The Irony of HF Boards

[diceman934]

Very few people on here seem to be able to comprehend that a rebuild, retool, rewhatever can take ten to fifteen years, he'll could be even longer. Of course no ownership or management group would ever admit that to the fans.

These people criticize Burke for saying it can be done in less than 5, but don't realize a real rebuild can take two years or fifteen. It's impossible to predict. No two builds are the same. It's an immature understanding of what it takes to get an organization from zero to hero.

In the Sundin era we had no farm system because we didn't need one. We didn't have an ownership group that understood what changes were coming in the game. left us with our pants down. Both Burke and Nonis have done a lot of good rebuilding our farm system, as evident by the Marlies steady success. You need to have years and years of drafting and signing young talent that can eventually push your nhlers out of jobs. If we had 4 or 5 years of crazy drafts, the turnaround can be quicker. But we have had average drafts. so it takes even longer. We could be closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild.

patience is actually most lacking on the people who criticize and say we have never done a true rebuild. Because those people are the most ignorant regarding what it takes to build up an organization from the ground up. They don't get that even though brash execs have made rediculous claims, the reality is our organization is patiently building from the ground up. It takes time. Could be a 5 year process, could be 10, could be 20. But few have the patience to see it through.

So people who feel Burke did a horrible job generally as a gm have an immature understand of what it takes to rebuild..

May I suggest before tossing around insults that you at the least need to grasp what a rebuild is....it is most certainly not filling your core with retreads that were cast aside on other teams...
No Rebuild can be done in two years....it has not happen since the salary cap and will not again.

A team needs as part of its core a Number 1 Center, a Number 1 Goalie and a Number 1 D man...not a 8M a year scoring winger as the center of your rebuild and a 7M a year #2/3 D man as part of its center pieces. Both are signed for the next 7 & 8 years as core pieces....add to them an often injured one way winger and a soft center as a number one and that is our current core along with a free agent Signing of a winger in hopes that he could provide some leadership. The Leafs have invested in a very flawed group of players as their core and do not have pieces on the Marlies to replace them.

So poor allocation of cap space spent on center pieces of cast offs along with trading away draft picks is not my idea of a rebuild....

 

[Gallagbi]

So people who feel Burke did a horrible job generally as a gm have an immature understand of what it takes to rebuild..

May I suggest before tossing around insults that you at the least need to grasp what a rebuild is....it is most certainly not filling your core with retreads that were cast aside on our teams...
No Rebuild can be done in two years....it has not happen since the salary cap and will not again.

A team needs as part of its core a Number 1 Center, a Number 1 Goalie and a Number 1 D man...not a 8M a year scoring winger as the center of your rebuild and a 7M a year #2/3 D man as part of its center pieces. Both are signed for the next 7 & 8 years as core pieces....add to them an often injured one way winger and a soft center as a number one and that is our current core along with a free agent Signing of a winger in hopes that he could provide some leadership. The Leafs have invested in a very flawed group of players as their core and do not have pieces on the Marlies to replace them.

So poor allocation of cap space spent on center pieces of cast offs along with trading away draft picks is not my idea of a rebuild....

Depends what you mean by a "done rebuild". Burke added Selanne, Niedermayer, Beauchemin, Pronger, Moen, all within a 2 year span to win the cup in Anaheim, which was under a cap system.

Boston changed the majority of their core within 2-3, some were internal guys like Krecji, Lucic, etc.. others were pieces added during that period like Kessel, Savard, Chara, Thomas, etc..


Most Leafs fans don`t seem to know what they want other than a winner. I`ve never been a big believe on the only 1 way to build a team concept, you can build a team a number of ways. Usually the best GMs are able to sign, trade and draft well.

 

[-DeMo-]

I truly do not want to miss the opportunities that are presented in the next draft.

If this is to be reset around


JVR
Kadri
Berny
MR
JG
Jonny goach
finn
percy and their ilk, then sooner the better for the timeline.

if there was ever a good year to sell some of the older players and bottom out it's this year but my guess is we'll wait another year or 2 and wait till another bad draft year.

 

[egd27]

its gonna be blown up anyways .....shanahan knows too much about the leafs culture from his other contacts to listen to nonis
if he deems u cant win with kessel or phaneuf or anyone else ,they ll be gone,,,,,he didnt endorse those contracts and time wil tell if he does in few weeks,i expect the leafs to make a push for a higher draft pick,popular or not ,u gotta do it

What are you basing your assessment of Shanahan on? Why will he be any different than any other Leaf exec of the past dozen years?

