The Identity (Politics) of Leaf Fans (Not actual politics)

[AvroArrow]

Dubas is/was completely soft, possibly the softest GM in the history of the sport. He was extremely on the 1 side of the spectrum and perfectly embodied that extreme left softness in the sport of hockey. You'll notice all of his supporters are in love with him because of that. It's not because of what he did as a GM, which in my opinion was a complete failure, but more so because he embodied that extreme and represented it in the NHL. They love the symbol that he is/was.

Trying my best to explain it without getting too political but it was this idea that the individual and the individuals feelings mattered more than results and being held accountable. Can't be mean or criticize guys or demand more from them because it's offensive and it is our privilege to watch them, not their privilege to put on the blue and white.

The Dubas apologists are nauseating in my opinion. A balanced centrist approach is the best, of course no GM or team or whatever will truly be in that perfect center, but as close to it as possible while staying true to your philosophy in how a team should be built, and how they should play to be successful. The Dubas teams and Dubas fan club in my opinion are just extreeeeeeme on 1 end, so even a balanced/centrist approach to them seems extreme right.

 

[rumman]

Wow, what a crushing insult. How will I ever recover?




Not when it matters.




Results matter, not hope.




When Kyle Dubious' moves still impact the team, he is germane to the discussion. In fact, he is central to it.




What an incredible analysis. You are clearly a savant.




You don't agree that only winning a single playoff round equals failure? What is wrong with you?





Nobody forces you to read the boards.





1) Engineering his own exit.
2) Engineering his own exit.
3) Engineering his own exit.

Great post……..

What legacy? Seriously? What legacy.

Let's just say we win a cup this year. We won't, but let's say we did.

These are the players that Kyle Dubas contributed to our cup win:

Tavares
Robertson
Knies
Holmberg
Hildeby
Kampf
McMann
McCabe

I am fairly certain that we can discount Holmberg and Hildeby of having anything to do with a cup win. I don't think either will be on the "playoff roster".

Kyle definitely deserves credit for Matthew Knies, Bobby McMann and Jake McCabe. These guys are absolutely capable of playing their role on a cup winning team.

Then we get down to Robertson and Kampf. Personally I don't think Robertson will be an integral part of any cup win. I'm not 100% sure he gets through this season as a Leaf. He might, he might not. And Kampf as a 4th line centre, sure, Kyle deserves credit for that.

But in 5 years as the GM, absolute best case scenario Kyle has added:

First line winger
2nd pairing dman
3 bottom 6 wingers
4th line centre
Whatever people think Tavares is.

Do you know how many assets (in the form of draft picks and prospects) that cost us?

What credit do you need Kyle to get for you to be happy? For resigning Matthews, Marner and Nylander? Is that not a task any adult could have accomplished (especially at the salary Matthews and Marner got?)

I mean this in it's absolute most sincerity, I believe at least 50% of posters on this board could have contributed more to a cup winning lineup as GM of this team, given they were allowed to spend the same assets (picks and prospects) as Kyle was.

I honestly don't know what I am supposed to be crediting Kyle for? For every move that was good (trading for McCann) he over thought everything and completely screwed something up (allowing McCann to be taken by the Kraken).

He took over a 105 point team, who had budding superstars that could be molded into anything we chose. We had cap space on the horizon, draft picks galore, prospects coming along the way, and I'm supposed to thank Kyle for us being a good team?

We already were a good team. His challenge was to make us great. He failed.

Good post…….

 

[conFABulator]

To sum it up outside of finding a hot goalie who stands on his head Kyle will never win anything. We are very lucky Kyle got greedy or he would still be here.

We will never know exactly what happened in the final days of Dubas, but it certainly appears that Shanny was ready to extend him and then didn't.

Whatever it was seems to have "saved" is from more years of Dubas. I feel we are more on the right path now than we would have been if KD was still at the helm.

I believe he would have fired Keefe, that had to happen no matter who the GM was. I don't know that Berube would have been his choice and I like him as coach. I also don't know that we would have the grit, snarl and sandpaper we have ok the D (Tanev, Benoit, Hakanpaa and even OEL) and the fourth line (Lorentz, Reaves, and Dewar) and I have no reason to believe we would have the depth and strength in G that we have right now. He may have even already extended Marner.

Who knows? I do like the Treliving fingerprints on this team now.

 

[conFABulator]

Great post……..


Good post…….

I see you are back in this thread...

You must not have seen my last response to you, the one where I asked why you called me a "Dubas Fanboy"...it feels to me like you believe unless someone hates on Dubas they must be a fanboy.

That's kind of the thesis behind this thread so I am interested in unpacking your comment a bit. What makes someone a "fanboy" of Dubas to you?

My original post shared my opinion that we underdelivered and disappointed under Dubas; I said it was good that he was gone IMO. I have been consistent about this since Dubas was let walk. This is why I don't understand your comment. Do you need people to hate Dubas more?

