Salary Cap: The Impending Cap Ceiling Issue

russ4king

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Fair enough. We just get more than our fair share of "no, you non-traditional hockey market bumpkins don't understand, you HAVE to trade us [core player] for scraps because you're otherwise doomed" silliness, and getting these sorts of old topics rehashed in this manner is frequently a big fat warning sign indicating more of the same. ;)

Sorry I didn't think I came across that way, and I apologize if I did. Clb does have options to make it work. In my eyes moving Hartnell or Atkinson will create some much needed flexibility. I do think Jones will sign long term...8 yrs..in the 5-6m per range. That would be a good deal for both parties. The Jenner contract really helped out the cap space the next couple years.

Again I just find it fascinating what fans think when the reality of the cap comes into discussion.

Kind of off topic....but Same thing goes with people saying how many teams will be throwing 10-11m dollar/year contracts at Stamkos...with the cap crisis looming...I don't see it happening. Nor do I think he is worth it. But still interesting to hear people's POV.
 

Xoggz22

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Mar 4, 2002
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Thing is, it isn't critical, yet, as is being implied. Until we know the structure of what Jones might want there can be belief in a bridge deal and not have to worry about moving anyone. Not ideal but not crippling as suggested. Bettman has mentioned, I believe (on phone So can't look up easily for link) the cap going up possibly $3M even in the tough current climate. That would be huge but even without, as long as there is no reduction, which I don't see the nhlpa allowing, CBJ can support a Jones bridge and short term for Karlsson. Replacing Prout will be easy at a minimum contract. CBJ won't be a UFA player either.

I don't see doom and gloom at this point. Not ideal for CBJ but not a death nail either.
 

Cyclones Rock

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The elephant in the room is the lack of flexibility this very mediocre team has. It has $66m committed to next season and $59 million to the 2017-18 season. 2018-19 already has $39m allotted. Other teams which have the money committed to 2018-19 in the Jackets range have players like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Perry, Kopitar, Toews and bonafide elite players signed. Not a bunch of midling top 6 forwards and injured goalies locked up.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/bluejackets

The CBJ have more allotted to 2017-18, than Chicago, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Dallas, New York Rangers, Washington and Anaheim. I didn't check any other teams. Suffice to say that having more money committed to the cap for a bottom feeding team two years from now than all of these Cup contending teams is a very dismal situation.
 

Cyclones Rock

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^Expansion draft, bro.

Oh, ye of great optimism:)

You are putting a great deal of faith in something that may or may not happen that may or may not provide any cap relief to the CBJ. A hypothetical dependent upon another hypothetical.
 

Viqsi

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The elephant in the room is the lack of flexibility this very mediocre team has. It has $66m committed to next season and $59 million to the 2017-18 season. 2018-19 already has $39m allotted. Other teams which have the money committed to 2018-19 in the Jackets range have players like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Perry, Kopitar, Toews and bonafide elite players signed. Not a bunch of midling top 6 forwards and injured goalies locked up.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/bluejackets

The CBJ have more allotted to 2017-18, than Chicago, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Dallas, New York Rangers, Washington and Anaheim. I didn't check any other teams. Suffice to say that having more money committed to the cap for a bottom feeding team two years from now than all of these Cup contending teams is a very dismal situation.
I think you're seriously kidding yourself if you think Pittsburgh, Dallas, or the Rangers are "cup contending" right now, or at the same level as teams like Chicago and LA. Hell, Anaheim's questionable, and Washington doesn't have the track record yet (tho they look really good, admittedly).

It's not about having Big Names. It's about getting the right mix. Get the right mix and compete, and Big Name status will follow.
 

Cyclones Rock

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I think you're seriously kidding yourself if you think Pittsburgh, Dallas, or the Rangers are "cup contending" right now, or at the same level as teams like Chicago and LA. Hell, Anaheim's questionable, and Washington doesn't have the track record yet (tho they look really good, admittedly).

