The Jarmo Thread

[majormajor]

So how does saying Jarmo got lucky in the trade for Saad expose bias? I was just saying don't add that to the plus side of his goods and bads.

If you're going to have a good/bad ledger
AND judge everything with hindsight
AND count all of Jarmo's mistakes
AND not count when he takes advantage of other GMs mistakes
then he's going to look bad, as would almost all GMs.

 

[LoneFunyan]

For those who continually list the Murray and Nutivaara trades on their litany of evils, please consider what these players would be paid if they were to hit UFA. Murray is most likely taking a paycut. We really like those players (and want them back) but the idea that they were significant assets at those cap hits is baloney. Jarmo knew the market for them and got what he could. Perhaps he could have gotten more if he waited but he didn't want to run the risk of being stuck with them in the middle of the league's emergency cap crunch, and that ought to be very understandable.

So here's the thing about the trades of Nutivaara and Murray:
1. Any argument that includes "they were overpaid for what they were" has to acknowledge who overpaid them.
2. The market for them was set based not only on who they were, but what they were paid. See item 1.

There are also salient arguments to be made that Murray's value to us, as a steadying presence anywhere in the line-up, was more valuable than his actual trade value.

Additionally, the evidence is that they were not moved due to cap crunch issues (which, again if that is the reason they were moved, see item 1). It's more likely they were moved to create cap space to protect against a PLD offer sheet. That, I feel, exposes a problem in terms of how he handled the PLD situation that I don't think is worth getting into again.

Frankly, while I don't consider the Nutivaara and Murray trades good, acceptable, understandable or whatever and place them in negative side of Jarmo's ledger, they're nowhere close to the top of the list. They're just two straws on the camel's back amongst many larger things.

 

[LoneFunyan]

If you're going to have a good/bad ledger
AND judge everything with hindsight
AND count all of Jarmo's mistakes
AND not count when he takes advantage of other GMs mistakes
then he's going to look bad, as would almost all GMs.

Not to mention counting "bad luck" against him (picks that don't pan out) but not counting "good luck" for him.

I'm no Jarmo fan, but finding a way to discount the Panarin trade is dubious at best.

 

[EDM]

Let me take a minute with this idea of "Bias". What the hell does that mean? You mean the person saying something derogatory is "biased" against Jarmo? Of course the poster is biased they are posting a complaint about Jarmo so they obviously have an opinion that is negative on Jarmo. Now, let's take a person who defends Jarmo? Does this mean they are not "biased" because they put up with and make excuses for all of Jarmo's block head actions?

Take the guy who asked what Jarmo was supposed to do when he knew that Torts wanted out? The poster asks if Jarmo was supposed to go find a new coach? OF COURSE THAT IS WHAT THE GM IS SUPPOSED TO DO: GO FIND A NEW COACH. Instead Jarmo Maclean decided to stick with the old coach who did not want to be here and have his young guys like Tex and Bem waste a year of their development trying to play for a coach who was not going to be here the following year and who had a very specific style of coaching that would not apply the following year. I am sorry, but how friggin stupid does a GM have to be to waste a year of the development of young players. And while this year was spinning down the drain did it ever occur to Jarmo Maclean that maybe he should go out and look for a new coach who could step in and finish the year with the young guys and use that time to sort out issues like which of Tex, Ros and Domi and Stenlund should be prioritized as developing centers for the following year. Of course not, that is what a competent GM would do. So this off season only one person, Jarmo will be tasked with sorting out and deciding our center situation. Since this is the same guy who created the situation, do you want Jarmo Maclean making that decision on his own?

For me Jarmo Maclean is almost the last person I would want making that decision. In fact the only person I would trust less than Jarmo would be Britney Spears.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Isn't the point that if you don't protect Hartnell, you can put Anderson on your protected list and the negotiation with LV becomes "don't take Korpisalo"? Since that player was not thought to be as coveted or important as Anderson, you don't have to offer as much to make that bargain - maybe if we could protect Anderson, we only have to give up X+, where we gave up X++ to have LV steer clear of the unprotected Anderson.

Perhaps the argument is that Jarmo made the deal too early, when Hartnell appeared to have value higher than what he did by the time the draft took place. Maybe by holding out on an agreement with LV he'd have had more options and better perspective on where the valuable pieces were?