Don't mean to be argumentative but I've seen too many guys brought in to save the organization to believe any of them are up to the job. Especially when they have zero track record.

 

[MajorLeaf]

With the exception of Phil Kessel on the current Maple Leafs roster, the Toronto Maple Leafs has an expansion team roster devoid of any really good prospects in the system.

Here is a comparison of the 1993-94 expansion rosters of the Florida Panthers and 2013-14 Toronto Maple Leafs.

1993-94 Florida Panthers Expansion Year:

Record: 33-34-17 (83 points), Finished 5th in NHL Atlantic Division
Coach: Roger Neilson (33-34-17)

Goals For: 233 (22nd of 26),
Goals Against: 233 (4th of 26)

Top 15 Panthers in Points

Player: Pos: Age: GP: G: A: PTS:
Scott Mellanby RW 27 80 30 30 60
Jesse Belanger C 24 70 17 33 50
Andrei Lomakin LW 29 76 19 28 47
Gord Murphy D 26 84 14 29 43
Brian Skrudland C 30 79 15 25 40
Stu Barnes C 23 59 18 20 38
Dave Lowry LW 28 80 15 22 37
Tom Fitzgerald C 25 83 18 14 32
Brian Benning D 27 73 6 24 30
Bob Kudelski RW 29 44 14 15 29
Mike Hough LW 30 78 6 23 29
Jody Hull RW 24 69 13 13 26
Rob Niedermayer C 19 65 9 17 26
Greg Hawgood D 25 33 2 14 16
Bill Lindsay LW 22 84 6 6 12

Goalies:

Player Pos Age GP W L T/O GA SA SV SV% GAA SO
John Vanbiesbrouck G 30 57 21 25 11 145 1912 1767 .924 2.53 1
Mark Fitzpatrick G 25 28 12 8 6 73 844 771 .914 2.73 1

2013-14 Toronto Maple Leafs

Team Stats:

Record: 38-36-8 (84 points), 6th in NHL Atlantic Division
Coach: Randy Carlyle (38-36-8)

Goals For: 231 (13th of 30),
Goals Against: 256 (26th of 30)

Top 15 Leafs in Points

Player Pos Age GP G A PTS
Phil Kessel RW 26 82 37 43 80
James van Riemsdyk LW 24 80 30 31 61
Nazem Kadri C 23 78 20 30 50
Tyler Bozak C 27 58 19 30 49
Mason Raymond LW 28 82 19 26 45
Joffrey Lupul LW 30 69 22 22 44
Cody Franson D 26 79 5 28 33
Jake Gardiner D 23 80 10 21 31
Dion Phaneuf D 28 80 8 23 31
Morgan Rielly D 19 73 2 25 27
Nikolai Kulemin LW 27 70 9 11 20
Carl Gunnarsson D 27 80 3 14 17
Paul Ranger D 29 53 6 8 14
Dave Bolland C 27 23 8 4 12
David Clarkson RW 29 60 5 6 11

Goalies:

Player Pos Age GP W L T/O GA SA SV SV% GAA SO
Jonathan Bernier G 25 55 26 19 7 139 1788 1649 .922 2.70 1
James Reimer G 25 36 12 16 1 97 1094 997 .911 3.26 1

What is very telling is the two teams had very similar outcomes for points, expansion Florida with 83 points and the current Maple Leafs at 84 points. The goalies for the Panthers had better save percentage, goals against than Bernier and Reimer, although not by much.

Take away Kessel from the roster and the remaining players were either on par or less than the expansion Florida roster in points, especially outside the top six scorers. It’s really bad when an expansion team is comparable to this current Maple Leafs.

What’s even funnier it only took the Florida Panthers three years in 1996 to make the Stanley Cup finals after their expansion. What is the Maple Leafs excuse after all these years to end up still being an expansion team?

Look at the ages between the Maple Leafs current roster and the Panthers expansion roster. Both had the same mix of youth, prime year players with only one player 30 years in the top 15 in scoring. It is uncanny how similar both these teams are in every way.

Brendan Shanahan has his work cut out for him taking this current "expansion" like roster and making the team a contending roster. It took Florida three years to do get into the Finals, let’s see how long it will take this Leafs team.