It's not about having Big Names. It's about getting the right mix. Get the right mix and compete, and Big Name status will follow.



Anaheim has won 11 straight and might have the best record in hockey since their dismal start. They are cup competitors this season. The NYR are 7th overall in points and Dallas is 3rd in points-they are both in the mix. Pittsburgh might be a stretch. In any case, all are much better than the CBJ. All have more cap room than the CBJ two years out. All have elite players.

If you really don't think that Washington is a legit Cup contender...cmon!
 
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major major

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Feb 18, 2013
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The elephant in the room is the lack of flexibility this very mediocre team has. It has $66m committed to next season and $59 million to the 2017-18 season. 2018-19 already has $39m allotted. Other teams which have the money committed to 2018-19 in the Jackets range have players like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Perry, Kopitar, Toews and bonafide elite players signed. Not a bunch of midling top 6 forwards and injured goalies locked up.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/bluejackets

The CBJ have more allotted to 2017-18, than Chicago, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Dallas, New York Rangers, Washington and Anaheim. I didn't check any other teams. Suffice to say that having more money committed to the cap for a bottom feeding team two years from now than all of these Cup contending teams is a very dismal situation.

Most of those contracts could be easily moved.
 

EspenK

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Sep 25, 2011
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The elephant in the room is the lack of flexibility this very mediocre team has. It has $66m committed to next season and $59 million to the 2017-18 season. 2018-19 already has $39m allotted. Other teams which have the money committed to 2018-19 in the Jackets range have players like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Perry, Kopitar, Toews and bonafide elite players signed. Not a bunch of midling top 6 forwards and injured goalies locked up.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/bluejackets

The CBJ have more allotted to 2017-18, than Chicago, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Dallas, New York Rangers, Washington and Anaheim. I didn't check any other teams. Suffice to say that having more money committed to the cap for a bottom feeding team two years from now than all of these Cup contending teams is a very dismal situation.

While your facts are probably correct the question is which deals shouldn't have been made at the time they were made? Collectively I agree that our cap is not good but I'm not sure there are deals which could have been avoided.

The UFA market is drying up as more and more teams lock up their good players earlier and earlier.

The cap hasn't increased like anticipated.

Bob's health could not have been foreseen.

Taking on Clarkson's deal was a complete disaster.

Hartnell is still earning his money.

Tyutin slowed down a bit earlier than hoped.

Foligno - I was against that one before he had a career year. Now that he is back to his normal production I worry it is too long and for too much. Others will disagree because of all the intangibles he brings. Maybe he is a million too high and a year or two too long.

Bottom line is I don't see a lot that could have been done to avoid the current situation.
 

JacketsDavid

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Most of those contracts could be easily moved.

Except no one of the contracts we wanted to be moved were moved at the deadline.
So the guys we wanted to keep - we kept. And the guys we wanted to lose - we kept.

Our contracts reflect a team that is winning and locked up all the key pieces to make another run. As in the window is open let's keep going.
But our situation is we locked up a bunch of random guys in hoping to win - and haven't yet. In our situation we have no idea if there is even a window to crack open, we're just banging our head against the wall. :)
 

major major

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Except no one of the contracts we wanted to be moved were moved at the deadline.
So the guys we wanted to keep - we kept. And the guys we wanted to lose - we kept.

Our contracts reflect a team that is winning and locked up all the key pieces to make another run. As in the window is open let's keep going.
But our situation is we locked up a bunch of random guys in hoping to win - and haven't yet. In our situation we have no idea if there is even a window to crack open, we're just banging our head against the wall. :)

Yes, and I'm saying the downside here is that you might eventually have to trade away one of the players you wanted to keep. That's it. Given that many here refer to them, in their most kind terms, as middling players, I don't see what all the fuss is about.
 

EspenK

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Except no one of the contracts we wanted to be moved were moved at the deadline.
So the guys we wanted to keep - we kept. And the guys we wanted to lose - we kept.