I don't know - much as I fault Jarmo for other things, this feels like a "push" at best. Maybe it could have been a better deal if this and that and the other thing but there's too many moving targets to line up to relitigate it.

I don’t think it’s a push, I think it’s a non issue. At least with how I think it’s being presented.

If I get this right , people are mad that jarmo chose not to protect Anderson and get Hartnell to waive his NMC or if he refused, buy him out before hand so we could protect Anderson. Which I mean, fine, but the whole issue is Jarmo and McPhee had this deal in place during the regular season. It was already set in stone and good to go. They knew they were getting karlsson. And we knew korpisalo Anderson and JJ were safe.

If you want to criticize that decision, I think that’s fair. However I will point out most people were good with it at the time (me included). But if you’re criticizing the trade/trade negotiations I really don’t get that kind of thinking since the deal was done months before hand. The protection list was a formality.

 

[NotWendell]

I actually think Saad for two years of Panarin was a good trade.

 

[NotWendell]

I don’t think it’s a push, I think it’s a non issue. At least with how I think it’s being presented.

If I get this right , people are mad that jarmo chose not to protect Anderson and get Hartnell to waive his NMC or if he refused, buy him out before hand so we could protect Anderson. Which I mean, fine, but the whole issue is Jarmo and McPhee had this deal in place during the regular season. It was already set in stone and good to go. They knew they were getting karlsson. And we knew korpisalo Anderson and JJ were safe.

If you want to criticize that decision, I think that’s fair. However I will point out most people were good with it at the time (me included). But if you’re criticizing the trade/trade negotiations I really don’t get that kind of thinking since the deal was done months before hand. The protection list was a formality.

The problem wasn't totally what he did in that situation. It's how he put himself in that position in the first place. In addition to how he handled Anderson and the Hartnell buyout, I recall Korpisalo had shown no real true indications he was going to cut it as a #1 goalie in the NHL. In fact, he still hasn't.

 

[CBJx614]

The problem wasn't totally what he did in that situation. It's how he put himself in that position in the first place. In addition to how he handled Anderson and the Hartnell buyout, I recall Korpisalo had shown no real true indications he was going to cut it as a #1 goalie in the NHL. In fact, he still hasn't.

Korpi was stuck behind Bob and was never going to get a true look as a starter with Bob here. Korpi had shown many glimpses, but never had the opportunity..

 

[DJA]

Jarmo extended:

 

[LoneFunyan]

Let me take a minute with this idea of "Bias". What the hell does that mean? You mean the person saying something derogatory is "biased" against Jarmo?

Bias is when you hate the chef at the restaurant, and as a result you can't admit that the meal you just had was good.

There's literally no way to spin the acquisition of Panarin as anything other than a huge win for Jarmo. It's impossible.

So when someone suggests that Jarmo can't be given credit for that trade because it only happened because some other GM had cap issues, that's pretty clearly the thought-product of someone who can no longer objectively evaluate the subject. By this logic, if we were to acquire Eichel, it would not be via any agency in favor of Jarmo, it would only be because of how things are in Buffalo. And then eventually it would turn in a net negative because we're tired of hearing how Jarmo pulled off the Eichel trade.

You think Jarmo needs to go. I do as well. That doesn't have to mean literally everything he's done in his tenure was bad.

 

[GoJackets1]

Still can’t take anyone who says “Jarmo MacLean” seriously. Also, that contract extension is sure to rustle some jimmies. Lol

 

[DJA]

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

So when someone suggests that Jarmo can't be given credit for that trade because it only happened because some other GM had cap issues, that's pretty clearly the thought-product of someone who can no longer objectively evaluate the subject.

There is also the flip side of that where we were told that we had cap flexibility to use against teams who had cap issues last summer and then never did. Cap issues may be a motivator to move a player but you still have to get a deal done.

 

[MAHJ71]

Extending Jarmo through 24-25 is certainly interesting given the upcoming roster decisions and fallout of those decisions. Was it really necessary?

I'm assuming it was done to prevent him from being pissed off that Davidson was returning with power over him... but I'd rather have waited to see how the next 12 months play out...