 

[Gallagbi]

In 93-94, there was 20+ players scoring 90+ points. 13-14 had 1 player Crosby. JVR finished top 40 in scoring, Mellanby would've been around 75th or so.

Tough to compare point totals directly from 20 years ago.

 

[MajorLeaf]

In 93-94, there was 20+ players scoring 90+ points. 13-14 had 1 player Crosby. JVR finished top 40 in scoring, Mellanby would've been around 75th or so.

Tough to compare point totals directly from 20 years ago.

The goaltending save percentage and goals against were weaker 20 years ago as well, and you can see that John Vanbiesbrouck was second overall that year on an expansion team.

What is the explanation for this?

Florida:

Goals For: 233 (22nd of 26),
Goals Against: 233 (4th of 26)

Toronto:

Goals For: 231 (13th of 30),
Goals Against: 256 (26th of 30)

If it was easier to score 20 years ago, then Florida should have more than 233 goals against compared to their 233 goals scored. The Leafs had 256 goals against in an era where scoring is down compared to 20 years ago. This means it would be even worse than thought.

The fact is; both teams finished with almost the same exact points. You can spin it anyway you will but this team is pretty much close to being an expansion team as any.

The proof is in the multiple collapses and bottom finishes in multiple years with only one playoff appearances in nine years. If that is not a record of an expansion team that came into the league nine years ago, then I don’t know what is?

 

[Gallagbi]

I'd absolutely say this team was worse defensively than that FLA team. I'd also say Bieser was better than Bernier and the Leafs had 3-4 better forwards than Mellanby.

That FLA team lacked talent, but had heart and dedicated itself to defense The Leafs are pretty close to the opposite. Outside of total points and a good goalie, I don't see too much similarity.

 

[Ratboy]

**** this team.

 

[Stephen]

I'd absolutely say this team was worse defensively than that FLA team. I'd also say Bieser was better than Bernier and the Leafs had 3-4 better forwards than Mellanby.

That FLA team lacked talent, but had heart and dedicated itself to defense The Leafs are pretty close to the opposite. Outside of total points and a good goalie, I don't see too much similarity.

This is what makes them such a loathsome "team".

They have significantly more talent than their record and results would indicate but it's almost just deserts that they fell apart in such humiliating fashion. This team basically went through most of the season completely unprepared to work hard every game they played and routinely dropped points against Buffalo and Florida.

Hard working blue collar teams with no talent are terrible to watch too, but at least you respect the players for giving it their all. This team? Just a bunch of slackers.

 

[Ratboy]

They're a bunch of wimps.

 

[mikeyz]

What is considered long-term?

2007-08: "Clearing the Slate" scorched Earth.
Result: 83 points & 7th from the bottom in the NHL standings.
Bottom 5 in goals against, and PK% (29th) and 14th in Goals For (231 goals)

2008-09: "It doesn't take 5 years" Rebuild begins.

+ 6 Years/Seasons rebuilding later

2013-14:
Result: 84 points & 8th from the bottom of the league standings.
Bottom 5 in goals against, and PK%(28th) and 14th in Goals For (231 goals).

How long must we still wait for the current rebuild results to start kicking in, as the stats at the beginning of the current 6 year rebuild are virtually the same as the present?.

Exactly.

We are getting frustrated.

 

[p.l.f.]

We deserve better !

 

[hullsy47]

What are you basing your assessment of Shanahan on? Why will he be any different than any other Leaf exec of the past dozen years?

Don't mean to be argumentative but I've seen too many guys brought in to save the organization to believe any of them are up to the job. Especially when they have zero track record.

well shanny knows more about these leafs than we are led to believe......the culture change may be more shocking than most of us expect ......the reason carlyle isnt fired is shanny knows the real problems in the leafs room wasnt carlyle or phaneuf ...
my assessment is my own thoughts along with a few people i talked to during some junior B PLAYOFF games recently......shanny knows more than u think ...and in the end this may play out different than u and i expect....
nonis has some blame here because rumors and inuendos about the leaf culture was here when burke left ,,,,,,he chose to ingnore it .lewieke looks like a fool now ,he ain t happy
no subtle changes will do ,i think its gonna be a shocker

 

[Trapper]

Dennis Bernstein: Kings Mike Richards needs to have a good playoffs to remain with the team.
What do people think?
Bye to Bolland and make a deal for Richards?
He's better suited offensively for the #2 C, brings the same character and 2-way play of Bolland.
A pair of Bozak/Kessel, Richards/JVR in the top 6. Add decent 2-way forwards to both these lines?