Our contracts reflect a team that is winning and locked up all the key pieces to make another run. As in the window is open let's keep going.
But our situation is we locked up a bunch of random guys in hoping to win - and haven't yet. In our situation we have no idea if there is even a window to crack open, we're just banging our head against the wall. :)

Guys that don't move at the deadline can be moved at the draft and through the rest of the off season. Also Hartnell, Tyutin & Johnson will become more valuable as rentals as their contracts burn years. All is not lost.
 

EspenK

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As we wring our hands in despair, let me ask this- how many really think this is not a lower tier playoff team? There are only a few truly elite teams and I think we stack up okay against the rest of the current playoff contenders.

Things break right next year and we get a good start and stay relatively healthy this is a playoff team. Not a real contender but once you get in anything can happen.
 

major major

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As we wring our hands in despair, let me ask this- how many really think this is not a lower tier playoff team? There are only a few truly elite teams and I think we stack up okay against the rest of the current playoff contenders.

Things break right next year and we get a good start and stay relatively healthy this is a playoff team. Not a real contender but once you get in anything can happen.

Given last year's start, we'll have to count the chickens when they hatch. But the young core is moving into their primes, the scoring forwards are producing at an above average rate, the D should be the best we've ever seen, and we have two goalies capable of dominating.
 

major major

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This reminds me of when the same posters go on at length about the country club, and then complain that Jarmo/JD ruined Joey by not treating him with kid gloves.

If you trash our scoring forwards as middling grinders, then you shouldn't be so upset if the worst case scenario of the forward contract glut is that one of them has to be traded.

These boards have become just vehicles for random expressions of disapproval for Jarmo, not spaces for actual analysis.
 

Tulipunaruusu*

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Apr 27, 2014
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The elephant in the room is the lack of flexibility this very mediocre team has. It has $66m committed to next season and $59 million to the 2017-18 season. 2018-19 already has $39m allotted. Other teams which have the money committed to 2018-19 in the Jackets range have players like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kane, Crosby, Malkin, Perry, Kopitar, Toews and bonafide elite players signed. Not a bunch of midling top 6 forwards and injured goalies locked up.

I don't know if the greatest wisdom in a league of 29 other teams is to emulate exactly whatever the current dominant teams are doing. Therefore having your own distinct 'build' might prove out to have value far greater than numbers drawn out of whatever statistics.
 

JacketsDavid

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Jan 11, 2013
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As we wring our hands in despair, let me ask this- how many really think this is not a lower tier playoff team? There are only a few truly elite teams and I think we stack up okay against the rest of the current playoff contenders.

Things break right next year and we get a good start and stay relatively healthy this is a playoff team. Not a real contender but once you get in anything can happen.

I don't think it's a playoff team right now.
When games matter these guys haven't shown the ability to win.
While we have depth at C we are clearly missing a top line C which would allow everyone to slide into their correct space (Dubi #2, Wenny #3, Wild Bill #4).
The D will have 2 very young guys anchoring it and they have looked good, but you have to hope they progress. Odds of that happening are good, but you never know with kids.
Bob is a big question mark - he likes to play every game and how do you keep him and Korps happy? The injuries and his (Bob's) inconsistency (with his salary) raise a lot of flags.

Put it this way - who do you think we are better than that is ahead of us in the standings in the East?
Then explain why we are behind them currently?
Our coaching is fine (finally), our (team) offense is below average, our defense is average (and can get better) and our goaltending is average (if Bob is on he can be great, if Bob is bad we aren't winning).
Our hope to winning is to have a great defense (unless we win lottery and can add a legit #1C) and goal tending. We're getting there but need some guys to mature (Jones, Murray on blue line) and need Bob to prove he can be an effective 1A.
 

