The Irony of HF Boards

Ratboy

I made a funny!
Jul 15, 2009
16,855
3,343
What blows my mind is the claims that "this market couldn't handle a full rebuild."

Well what the **** have we been doing the last 10 years? We're still nowhere. Watch these real playoff teams play, they're bigger and better than us, we'd be destroyed.

Our old buy all the FA's approach won't work anymore, not with the cap.

When will our teams management finally adapt?
 

FlareKnight

Registered User
Jun 26, 2006
19,822
1,707
Alberta
I think the only thing that's proven is that people can't handle the Leafs being terrible for all eternity :laugh:.

That people are frustrated with this team should be a given by now. They've tried all sorts of ways to speed their way to a good team and haven't gotten it right yet.

Honestly the OP's argument is a tired one. A lot of bets made on topics that certainly won't be revisited a year from now if wrong.

Right now this team doesn't deserve optimism. You don't blow the series against the Bruins and implode post Olympics this year and get anything like that. Any optimism this team gets they are going to have to earn by actually accomplishing something.
 

Ratboy

I made a funny!
Jul 15, 2009
16,855
3,343
The majority of seats are already bought up by seasons ticket holders and corporate seats, there will always be people there (whether or not they're real fans of the team is another question.)

We can't hit them in their pocket book, so that will never work.

This team has a very fragile ego/confidence level. I think the game 7 collapse ****ed them, which is interesting considering Boston would always key on beating us and shutting down Kessel anyways.

It's like the trade that just keeps coming back to haunt us, even though Kessel is a good player, he's not > than Seguin and Hamilton.

I don't have confidence that Nonis is the man to turn this around, he seems too conservative to me. We need someone to make some big moves and changes, not just to sit on their hands. Decide which way to go, and GO.

This perpetual purgatory just won't do.
 

Ed Belfour

Registered User
Nov 9, 2011
669
4
Toronto
Sorry, thinking that Clarkson can be a 20 goal scorer and useful in any way discredits the whole post.

The Leafs haven't won anything in basically 50 years. The 2013-2014 Leafs looked like a bottom 5 team for most of the season. We finished out of the playoffs for the 10th time in 11 years in a league where more than half of the league gets in. Your solution is to do nothing, stick with the status quo? Let our awful core have yet another year where they will be alright sometimes, miss the playoffs, and then hear another round of excuses as to how they just didn't get the bounces?

Sounds like the Leaf way! Do you work for MLSE?
 

Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
13,178
4,983
GTA or the UK
What blows my mind is the claims that "this market couldn't handle a full rebuild."

Well what the **** have we been doing the last 10 years? We're still nowhere. Watch these real playoff teams play, they're bigger and better than us, we'd be destroyed.

Our old buy all the FA's approach won't work anymore, not with the cap.

When will our teams management finally adapt?

When the totted party line of "this market can't handle a rebuild" I'm less convinced they are talking about the fans, and more convinced that they are tallking about the business side of the brand.

I wonder what sort of cooperate losses the team will endure if it goes several years as one of the team's bottom feeders?

Also - a few bad years of patheticness from this team WILL, whether anyone cares to admit it or not, push fans towards other Toronto teams that are more successful; ie. if the Raptors continue to make the playoffs, or if the Jays ever get their crap together.

FINALLY - Can we as fans handle a rebuild? The way this board has handled Kadri and Gardiner this season makes me so damn fearful for how we would treat a team FULL of young players. We were running Kadri out of town 2 weeks ago
 

Ratboy

I made a funny!
Jul 15, 2009
16,855
3,343
There is just so much wrong with this franchise. Its ineptitude is glorious in its own embarrassing way.

I'm sure there's a bloated front office full of yes man and jackasses who don't have to prove a damn thing to move up in the organization.

The Toronto Maple Leafs resemble big government in the bad sense (USSR, Mao's China), while I wish they would do so in the good sense (Sweden, Denmark).

I don't even know why I drew the comparison, just something that came to me while I was in the can that sounded good.

