The Identity (Politics) of Leaf Fans

[conFABulator]

I am pretty sure I will have no positive impact here and was going to post this in another thread that triggered this thought for me. I decided that would have hijacked the other thread, so I am starting this fresh. I really don't want this to be about Dubas, Treliving and their respective moves. There are plenty of threads for that, I am more interested in discussing the fans that are polarized and seemingly obsessed by the topic. I am hopeful this can be done in a productive way.

We really have to let the Dubas stuff go. For the record, I liked Dubas, but was happy he was let go. I didn't like Tre as the next guy, and now I am starting to come around.

Clearly a case can be made that Dubas built a strong and solid hockey team. Yes, both of those elements are defensible. He BUILT the team and it was/is SOLID and STRONG. A case can also be made that his teams fell short of their potential.

Debating this stuff and what could have been is fine with me. I like the discussion, it's what fans do. We are almost two years out now and the debate continues to be as much about the person as the product he produced.

It all feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me. The identity politics of some (many) on here cause some people to feel they have to disagree with and hate on everything Dubas did, and others defend everything he did and make excuses. Neither end of the spectrum is true, it never is. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't terrible. We were one of the best teams in the NHL under him, we have the longest streak of playoff appearances, and we haven't had the playoff success we feel we should have by now.

Does anyone want to weigh on this? Do the two ends of the spectrum make this place spicy or exhausting for you? Should we try to find more common ground and take a more balanced view or are the extremes just a fact of life in every fandom? Perhaps exacerbated in our massive and passionate one?

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[Woodman19]

I'm a leaf fan, everything else is just white noise.

 

[Goose]

I don’t think about Dubas hardly ever, when I do it’s because of something that gets brought up with the Penguins.

I’m not sure this is the issue you think it is.

 

[Stephen]

The best way to enjoy the new direction of the Leafs is to put the Dubas era behind and not worry about contentious recapping and throwing extra fuel to the fire with US political analogies.

 

[colchar]

We really have to let the Dubas stuff go.

Considering his screwups and how they continue to affect the team no, we don't.

Clearly a case can be made that Dubas built a strong and solid hockey team.

The team's record proves otherwise. Regular season is meaningless, playoffs are all that matter. When it comes to playoffs, Kyle Dubious built a perennial failure.

Do the two ends of the spectrum make this place spicy or exhausting for you?

If you don't like the discussion, don't read the threads in which it takes place.

 

[weems]

Technology and social media has made people way more tribal.
Echo chambers have become the norm where you only want to hear "Your side" and the other side is stupid and know's nothing.
The answer is almost always in the middle and we all need to get back to being able to communicate and debate with people who we disagree with without instantly resorting to calling names.

Dubas had his strengths and weaknesses just like any other GM.

 

[conFABulator]

Considering his screwups and how they continue to affect the team no, we don't.





The team's record proves otherwise. Regular season is meaningless, playoffs are all that matter. When it comes to playoffs, Kyle Dubious built a perennial failure.




If you don't like the discussion, don't read the threads in which it takes place.

You almost seems like a plant for the point I was asking about, and not in a good way.

(a) Our team is a very good team and has made changes and there is reason for optimism again this year and maybe we should be discussing that without always tying it back to Dubas

(b) Yeah, playoffs matter. Most teams don't win the cup or even rounds in the playoffs over a five year period. I acknowledge we should have done better, I don't agree with the adjectives that suggest it is a complete failure

(c) That's my point. When it invades every thread you can't really avoid them, now can you?

In your opinion, what were Dubas three best moves?

 

[conFABulator]

I don’t think about Dubas hardly ever, when I do it’s because of something that gets brought up with the Penguins.

I’m not sure this is the issue you think it is.

Fair point, I fully agree that most fans are fans of the team and don't get caught up in this stuff.

Maybe you are right and it is less of an issue than I feel it is. It always surprises and disappoints me when an otherwise interesting and productive thread and discussion gets hijacked by the Dubas/anti-Dubas crowds.

It happens a surprising amount, though I really don't pay attention to the User Names maybe it is a vocal minority doing the hijacking damage.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Technology and social media has made people way more tribal.
Echo chambers have become the norm where you only want to hear "Your side" and the other side is stupid and know's nothing.
The answer is almost always in the middle and we all need to get back to being able to communicate and debate with people who we disagree with without instantly resorting to calling names.

Dubas had his strengths and weaknesses just like any other GM.

Well said. Agreed.

(b) Yeah, playoffs matter. Most teams don't win the cup or even rounds in the playoffs over a five year period. I acknowledge we should have done better, I don't agree with the adjectives that suggest it is a complete failure

Complete failure is a bit much, failure though is completely fair IMO. When we played WSH tough in the 1st round, I was quite confident that we would be blessed with a LOT of playoff success in the coming years and I'm sure that 99% of fans felt the same way. Instead ...

 

[Peasy]

You almost seems like a plant for the point I was asking about, and not in a good way.