 

[conFABulator]

Dubas is/was completely soft, possibly the softest GM in the history of the sport. He was extremely on the 1 side of the spectrum and perfectly embodied that extreme left softness in the sport of hockey. You'll notice all of his supporters are in love with him because of that. It's not because of what he did as a GM, which in my opinion was a complete failure, but more so because he embodied that extreme and represented it in the NHL. They love the symbol that he is/was.

Trying my best to explain it without getting too political but it was this idea that the individual and the individuals feelings mattered more than results and being held accountable. Can't be mean or criticize guys or demand more from them because it's offensive and it is our privilege to watch them, not their privilege to put on the blue and white.

The Dubas apologists are nauseating in my opinion. A balanced centrist approach is the best, of course no GM or team or whatever will truly be in that perfect center, but as close to it as possible while staying true to your philosophy in how a team should be built, and how they should play to be successful. The Dubas teams and Dubas fan club in my opinion are just extreeeeeeme on 1 end, so even a balanced/centrist approach to them seems extreme right.

That's interesting and I don't think anyone has brought it up in thread before you. This "softness" you describe of Dubas seems to fit with what we saw and seemed to permeate the organization. We now hear about accountability as something Berube brings. IMO that is a huge add to the culture and without it we could never win.

Your final comment also tracks with me. People at either end of this polarized spectrum see those as the centre as being too far in the other direction. I believe I am more centrist (to use your term) and see good and bad in KD's tenure and in the end it didn't work, it disappointed and underdelivered and it was good that we parted ways...yet when I say that I get called a "Dubas fanboy" seemingly because I acknowledged not EVERYTHING he did was bad or wrong.

 

[rumman]

Dubas is/was completely soft, possibly the softest GM in the history of the sport. He was extremely on the 1 side of the spectrum and perfectly embodied that extreme left softness in the sport of hockey. You'll notice all of his supporters are in love with him because of that. It's not because of what he did as a GM, which in my opinion was a complete failure, but more so because he embodied that extreme and represented it in the NHL. They love the symbol that he is/was.

Trying my best to explain it without getting too political but it was this idea that the individual and the individuals feelings mattered more than results and being held accountable. Can't be mean or criticize guys or demand more from them because it's offensive and it is our privilege to watch them, not their privilege to put on the blue and white.

The Dubas apologists are nauseating in my opinion. A balanced centrist approach is the best, of course no GM or team or whatever will truly be in that perfect center, but as close to it as possible while staying true to your philosophy in how a team should be built, and how they should play to be successful. The Dubas teams and Dubas fan club in my opinion are just extreeeeeeme on 1 end, so even a balanced/centrist approach to them seems extreme right.

Soft like butter………

 

[slozo]

What was his point in your opinion?

Why don't you ask him yourself if you really want to know . . . strange question to ask me.
And if you truly didn't think he had a point then why not just move on?

 

[keonsbitterness]

Bolstered the team with enough talent to win. Instead he signed over the hill veterans like Thornton and marleau to

For the record, Lou signed Marleau.

 

[notdoneyet]

I think this is a pretty good summary. I think it may have turned out differently if the cap didn't go flat. I know everyone was hit by Covid and the flat cap. The timing was bad for a team that invested in three young players with the belief the cap would rise and these might be good deals when teams have ten or fifteen million dollars more the spend.

...maybe we keep Hyman or get that goalie or #1 D? We didn't and he never adjusted, though it was impossible to predict how long Covid would be a factor.

That's not excuse making, I belie it is fact. I don't know how people can completely omit the impact of Covid and salaries on this team at that time.

Oh I believe you are 100 per cent right with the Covid factor. No one and I mean no one saw that coming
BUT
I believe Dubas overpaid in their next contract. He should have been smart enough to realize that once he gave them that big money it was going to be even more on their next one.

He gave them everything and got nothing in return. He gave them a great salary, NMC, and gave them millions and millions as bonuses.
He did all that and couldn’t get an 8 year commitment from them.

He created the monsters and with no success in the playoffs IMHO he failed miserably as our GM.

 

[Gabriel426]

I and many others said this at least 4 or 5 years ago. Kyle did so much damage so early in his tenure, he could never recover in time. His moves in the first 12-18 months as GM sealed our fate.

Additionally (and unfortunately) it has also sealed our fate for the next 3 or 4 years. We will not win a Cup, because we don't truly have the horses to.

I don't think enough people realize how Kyle absolutely screwed up an unbelievable position that this franchise was in.

People always like to use the word hindsight. They also like to call certain fans trolls, or accuse them of wishing the team to lose. Well those fans have actually understood the whole step of the way how and why the team they love just pissed away a golden opportunity.

All those "trolls" could clearly see, step by step, that wrong decision after wrong decision was happening without the need of hindsight.

It is easy to break down any GMs in any sports tenure after all said and done.