 

[-DeMo-]

unless Richards comes almost free his contract is way to big for what he currently provides so no I would have no interest in Mike

 

[HamiltonNHL]

But HFBoards>TML does rule at something !!!

 

[Trapper]

unless Richards comes almost free his contract is way to big for what he currently provides so no I would have no interest in Mike

Richards comes with a cap hit of 5.75/year. Bye Lupul. I'd much rather Richards than Spezza who has never even met his goalies in Ottawa. Plus he's 2 years younger. Richards would be much better back in the East.

 

[-DeMo-]

Richards comes with a cap hit of 5.75/year. Bye Lupul. I'd much rather Richards than Spezza who has never even met his goalies in Ottawa. Plus he's 2 years younger. Richards would be much better back in the East.

of course would never want Spezza on this team, and I'd be fine with Richards just at a cheap price is all I'm saying.

 

[Faltorvo]

Dennis Bernstein: Kings Mike Richards needs to have a good playoffs to remain with the team.
What do people think?
Bye to Bolland and make a deal for Richards?
He's better suited offensively for the #2 C, brings the same character and 2-way play of Bolland.
A pair of Bozak/Kessel, Richards/JVR in the top 6. Add decent 2-way forwards to both these lines?

I would be very hesitant of going after Richards if LA puts him on the market.

The first thing that comes to mind that would cause him to be available IS character issues. The same character flaws that saw him shipped from philly.?

If he can't self motivate in an Olympic year ,on a real cup contender and gets sheltered by Anzy and gets to skate with Carter.?

Something ain't right there.

 

[Faltorvo]

well shanny knows more about these leafs than we are led to believe......the culture change may be more shocking than most of us expect ......the reason carlyle isnt fired is shanny knows the real problems in the leafs room wasnt carlyle or phaneuf ...
my assessment is my own thoughts along with a few people i talked to during some junior B PLAYOFF games recently......shanny knows more than u think ...and in the end this may play out different than u and i expect....
nonis has some blame here because rumors and inuendos about the leaf culture was here when burke left ,,,,,,he chose to ingnore it .lewieke looks like a fool now ,he ain t happy
no subtle changes will do ,i think its gonna be a shocker

I would not put neon dion on that "safe" list if I was you.

and I agree ,there is something in the air.

 

[trentmccleary]

Edmonton's mistakes is that they didn't draft properly. It was forward, after forward, after forward. How many times have people said "oh - the Oilers should have drafted a defenseman instead of a forward?"

They're still assets. Quebec drafted very forward heavy and were able to leverage some of those young forwards to transform their defense and goaltending. They won two Cups largely because of those changes.

It's also not "ooh shiny toy!" in regards to prospects. It's like preparing for winter. right now we've got a decent enough pantry, but there are teams that are stuffed full of prospects.

People have a lot of silly assumptions about prospects on this site. Their greatest importance is that you hope that they can provide cap value before they cash in. In a capped league (ie: $70M), the team that will win will have players worth more than the cap allows. How can you beat a team with E.Staal, Getzlaf/Perry, Malkin/Staal, Kane/Toews, etc on ELC's?

Compare two hypothetical teams:
A - secondary scoring (3 x F's) makes $14M and pots 150 points. Defense corps stinks.
B - secondary scoring (3 x F's) makes $7M and pots 140 points. Defense corps is great.

Things like that cause teams to make or miss the playoffs... win Cups or be out in the 1st round.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

I would be very hesitant of going after Richards if LA puts him on the market.

The first thing that comes to mind that would cause him to be available IS character issues. The same character flaws that saw him shipped from philly.?

If he can't self motivate in an Olympic year ,on a real cup contender and gets sheltered by Anzy and gets to skate with Carter.?

Something ain't right there.

I am not a fan of his game either. He lacks consistency. In fact, I'd rather somehow go after Jeff Carter, but I doubt the Kings will be trading him. Not only is he versatile, but plays a a complete game and would be perfect for Kessel. He's a strong forechecker and would be a reliable finisher in the middle.