I'm so ****ing angry at this cause last year I thought we had finally turned a corner, only to **** the bed when it really mattered once again. We have players with a weak constitution, ones who rarely show up when they have to.

A tactical nuke may be the only way to go.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
When the totted party line of "this market can't handle a rebuild" I'm less convinced they are talking about the fans, and more convinced that they are tallking about the business side of the brand.

I wonder what sort of cooperate losses the team will endure if it goes several years as one of the team's bottom feeders?

Also - a few bad years of patheticness from this team WILL, whether anyone cares to admit it or not, push fans towards other Toronto teams that are more successful; ie. if the Raptors continue to make the playoffs, or if the Jays ever get their crap together.

FINALLY - Can we as fans handle a rebuild? The way this board has handled Kadri and Gardiner this season makes me so damn fearful for how we would treat a team FULL of young players. We were running Kadri out of town 2 weeks ago

to the bolded

What are you talking about man

7th last--7th last--2nd last--9th last--5th last--anomaly ---8th last.

that is bottom feeding, I'd say almost the worst kind
 

Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
13,178
4,983
GTA or the UK
to the bolded

What are you talking about man

7th last--7th last--2nd last--9th last--5th last--anomaly ---8th last.

that is bottom feeding, I'd say almost the worst kind

Except that it isn't bottom feeding.

Bottom feeding implies that you finish at the bottom. Those are "near" the bottom. Not the bottom. Makes a big difference when you consider what pick you end up with
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
Except that it isn't bottom feeding.

Bottom feeding implies that you finish at the bottom. Those are "near" the bottom. Not the bottom. Makes a big difference when you consider what pick you end up with

you where talking about corporate losses not draft picks.

I would argue, the enlightened fans would embrace a last place over a 5th/7th last.

Well as long as we still own our pick. ;)
 

Epictetus

YNWA
Jan 2, 2010
16,292
383
Ontario
The Leafs are in a conversation for the worst franchise in all of sports in terms of results. And yet there are still defenders. Being critical does not make you less of a fan or not a fan at all. Like, I just don't understand.
 

Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
13,178
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GTA or the UK
The Leafs are in a conversation for the worst franchise in all of sports in terms of results. And yet there are still defenders. Being critical does not make you less of a fan or not a fan at all. Like, I just don't understand.

I'd extend to comment to include: being critical is APART of being a passionate fan.

I don't think the fans would handle a rebuild for that reason tho - too overly critical. How many fanbases would take on a kid like Kadri and not rip him to shreds like we do, from everything including his hockey IQ to his "arrogance"? Now imagine a whole host of kids on this team? That young core in Edmonton has it easy.
 

TheThrill81*

Guest
The Leafs are in a conversation for the worst franchise in all of sports in terms of results. And yet there are still defenders. Being critical does not make you less of a fan or not a fan at all. Like, I just don't understand.

Not even close. But then again I'm sure with a statement like that it probably means you're new to sports.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
87,252
12,590
Leafs Home Board
Not even close. But then again I'm sure with a statement like that it probably means you're new to sports.

ESPN NAMES MAPLE LEAFS WORST FRANCHISE IN NORTH AMERICA

The Toronto Maple Leafs have hit a new low, at least according to ESPN Magazine.

The American sports publication has branded the Leafs as the worst professional sports franchise in their annual 'Ultimate Standings.'

The ranking, based on a variety of factors include categories such as 'fan relations,' 'ownership,' 'affordability,' 'stadium experience' and 'title track record," amongst others. The Leafs did not crack the Top 100 in any one of the magazine's eight core ranking categories, finishing three spots behind ESPN's next-worst NHL franchise, the New York Islanders.

It is the Leafs' fifth-straight year as the lowest-ranked NHL franchise. In 2011, the Washington Redskins and Cincinnati Bengals were ranked below the Leafs in the overall count.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=404736
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
87,252
12,590
Leafs Home Board
to the bolded

What are you talking about man

7th last--7th last--2nd last--9th last--5th last--anomaly ---8th last.

that is bottom feeding, I'd say almost the worst kind

Except that it isn't bottom feeding.