To me GMs need to take risks and those great ones that end up winning just shows their gambles paid off.
Look at Masai and the Raptors. The story is that he took a big swing and won. Nobody can deny that, but a lot of luck was also involved. That Kawhi shot against the Philly in the last second. If that shot didn’t go in, it will be another second round exit and questions will be ask about what to do with the Raptors…
Not defending Dubas by any means, as he gambled and lost like a lot of GMs in any sports. Just that instead of learning his lessons, he believed in his vision way too much and further cause damages to the Leafs.

 

[conFABulator]

Oh I believe you are 100 per cent right with the Covid factor. No one and I mean no one saw that coming
BUT
I believe Dubas overpaid in their next contract. He should have been smart enough to realize that once he gave them that big money it was going to be even more on their next one.

He gave them everything and got nothing in return. He gave them a great salary, NMC, and gave them millions and millions as bonuses.
He did all that and couldn’t get an 8 year commitment from them.

He created the monsters and with no success in the playoffs IMHO he failed miserably as our GM.

I think one of us has our timing off.

Marner and Matthews signed in 2019 and Marner hasn't signed another, Matthews next contract was signed by Tre.

Nylander and Tavares signed in 2018 and it's the same...no next deal for JT and Willy's next one was signed by Treliving.

The cap rose 15% in the five years before Tavares signed and 5% in the five years after. If Covid never hit and the cap kept rising at the same rate as it was proven prior to then it would have grown by $12M instead of $4M. The Leafs would have had at least $8M more to spend, so would other teams and salaries would have gone higher not making our guys seem so "overpaid"...either way he didn't really course correct.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

We will never know exactly what happened in the final days of Dubas, but it certainly appears that Shanny was ready to extend him and then didn't.

Whatever it was seems to have "saved" is from more years of Dubas. I feel we are more on the right path now than we would have been if KD was still at the helm.

I believe he would have fired Keefe, that had to happen no matter who the GM was. I don't know that Berube would have been his choice and I like him as coach. I also don't know that we would have the grit, snarl and sandpaper we have ok the D (Tanev, Benoit, Hakanpaa and even OEL) and the fourth line (Lorentz, Reaves, and Dewar) and I have no reason to believe we would have the depth and strength in G that we have right now. He may have even already extended Marner.

Who knows? I do like the Treliving fingerprints on this team now.

Well, don't dash my dreams here.

Last thing that I heard happened between Dubas and Shanny, apparently Dubas went into Shanny's office and asked for more money and a private jet and Shanny actually pointed to the door and told him to f off.

I don't know if this is true, but I love imagining it playing out like that.

 

[conFABulator]

Thanks everyone for the discussion. This question of division amongst the fanbase is something I notice and think about.

My takeaways from this discussion were.

(1) It definitely does exist and it appears to be almost always directly about Dubas and the Dubas era. He appears to have been more polarizing and not just another GM that people have opinions about.

(2) It seems to be small subset of the Leafs HFBoards population that really cares about this stuff and most of us prefer to be "fans of the team" in a more "unconditional" way, we want them to win, improve and win a cup obviously but don't let "who built this team, who failed, etc" enter our thinking and posting. I noticed the Dubas stuff mostly in the "Tre is doing a good job" thread and can understand how Dubas would come into that discussion for relevant reasons. I also saw it in the OEL thread today and it seemed like the reach and negativity of focus leading to division that I was referring to.

(3) Someone in this thread made a good point that I think sums this up rather nicely. Most fans are in the centre (support the team, assess current and past moves on merit, etc) but people toward either end of the pro-Dubas/anti -Dubas spectrum consider those in the "middle" to be opposed to their perspective. For example, I was called a "Dubas fanboy" in this thread and all that I can tell is that this is because I don't hate Dubas enough. I literally said his teams underdelivered and disappointed and that I agreed with the decision to part ways with him, yet when I acknowledged he had done some good things and had circumstances to deal with (flat cap, strength of our division, bad contracts inherited, death of a top prospect) I was painted (by a small fee) as pro Dubas.

It will be really nice when this subsides a bit so we can all enjoy the common ground of being Leafs fans that so badly want them to win. I hope those that have dug in on either polarized camp can find away to not be painted in a corner.

If we win the cup any time soon there will be lots of credit to go around and cheering against certain players contributing because it works for or against the Dubas narrative seems like an unfortunate way to be a fan of the team.

This is not to say we shouldn't be able to discuss the past GM and his moves, it would be nice if this was done based on merit, evidence and balance and less on battle lines drawn by some. It makes the experience more fun for fans IMO.

My summary on Dubas at this point hasn't changed. We are a good team and we are seeing we might get even better, Dubas had a lot to do with attracting, retaining and developing this roster and organization. I also don't think we would have Berube, Domi, Tanev, OEL, Benoit, Hakanpaa, Stolarz, and Lorentz had we not moved on to Tre and they are all contributors to the short term future direction and prospects of this team.

Thanks everyone for the input, there were a lot of thoughtful posts and responses and a few that confirmed for me that I wasn't imagining this divide does exist for some.