(a) Our team is a very good team and has made changes and there is reason for optimism again this year and maybe we should be discussing that without always tying it back to Dubas

(b) Yeah, playoffs matter. Most teams don't win the cup or even rounds in the playoffs over a five year period. I acknowledge we should have done better, I don't agree with the adjectives that suggest it is a complete failure

(c) That's my point. When it invades every thread you can't really avoid them, now can you?

In your opinion, what were Dubas three best moves?

Muzzin trade, McCann trade (lol at what he did after that), Sandin trade.

The worst is when people cant acknowledge that even if you really like someone and their moves/philosophy, there are still moves that they would have made that are objectively bad. No ones perfect. But theres certain people here that will defend every move at all costs and try to spin them all into great moves. If you align 100% with every move someone has made then basically worshiping the person.

 

[crump]

I remember when Shanny was hired and he was talking about being a good competitive team every year as a goal. To be able to make the playoffs on a consistent basis and be in the discussion as a contender. At the time the Wings of the millennium and Colorado were perfect examples of this. I thought hell yes I want that.

He achieved that, but somebody forgot to tell the players you need to win playoff rounds once you were there.

It’s a nightmare.

Hopefully the new coach will take them there.

 

[Nineteen67]

I want them to play hard, tough hockey. If they play hard and tough enough, have enough talent and skill, they’ll win playoff rounds. It looks like Tre is righting the ship, but the stars have to lead. If Matthews, Marner, and Nylander don’t change their style, it’ll be very hard to win.

 

[kevsh]

He BUILT the team and it was/is SOLID and STRONG

See, there's the problem right there. You are arguing we should stop arguing about Dubas then start to build your case for defending and blaming him.

For the record, he did not bring in/draft Reilly, Matthews, Marner, Nylander - pretty much the core of this team and attributable to most of its success - he inherited them. The one major addition that's still here is Tavares and his contract has been the primary reason the core hasn't been surrounded with enough talent.

In any case, I have no issue with the pro/anti-Dubas discussion/argument. That's what a message board is for. And as long as his fingerprints are on this team (see Tavares above) I think he's fair game, whichever side you're on.

Lastly, as everyone here is aware there is a lot of anxiety, disappointment and anger among Leafs fans for this team's lack of success. And as expected that leads to a scapegoat (or two) being singled out to blame. If/when this team actually does something in the post-season worth cheering for I suspect much of the anti-Dubas sentiment will start to fade. As it will with Marner, if he's still here and any other subject of the fans' ire. Or let time to its thing and at some point we'll all move on.

 

[conFABulator]

Muzzin trade, McCann trade (lol at what he did after that), Sandin trade.

The worst is when people cant acknowledge that even if you really like someone and their moves/philosophy, there are still moves that they would have made that are objectively bad. No ones perfect. But theres certain people here that will defend every move at all costs and try to spin them all into great moves. If you align 100% with every move someone has made then basically worshiping the person.

That's true, so is the 100% opposite. If you oppose 100% with every move someone has made then you are just hating on the person.

 

[conFABulator]

See, there's the problem right there. You are arguing we should stop arguing about Dubas then start to build your case for defending and blaming him.

....or maybe the problem is that people will read and quote the first part of the post and then remove the remaining context. The next sentence literally said he we didn't do well enough or meet expectations. I didn't build a case for defending or blaming him, I literally actually said that there are cases for and against.

The rest of your post really just answers the question. Yes, some people don't want to let go of their dislike for Dubas and will bring it up in every thread, even in a thread like this one where I specifically said I would prefer we not re-litigate the Dubas era and that we discuss why some people want to do this. so often.

Yes, it is a discussion board and a free country. Say what you want. Talking about letting Hyman go or signing Mrazek is relevant hockey discussion, tying that back to a "boy wonder" comment can be exhausting for some readers to constantly read; even those that are not supporters of Dubas. It feels personal and not objectively balanced.

 

[DarkKnight]

Okay, but what about the Marleau signing?

 

[conFABulator]

I remember when Shanny was hired and he was talking about being a good competitive team every year as a goal. To be able to make the playoffs on a consistent basis and be in the discussion as a contender. At the time the Wings of the millennium and Colorado were perfect examples of this. I thought hell yes I want that.

He achieved that, but somebody forgot to tell the players you need to win playoff rounds once you were there.

It’s a nightmare.

Hopefully the new coach will take them there.

I don't know your age or vintage, but I agree with every word of this except for it being a "nightmare". Nightmares are literally almost every other part of the the past five decades. Even our two good runs felt like they were going to be short-lived due to age and roster.

By your summary, Shanny has met his goal. All a team can ask is to be a contender every year and hope health, matchups and pucks bounce your way

You also have to not chalk it all up to bad luck if it doesn't go your way. I like that in the last 18 months we have a new GM, new coaching staff, and new captain.

