The Jim Benning and Management Megathread - CAD got you down? He has you covered

[Bourne Endeavor]

The '3 coaches thing' is a pile of unmitigated garbage. That it keeps getting repeated is ridiculous.

He clearly 'got it' under Tortorella, who was very complementary of him at the end of last season, when he was our best forward and leading scorer during the 2nd half.

Vigneault he played 50 games under at age 20-21, at a time when he should probably have been in the AHL. He had some typical young player growing pains during the period, but absolutely nothing unusual for a rookie pro.

You also have to factor two of those seasons saw Kassian recovering from injuries, and getting a ridiculously long suspension. The notion three coaches just couldn't get through to him is just an excuse to try and justify an otherwise abysmal trade.

 

[MS]

What I don't get is the people who tear down Lack to support Miller and Markstrom, saying he's nothing but a middle-of-the-road, average starter at best.

If what Eddie Lack did was only good enough to be called average, then people must have some pretty insane expectations of what they're expecting Markstrom to do to make him the one to choose over Lack.

The one that blows my mind is when people say that Lack 'only has the upside of a journeyman starter' or some such thing.

Like, we JUST watched Lack put up a .930 mark over 1/3 of a season to carry us into the playoffs. His level of play over that stretch was Vezina-nominee worthy, the sort of play that only Carey Price in a generational year was able to top last year.

Now, obviously there's a big difference between doing it for 1/3 of a season and a whole season. And maybe he won't. But he very clearly has the 'upside' to be a top-end NHL goalie, as all he has to do is take a level of play he's already shown and do it over a longer period. And that's exponentially more likely than the chances a .898 career guy like Markstrom turns into a top-5 NHL starter.

It's like watching Horvat score 30 points in the last 30 games of the season or something along those lines and then claiming that he has '40 point upside'. While at the same time claiming that Nicklas Jensen has 70-point upside because of his 'better pedigree'. It's just bizarre.

 

[tantalum]

I agree on both counts.

A lot was made about the SJ game, but I don’t see it as a concern. Quite the opposite.


etc...

I personally find that the problem surrounding goaltender discussion tends to be in this vein. We tend to concentrate on "was the goaltender at fault or not".

I don't think that is the only one should be talking about when it comes to a quality NHL goaltender. It would seem to me that at this level such quality goaltenders should be expected to save "every" shot that one would call a bad goal (obviously mistakes are made). It's the basic entry level requirement for the job IMO. To be talking about high numbers of bad goals means the guy isn't qualified for the position to begin with...again my opinion. The other aspect is very much looking at the saves we would say he has no business making. How many perfect snipes etc does he take away. When it comes to Markstrom thus far in his NHL career he hasn't been good on either front.

 

[MS]

You also have to factor two of those seasons saw Kassian recovering from injuries, and getting a ridiculously long suspension. The notion three coaches just couldn't get through to him is just an excuse to try and justify an otherwise abysmal trade.

Absolutely.

Total spin from people in denial. And just completely, utterly false.

 

[MS]

I personally find that the problem surrounding goaltender discussion tends to be in this vein. We tend to concentrate on "was the goaltender at fault or not".

I don't think that is the only one should be talking about when it comes to a quality NHL goaltender. It would seem to me that at this level such quality goaltenders should be expected to save "every" shot that one would call a bad goal (obviously mistakes are made). It's the basic entry level requirement for the job IMO. To be talking about high numbers of bad goals means the guy isn't qualified for the position to begin with...again my opinion. The other aspect is very much looking at the saves we would say he has no business making. How many perfect snipes etc does he take away. When it comes to Markstrom thus far in his NHL career he hasn't been good on either front.

Yeah, it's the old 'Dan Cloutier defense'.

"But they were tough shots!"

So what? Scoring chances and tough shots happen several times in every NHL game. A good NHL goalie will stop 7-8 out of every 10 'difficult' shots. If you're only stopping 5-6, you suck ... even if you aren't allowing any 'weak' goals.