Igright

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Apr 18, 2015
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I don't think it's a playoff team right now.
When games matter these guys haven't shown the ability to win.
While we have depth at C we are clearly missing a top line C which would allow everyone to slide into their correct space (Dubi #2, Wenny #3, Wild Bill #4).
The D will have 2 very young guys anchoring it and they have looked good, but you have to hope they progress. Odds of that happening are good, but you never know with kids.
Bob is a big question mark - he likes to play every game and how do you keep him and Korps happy? The injuries and his (Bob's) inconsistency (with his salary) raise a lot of flags.

Put it this way - who do you think we are better than that is ahead of us in the standings in the East?
Then explain why we are behind them currently?
Our coaching is fine (finally), our (team) offense is below average, our defense is average (and can get better) and our goaltending is average (if Bob is on he can be great, if Bob is bad we aren't winning).
Our hope to winning is to have a great defense (unless we win lottery and can add a legit #1C) and goal tending. We're getting there but need some guys to mature (Jones, Murray on blue line) and need Bob to prove he can be an effective 1A.
These guys - Jones, Murray (and also Saad, Jenner) - will mature and become better, grow as leaders. That's the hope.
 

Cyclones Rock

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While your facts are probably correct the question is which deals shouldn't have been made at the time they were made? Collectively I agree that our cap is not good but I'm not sure there are deals which could have been avoided.

The UFA market is drying up as more and more teams lock up their good players earlier and earlier.

The cap hasn't increased like anticipated.

Bob's health could not have been foreseen.

Taking on Clarkson's deal was a complete disaster.

Hartnell is still earning his money.

Tyutin slowed down a bit earlier than hoped.

Foligno - I was against that one before he had a career year. Now that he is back to his normal production I worry it is too long and for too much. Others will disagree because of all the intangibles he brings. Maybe he is a million too high and a year or two too long.

Bottom line is I don't see a lot that could have been done to avoid the current situation.

Espenk, you're not a GM. Neither am I. Individually, a case can be made for every deal which has been signed. Except for the Horton/Clarkson disaster, obviously.

Leaving a team with no flexibility when it's not a superstar-laden franchise is, quite simply, incompetent. A GM has to pick and choose among non upper echelon players. It's either Dubinsky or Foligno. Not both when you already have a Hartnell and Clarkson's contract. One had a likely career year, the other is nothing special.

Is Saad worth his deal? It's a given on this board that he is. I'm not so sure. He certainly wasn't a "no brainer" to go long term-not when he was an RFA with at least 4 years to go until free agency.

Bob should have been signed longer term for less money per year. He'd be easier to move. This front office has myopia regarding bridge deals. I'm not buying that he wouldn't have gone long term on his bridge for a tad less than $6m per.

Tyutin's contract is not the FOs fault. It's not out of the question to say that his decline was predictable-insiders see him every day in practice and have access to his physical test results-and he might have had some market value last season, perhaps with some salary retention.

Calvert, Campbell and Boll are $5.6 million per year between them. Not much value there. I'll give the FO a pass on Boll as I suspect ownership may have driven that deal.

The sum total of the signed deals given the caliber of players and the lack of discretion-signing EVERYONE save a departed #1C-on a team which was a borderline playoff team isn't sound management. There's not another team in the league which is so hemmed in with relatively mediocre talent and minimal cap room.

Foligno, Dubinsky, Hartnell, Bob, Tyutin, and Clarkson are not easily tradable pieces without retention. Having 6 big contracts which are hard to move is not good management.
 

major major

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Foligno, Dubinsky, Hartnell, Bob, Tyutin, and Clarkson are not easily tradable pieces without retention. Having 6 big contracts which are hard to move is not good management.

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I bet Foligno and Dubinsky could be unloaded at will. Hartnell I can't imagine needing more than minor retention, if any. He was just almost moved.

To get out of this "inflexibility crisis" you're creating, all we have to do is trade one of the contracts. And given that you think they're middling at best, why do you care if we dump them? It’s not a real crisis.
 

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