Bottom feeding implies that you finish at the bottom. Those are "near" the bottom. Not the bottom. Makes a big difference when you consider what pick you end up with

Maybe we need reverse psychology.

When Leafs GMs ice teams they intend and believe they're icing playoff teams, but produce tanking results.

What would happen if they tried to tank intentionally, would they get the opposite of their intent and make the playoffs, or bottom out better?
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
24,464
12,472
Maybe we need reverse psychology.

When Leafs GMs ice teams they intend and believe they're icing playoff teams, but produce tanking results.

What would happen if they tried to tank intentionally, would they get the opposite of their intent and make the playoffs, or bottom out better?

We need to stop signing UFAs, trading for other teams castoffs and draft our core.
We need to shed the overpaid 1 dimensional country club players and forge a solid work ethic identity.
Like someone on this board pointed out, since 2009 the Avs have drafted Duchene,O'Reilly,Landeskog,MacKinnon,Barrie (at the NHL level), while the Leafs have drafted Kadri,Rielly (at the NHL level). Florida is busy drafting Bjugstad,Barkov,Huberdeau,Ekbkad? (at the NHL level). Columbus said enough of Carter and Nash to reshape the team that could compete.
 

hullsy47

Registered User
Dec 7, 2005
6,453
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Burke got those players you mentioned minus bernier btw

its gonna be blown up anyways .....shanahan knows too much about the leafs culture from his other contacts to listen to nonis
if he deems u cant win with kessel or phaneuf or anyone else ,they ll be gone,,,,,he didnt endorse those contracts and time wil tell if he does in few weeks,i expect the leafs to make a push for a higher draft pick,popular or not ,u gotta do it
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
24,464
12,472
its gonna be blown up anyways .....shanahan knows too much about the leafs culture from his other contacts to listen to nonis
if he deems u cant win with kessel or phaneuf or anyone else ,they ll be gone,,,,,he didnt endorse those contracts and time wil tell if he does in few weeks,i expect the leafs to make a push for a higher draft pick,popular or not ,u gotta do it

What happens if this team is around 8th-12th last over the next two years. Like the Flames. What do you think the return would be if we moved Kessel and Phaneuf? Could we get a bunch of solid team pieces and a high draft pick to land that core center?
 

The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
11,364
2,032
Very few people on here seem to be able to comprehend that a rebuild, retool, rewhatever can take ten to fifteen years, he'll could be even longer. Of course no ownership or management group would ever admit that to the fans.

These people criticize Burke for saying it can be done in less than 5, but don't realize a real rebuild can take two years or fifteen. It's impossible to predict. No two builds are the same. It's an immature understanding of what it takes to get an organization from zero to hero.

In the Sundin era we had no farm system because we didn't need one. We didn't have an ownership group that understood what changes were coming in the game. left us with our pants down. Both Burke and Nonis have done a lot of good rebuilding our farm system, as evident by the Marlies steady success. You need to have years and years of drafting and signing young talent that can eventually push your nhlers out of jobs. If we had 4 or 5 years of crazy drafts, the turnaround can be quicker. But we have had average drafts. so it takes even longer. We could be closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild.

patience is actually most lacking on the people who criticize and say we have never done a true rebuild. Because those people are the most ignorant regarding what it takes to build up an organization from the ground up. They don't get that even though brash execs have made rediculous claims, the reality is our organization is patiently building from the ground up. It takes time. Could be a 5 year process, could be 10, could be 20. But few have the patience to see it through.
 

stealth1

Registered User
Aug 28, 2009
2,928
1,438
Niagara, Ontario
Very few people on here seem to be able to comprehend that a rebuild, retool, rewhatever can take ten to fifteen years, he'll could be even longer. Of course no ownership or management group would ever admit that to the fans.

These people criticize Burke for saying it can be done in less than 5, but don't realize a real rebuild can take two years or fifteen. It's impossible to predict. No two builds are the same. It's an immature understanding of what it takes to get an organization from zero to hero.