 

[Ho Borvat]

You also have to factor two of those seasons saw Kassian recovering from injuries, and getting a ridiculously long suspension. The notion three coaches just couldn't get through to him is just an excuse to try and justify an otherwise abysmal trade.

An abysmal trade and poor player development.

Imagine if Virtanen makes the NHL... and Willie Desjardin gets fired at the end of Jakes first year... and then we hire the next coach who only lasts 1 season... And then we hire a 3rd coach in JV's 3rd year.

Do you expect him to ever develop properly in an environment like that? The argument that 3 coaches "couldn't get to him" isn't a knock on Kassian, its a lack on this organization as a stable learning environment for young players.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

I'm not really on the Eddie Lack hype train but I do agree the return was absurd.

 

[Ho Borvat]

I'm not really on the Eddie Lack hype train but I do agree the return was absurd.

The logic behind an Eddie Lack trade (before it happened) was "Well, we can't move Miller and we'll probably get decent value for Lack so I guess it makes sense"

Turns out we could have moved Miller, and the return on Lack was garbage.

 

[MS]

The logic behind an Eddie Lack trade (before it happened) was "Well, we can't move Miller and we'll probably get decent value for Lack so I guess it makes sense"

Turns out we could have moved Miller, and the return on Lack was garbage.

A buyout of Miller made more sense than trading Lack.

 

[Ho Borvat]

A buyout of Miller made more sense than trading Lack.

But if we bought out Ryan Miller, how would we afford the raises to Dorsett and Sbisa? How would we have been able to find the cap space to trade Kassian for Prust??? How would we have been able to give Brandon Sutter a raise before even playing a game for us!!!!!!!

A Ryan Miller buyout clearly wouldn't have allowed us to make all these moves to make us a playoff team

 

[MS]

But if we bought out Ryan Miller, how would we afford the raises to Dorsett and Sbisa? How would we have been able to find the cap space to trade Kassian for Prust??? How would we have been able to give Brandon Sutter a raise before even playing a game for us!!!!!!!

A Ryan Miller buyout clearly wouldn't have allowed us to make all these moves to make us a playoff team

Buying out Miller would have seen us have better goaltending than what we have now at less cap hit. It's really astonishing how bad that trade was.

 

[I am toxic]

I personally find that the problem surrounding goaltender discussion tends to be in this vein. We tend to concentrate on "was the goaltender at fault or not".

I don't think that is the only one should be talking about when it comes to a quality NHL goaltender. It would seem to me that at this level such quality goaltenders should be expected to save "every" shot that one would call a bad goal (obviously mistakes are made). It's the basic entry level requirement for the job IMO. To be talking about high numbers of bad goals means the guy isn't qualified for the position to begin with...again my opinion. The other aspect is very much looking at the saves we would say he has no business making. How many perfect snipes etc does he take away. When it comes to Markstrom thus far in his NHL career he hasn't been good on either front.

Fair enough, I only disagree with the bolded, as I already described.

In any event, I believe we will get to find out, as I don't really see Vancouver acquiring another goalie this year, so Markstrom will get a lot of looks. Hopefully WD will not mishandle him as badly as he mishandled Lack (which to Lack's credit he overcame).

 

[thepuckmonster]

Now's a good time for people to review the board specific rules. Enough with the targeted insults and fanbase bashing.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1875707

 

[Ryp37]

Fried mans 30 thoughts

17. In July, Canucks GM Jim Benning said he could have traded Ryan Miller. Best intel I could find indicated the likeliest possibility was San Jose. The Sharks went out and got Martin Jones, as Benning is committed to Miller.

That would have been hilarious, traded the worse goalie to a team in the division and get assets for it? **** Jim

 

[VanillaCoke]

Fried mans 30 thoughts

17. In July, Canucks GM Jim Benning said he could have traded Ryan Miller. Best intel I could find indicated the likeliest possibility was San Jose. The Sharks went out and got Martin Jones, as Benning is committed to Miller.