 

[LoneFunyan]

There is also the flip side of that where we were told that we had cap flexibility to use against teams who had cap issues last summer and then never did. Cap issues may be a motivator to move a player but you still have to get a deal done.

To some extent I agree - I'm so tired of hearing "we'll take advantage of teams who are cap strapped" and then nothing comes of it. They always seem to find ways to make it work without resorting to pennies-on-the-dollar sell offs of useful assets. Although, ironically, Panarin appears to have been one of those.

That said, it takes two to tango on a trade. Maybe Jarmo's burning up the phones and can't make something work. We have no idea. I don't like the idea of evaluating him based on something I don't know but presume to the negative. There's, IMO, plenty to indict him on that we do know of.

And now we can debate this until 2024. hooray.

 

[jonlin]

Extending Jarmo through 24-25 is certainly interesting given the upcoming roster decisions and fallout of those decisions. Was it really necessary?

I'm assuming it was done to prevent him from being pissed off that Davidson was returning with power over him... but I'd rather have waited to see how the next 12 months play out...

I really doubt this^

Davidson&Kekäläinen together built up St.Louis from scratch. Kekäläinen was head of the scouting department drafting Pietrangelo, Backes, Perron and Berglund. I actually believe Davidson came back only if JK is there building the team with him. They have a history together and are probably a good team.

 

[MAHJ71]

I really doubt this^

Davidson&Kekäläinen together built up St.Louis from scratch. Kekäläinen was head of the scouting department drafting Pietrangelo, Backes, Perron and Berglund. I actually believe Davidson came back only if JK is there building the team with him. They have a history together and are probably a good team.

Then exactly what has JK done to warrant an extension at such a crucial time for the franchise???

 

[jonlin]

Then exactly what has JK done to warrant an extension at such a crucial time for the franchise???

I believe ownership and Davidson know a lot more about JK:s abilities to be a GM and what he has done than any random poster here. I really doubt he got an extension only "to prevent him from being pissed off that Davidson was returning with power over him... "
This isnt some 3yr olds playground.

 

[MAHJ71]

I believe ownership and Davidson know a lot more about JK:s abilities to be a GM and what he has done than any random poster here. I really doubt he got an extension only "to prevent him from being pissed off that Davidson was returning with power over him... "
This isnt some 3yr olds playground.

Again though, my question is what has he done to warrant an extension at this current time in the franchise?

We have make or break decisions coming up and we're going to extend him through 24-25? Thats highly questionable IMO.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Extending Jarmo through 24-25 is certainly interesting given the upcoming roster decisions and fallout of those decisions. Was it really necessary?

I'm assuming it was done to prevent him from being pissed off that Davidson was returning with power over him... but I'd rather have waited to see how the next 12 months play out...

He essentially got publicly demoted. I think it was necessary

 

[MAHJ71]

He essentially got publicly demoted. I think it was necessary

Necessary for what? Nothing really changes besides Davidson coming back in to help and having authority. He still needs to get this upcoming summer, coach, Jones, Werenski, Laine etc decisions right... his contract wasn't close to expiring.

Extend him after he successfully navigates us through these next 12 months.. the timing was not right.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

This means Tortorella is going to come back now, right?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Necessary for what? Nothing really changes besides Davidson coming back in to help and having authority. He still needs to get this upcoming summer, coach, Jones, Werenski, Laine etc decisions right... his contract wasn't close to expiring.

Extend him after he successfully navigates us through these next 12 months.. the timing was not right.

At the end of the day I don’t think the timing really matters. JD isn’t firing Jarmo unless ownership tells him to

 

[CBJx614]

Everyone loves to shit on Jarmo but I've yet to see anyone put a realistic name up for a replacement.

Just remember, grass ain't always greener on the other side.

 

[majormajor]

Again though, my question is what has he done to warrant an extension at this current time in the franchise?

I think JD and ownership/Priest think Jarmo is the best person for the job, that simple.

He has the natural acumen for some aspects of the job, obviously, and can learn from his mistakes. He's the one they want regardless of whether the team goes down the rebuilding path or the ramp it up path.

The timing of the extension is perhaps just a simple signal of confidence, they've probably never doubted Jarmo was the guy.