In the Sundin era we had no farm system because we didn't need one. We didn't have an ownership group that understood what changes were coming in the game. left us with our pants down. Both Burke and Nonis have done a lot of good rebuilding our farm system, as evident by the Marlies steady success. You need to have years and years of drafting and signing young talent that can eventually push your nhlers out of jobs. If we had 4 or 5 years of crazy drafts, the turnaround can be quicker. But we have had average drafts. so it takes even longer. We could be closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild.

patience is actually most lacking on the people who criticize and say we have never done a true rebuild. Because those people are the most ignorant regarding what it takes to build up an organization from the ground up. They don't get that even though brash execs have made rediculous claims, the reality is our organization is patiently building from the ground up. It takes time. Could be a 5 year process, could be 10, could be 20. But few have the patience to see it through.

If they were really building from the ground up they wouldn't be trading away 2nd round picks like they are candy. The management team keeps thinking they are closer then they really are. To properly rebuild most teams load up on as many picks as they can.
 

ECanuck

Registered User
Jan 7, 2010
5,805
1,020
Hamilton
Very few people on here seem to be able to comprehend that a rebuild, retool, rewhatever can take ten to fifteen years, he'll could be even longer. Of course no ownership or management group would ever admit that to the fans.

These people criticize Burke for saying it can be done in less than 5, but don't realize a real rebuild can take two years or fifteen. It's impossible to predict. No two builds are the same. It's an immature understanding of what it takes to get an organization from zero to hero.

In the Sundin era we had no farm system because we didn't need one. We didn't have an ownership group that understood what changes were coming in the game. left us with our pants down. Both Burke and Nonis have done a lot of good rebuilding our farm system, as evident by the Marlies steady success. You need to have years and years of drafting and signing young talent that can eventually push your nhlers out of jobs. If we had 4 or 5 years of crazy drafts, the turnaround can be quicker. But we have had average drafts. so it takes even longer. We could be closer to the beginning than the end of the rebuild.

patience is actually most lacking on the people who criticize and say we have never done a true rebuild. Because those people are the most ignorant regarding what it takes to build up an organization from the ground up. They don't get that even though brash execs have made rediculous claims, the reality is our organization is patiently building from the ground up. It takes time. Could be a 5 year process, could be 10, could be 20. But few have the patience to see it through.

:laugh: Yeah could be a hundred years. Sometimes it could be 500 years! If they rebuild properly they would have a decent young core at the very least. But they just can't do it. They spend to the cap to sing just good enough veteran players to keep them out of the prime picks and bad enough to keep them out of the playoffs. If you keep doing this then YES you will need ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY FIVE THOUSAND YEARS to rebuild/retool.

I have to comment on rebuild/retool and rewhatever. Well this is the major flaw that has been ignored. Retooling works if you have a good build (Core players). Except, this is avoided by leafs because drafting and developing is hard work. It's much easier buying stuff when you are rich.
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
24,464
12,472
If they were really building from the ground up they wouldn't be trading away 2nd round picks like they are candy. The management team keeps thinking they are closer then they really are. To properly rebuild most teams load up on as many picks as they can.

Forget the Edmonton,Colorado,Florida or whatever model for the time being. The one thing I agree with CyNick is that yes it could be 2-15 years. Since 2008, it's been 7. How many core players, real core players have we found. Have we drafted?
Now I completely agree with your post.
Stop trading picks, stop wasting cap space on players we aren't ready for and stockpile as many picks as you can. The more picks you have the better chance you can find those core players.
No matter the preferred rebuild method (call it whatever you like), what do all the teams in the playoffs have in common? They drafted their core. Once you find your core then you are making trades and signing compliment pieces. We traded for a core from teams that already had one and were able to deem these players tradeable.
 

rrc1967

Registered User
Jan 9, 2014
2,290
6
Houston Texas
Very few people on here seem to be able to comprehend that a rebuild, retool, rewhatever can take ten to fifteen years, he'll could be even longer. Of course no ownership or management group would ever admit that to the fans.

you are grasping at straws in a league dominated by players around the age of 26-27, and elite talent less than that.

the rebuild plan starts to break after around 7 or so years.
 

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