That would have been hilarious, traded the worse goalie to a team in the division and get assets for it? **** Jim

If it was a 1st rounder I swear to god.....

 

[ProstheticConscience]

If it was a 1st rounder I swear to god.....

Oh please. The best JB could get for Lack was a 3rd and a 7th. For Miller he'd probably have to send someone over to clear out the Shark Tank's empty bottles or something.

 

[Josepho]

If it was a 1st rounder I swear to god.....

I really doubt that. San Jose overpaid for Jones because they were very fond of him and he was their priority. Doug Wilson says so in the video below at around the 1:50 mark. Not to mention, he sounds intelligent, doesn't he?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Makes you wonder if the two seconds rumors that cropped up with Bieksa had meant to be one for him and one for Miller. If so...

 

[Intangibos]

Makes you wonder if the two seconds rumors that cropped up with Bieksa had meant to be one for him and one for Miller. If so...

This makes sense...

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

This makes sense...

I'm kind of glad this is all just wild speculation. If it came out we could have gotten a 2nd for Miller but chose to take a 3rd for Lack. Well, let's just say a part of me would love to see Benning try weaseling out of that.

 

[Ainec]

Miller can be an elite goaltender until the age of 40. Vancouver saw what he could do in the 2010 Olympics.

He could also mentor Markstrom who we can trade for a 2nd and then mentor my pick, Demko

 

[Intangibos]

I'm kind of glad this is all just wild speculation. If it came out we could have gotten a 2nd for Miller but chose to take a 3rd for Lack. Well, let's just say a part of me would love to see Benning try weaseling out of that.

I can't believe that SJ would take on 10.5m in capspace from Bieksa and Miller sending back 2 picks. We'd have to take a cap dump or something, wouldn't we?

Honestly, I don't think Benning has the skills to get a 2nd round pick for Miller. While the scenario makes sense, I'm not sure. Could it have been Miller, Bieksa and Kassian for two 2nds? Christ, that would still be better than what we got.

 

[Ainec]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Benning turns down a 2nd rounder for Miller.

I don't think that ever happened but yeah I'd bet a good amount of $ that if it was offered Jim hangs up.

This is the guy that got back a 2nd for Garrison, a late 1st for Kesler, -5th round for Kassian, 3rd for Lack. Gave up a 3rd for Dorsett (fwiw nothing wrong with that).

And one of the first player he acquires after getting cap space from the Garrison trade was Ryan Miller. He sees a #1 6M guy, why would that be worth a 2nd?

 

[Cancuks]

The Lack trade was awful. Might as well have kept him and let Markstrom go on waivers - which he may have even cleared. Canucks were not a good team last year, their 100 point season was IMO due to scheduling, playing a very bad Edmonton, Arizona and other teams on the 2nd half of back to back nights. This season they have a way harder schedule. Lack probably won't post good stats due to the team he's playing on. But if he goes to UFA and signs with a legitimate contender watch him get some Vezina votes. He's not Schneider but he is better than Miller. Amazed at the goaltenders we have traded away in the past two years. Would love it if Markstrom breaks out and posts ridiculous numbers and see him traded away at the draft next season.

 

[JuniorNelson]

I'm kind of glad this is all just wild speculation. If it came out we could have gotten a 2nd for Miller but chose to take a 3rd for Lack. Well, let's just say a part of me would love to see Benning try weaseling out of that.

It wouldn't take any weaseling at all. Benning has been very up front that he didn't want Lack. He signed Miller, then used Lack sparsely until Miller's injury. They showed no love for him at any juncture. Rushing an unready Miller back in the playoffs meant Lack's time was ended.

Lack crapping out in the playoffs was still an open wound when Benning saw Markstrom go on a run in the AHL. So, he acted. It's all pretty transparent. Benning isn't machiavellian, moving wheels within wheels. He is reactionary. Where Burke would drive a player to the airport, Benning throws all the player's **** out onto the lawn. He didn't seek return, he wanted closure.

This is how Benning operated all Summer, asshurt about the Calgary series, offloading playoff fails.