situations, best to manage expectations and play them within situations to succeed.

It's not that they should, but there seems to be a narrative that he's playing a big role for the Blues and excelling. In reality he's getting more sheltered minutes than the Oilers bottom pairing defensemen are because he's getting slaughtered by elite comp.

That's not really the type of player the Oilers are missing this year.

 

[AM]

I like Holloway as a player.

But I think he’s more replaceable than what Broberg could have brought, in terms of team needs.

We essentially have Jeff skinner and Arviddsson that theoritically should have been more than enough to replace hollowaysnproduction.

But arvidsson has failed miserably and I would rather have both Holloway and broberg over the two

How does arvidsson stop our power play from scoring?

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

It's not that they should, but there seems to be a narrative that he's playing a big role for the Blues and excelling. In reality he's getting more sheltered minutes than the Oilers bottom pairing defensemen are because he's getting slaughtered by elite comp.

That's not really the type of player the Oilers are missing this year.

So many posters have outsized expectations for this player and young defenseman broadly. Have to live with ups and downs that come with the position. We've lived through it with Bouchard. It's a damn hard position. Broberg playing a consistent 18-20 minutes with support specialty teams is a win. The fact that he's contributing counting points early is a bonus.

An NHL coach will become an AHL coach quickly if they can't figure out how to maximize their roster deployment to leverage strength and mitigate weakness. Even more ridiculous if they play their young players in situations that require veteran experience and certainty. There's no shortage of information available to NHL coaches that extend beyond public sites to guide common sense deployment decisions.

The Oilers could use a better second unit PK option and frankly more stability with its second pair RD. Whether the latter was plugged by Broberg, Ceci or Kulak moved to 2RD in fantasyland stuff. It highly unlikely the Oilers off-season Plan A pre-August 12 was to have Broberg play behind a platoon of journeymen #7-8 d-men. The reactive Plan B is struggling with the team even trying to plug the middle pair issue with Darnell Nurse. Unfortunately the advance analytic promise said about Emberson hasn't translated into reality.