 

[ER89]

Just let people be and Allow them to be a fan however they want. Stop policing what people should and shouldn't do

 

[crump]

I don't know your age or vintage, but I agree with every word of this except for it being a "nightmare". Nightmares are literally almost every other part of the the past five decades. Even our two good runs felt like they were going to be short-lived due to age and roster.

By your summary, Shanny has met his goal. All a team can ask is to be a contender every year and hope health, matchups and pucks bounce your way

You also have to not chalk it all up to bad luck if it doesn't go your way. I like that in the last 18 months we have a new GM, new coaching staff, and new captain.

Here’s the thing. I remember playing on the floor in front of the TV when Leafs won the cup. Didn’t know much but I knew it was a big deal by the reactions of the adults in the room.

I lived through the Ballard era, 2 decades of hopelessness, I reveled in the Stavros/Fletcher era , after 2 decades it seemed like a dam had burst.

Now to finally have another overall #1 franchise pick, the potential is intoxicating and yet a nightmare that again, I am being denied the elation those adults in the room got to experience so many years ago.

End of sob story. Now go out and win a cup boys.

 

[Mugzy97]

When a team doesn’t succeed you have fans pointing the finger at something or someone. When the team has a vast following like the Leafs, there will be a finger pointed in every direction.

I personally think we should have kept (and tried to keep) Dubas and got rid of Keefe at the time.

 

[rumman]

I am pretty sure I will have no positive impact here and was going to post this in another thread that triggered this thought for me. I decided that would have hijacked the other thread, so I am starting this fresh. I really don't want this to be about Dubas, Treliving and their respective moves. There are plenty of threads for that, I am more interested in discussing the fans that are polarized and seemingly obsessed by the topic. I am hopeful this can be done in a productive way.

We really have to let the Dubas stuff go. For the record, I liked Dubas, but was happy he was let go. I didn't like Tre as the next guy, and now I am starting to come around.

Clearly a case can be made that Dubas built a strong and solid hockey team. Yes, both of those elements are defensible. He BUILT the team and it was/is SOLID and STRONG. A case can also be made that his teams fell short of their potential.

Debating this stuff and what could have been is fine with me. I like the discussion, it's what fans do. We are almost two years out now and the debate continues to be as much about the person as the product he produced.

It all feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me. The identity politics of some (many) on here cause some people to feel they have to disagree with and hate on everything Dubas did, and others defend everything he did and make excuses. Neither end of the spectrum is true, it never is. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't terrible. We were one of the best teams in the NHL under him, we have the longest streak of playoff appearances, and we haven't had the playoff success we feel we should have by now.

Does anyone want to weigh on this? Do the two ends of the spectrum make this place spicy or exhausting for you? Should we try to find more common ground and take a more balanced view or are the extremes just a fact of life in every fandom? Perhaps exacerbated in our massive and passionate one?

Six paragraphs of letting us know your a closet Dubas fanboy without saying your a Dubas fanboy. People love him, people hate him, personally I’m thankful we’re all entitled to our opinions, and find nothing polarizing about having differing opinions. You do you and let others do likewise, this place would suck if it was a echo chamber of like minded opinions imo………

Considering his screwups and how they continue to affect the team no, we don't.





The team's record proves otherwise. Regular season is meaningless, playoffs are all that matter. When it comes to playoffs, Kyle Dubious built a perennial failure.




If you don't like the discussion, don't read the threads in which it takes place.

Winner winner chicken dinner……..

 

[rumman]

I remember when Shanny was hired and he was talking about being a good competitive team every year as a goal. To be able to make the playoffs on a consistent basis and be in the discussion as a contender. At the time the Wings of the millennium and Colorado were perfect examples of this. I thought hell yes I want that.

He achieved that, but somebody forgot to tell the players you need to win playoff rounds once you were there.

It’s a nightmare.

Hopefully the new coach will take them there.

I’d argue that it was the sole result of the GM to put together a team of players that weren’t playoff performers regardless of cap constraints, he built the team, he’s the architect and responsible for any success/failure………

Okay, but what about the Marleau signing?

What about giving away a first for 82 games of Marleau………

 

[notdoneyet]

My take
Posters are talking good and bad about Dubas my opinion he failed we didn’t win a cup and I don’t care what he is doing now. He is gone no looking back only ahead

Same goes for posters who worry about a player we trade playing good for another team. What he does with another team does not matter to me good or bad. He is not a leaf anymore and if he finds success somewhere else then good for him.

I only care about the team we have now and hope they can be successful. Looking back doesn’t do any good because no matter how much you piss and Moan you can’t change the past.

Look ahead not behind

Go leafs

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

We don't have to let it go. Anyone and everyone that defended and continues to defend his tenure as GM deserves to be ridiculed forever and is a big reason why this team will continue to fail going forward.

Some of You Folks acted and continue to act like he was God's gift to hockey. When he bastardized the game. That is unforgivable.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Okay, but what about the Marleau signing?

Mahovlich trade.