The Identity (Politics) of Leaf Fans (Not actual politics)

[BobClarkesfrontteeth]

Yeah, I'm not taking sides or have a real opinion, I'm not in either camp (Shanny/Dubas), nor do I hold strong feelings positive or negative about either.

I'm one of the few on here that don't have a huge issue with how top-heavy this team is, I see it as a risk/reward strategy that so far has been coming up 7s.

I'm a huge believer that luck has a lot to do with NHL success, and all you can do is build a roster that can theoretically compete and hope it works out, and if you succeed you get the credit, and if you fail (which you're going to literally 95% of the time) you're going to get shat on, no matter what you did really.

Agreed. Having 3 top 25 talents in the NHL should never be seen as a bad thing.

Coaching was about 70 to 80 % of the issue and then 20% was the Leafs have had the losing goalie on thier side for each playoff round. They have changed both issues so lets see what happens.

Which one do you think I was referring to?

No idea hence the question.

 

[Dave92]

I am pretty sure I will have no positive impact here and was going to post this in another thread that triggered this thought for me. I decided that would have hijacked the other thread, so I am starting this fresh. I really don't want this to be about Dubas, Treliving and their respective moves. There are plenty of threads for that, I am more interested in discussing the fans that are polarized and seemingly obsessed by the topic. I am hopeful this can be done in a productive way.

We really have to let the Dubas stuff go. For the record, I liked Dubas, but was happy he was let go. I didn't like Tre as the next guy, and now I am starting to come around.

Clearly a case can be made that Dubas built a strong and solid hockey team. Yes, both of those elements are defensible. He BUILT the team and it was/is SOLID and STRONG. A case can also be made that his teams fell short of their potential.

Debating this stuff and what could have been is fine with me. I like the discussion, it's what fans do. We are almost two years out now and the debate continues to be as much about the person as the product he produced.

It all feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me. The identity politics of some (many) on here cause some people to feel they have to disagree with and hate on everything Dubas did, and others defend everything he did and make excuses. Neither end of the spectrum is true, it never is. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't terrible. We were one of the best teams in the NHL under him, we have the longest streak of playoff appearances, and we haven't had the playoff success we feel we should have by now.

Does anyone want to weigh on this? Do the two ends of the spectrum make this place spicy or exhausting for you? Should we try to find more common ground and take a more balanced view or are the extremes just a fact of life in every fandom? Perhaps exacerbated in our massive and passionate one?

Well the Dubas era is now historical record. Playoffs were the focus the entirely of his tenure, He was convinced he had a championship caliber playoff team but what he actually had was one of the worst playoff teams in the history of professional sports.

I don't think there is any argument to be made that he build a quality team when it comes to playoff hockey.

 

[Gabriel426]

That's interesting, what are examples of doubling and tripling down on advanced stats? I know we didn't have a bunch of big dmen or even enough high end dmen and maybe we ran too long with Sandin and Liljegren?

Obviously Malgin for Marchment is one, but NO ONE saw Marchment coming at that level, also not sure I would want him on our roster at his $4.5M cap hit. Regardless, Malgin was nothing and I can't imagine advanced stats made a case for him.

Kerfoot may have been one? That cap and ice time could have been invested better.

It is not just big Dmen or physical forwards or hits in games…..but more to do with guys Dubas assembled and also the style Keefe’s played(pretty sure that’s what Dubas wants to play too).
Quite a few of them are not bad players for their roles on the team but it seems like they all play the same style.

 

[conFABulator]

Well the Dubas era is now historical record. Playoffs were the focus the entirely of his tenure, He was convinced he had a championship caliber playoff team but what he actually had was one of the worst playoff teams in the history of professional sports.

I don't think there is any argument to be made that he build a quality team when it comes to playoff hockey.

Yep. Did anything in my initial post suggest otherwise?

As I said, I am not interested in re-litigating the Dubas era so much as interested in why he causes such anger in some people. You are not wrong about his playoff record but this could be an example of what I am talking about. If you ask ChatGPT who the best teams in the NHL were in 2018 to 2023, the Leafs are top six. This is obviously not based on playoff performance but it didn't even get mentioned in your summary there.

Further to this, I had someone challenge my statement that he built a solid and strong team. He challenged the word built and said Dubas didn't build anything. Hmmm ..but he is responsible for not building a team that had playoff success.

I know you didn't make both comments so I am not holding your accountable for the specific inconsistency. In your opinion, does Dubas get credit for building a team that was a top team and made the playoffs all five years he was GM?

 

[slozo]

If asked what I think of Dubas’ tenure I’d say he was a train wreck, if someone said they thought he did a good job I’d say you don’t know shit about hockey. I’d do this to anyone in person or online, it makes no difference to me…………

...and then there's my opinion, which would be right in the middle of those two extremes.

I think your response is actually supporting the original poster's point, lol.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

I am pretty sure I will have no positive impact here and was going to post this in another thread that triggered this thought for me. I decided that would have hijacked the other thread, so I am starting this fresh. I really don't want this to be about Dubas, Treliving and their respective moves. There are plenty of threads for that, I am more interested in discussing the fans that are polarized and seemingly obsessed by the topic. I am hopeful this can be done in a productive way.

We really have to let the Dubas stuff go. For the record, I liked Dubas, but was happy he was let go. I didn't like Tre as the next guy, and now I am starting to come around.

Clearly a case can be made that Dubas built a strong and solid hockey team. Yes, both of those elements are defensible. He BUILT the team and it was/is SOLID and STRONG. A case can also be made that his teams fell short of their potential.

Debating this stuff and what could have been is fine with me. I like the discussion, it's what fans do. We are almost two years out now and the debate continues to be as much about the person as the product he produced.

It all feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me. The identity politics of some (many) on here cause some people to feel they have to disagree with and hate on everything Dubas did, and others defend everything he did and make excuses. Neither end of the spectrum is true, it never is. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't terrible. We were one of the best teams in the NHL under him, we have the longest streak of playoff appearances, and we haven't had the playoff success we feel we should have by now.

Does anyone want to weigh on this? Do the two ends of the spectrum make this place spicy or exhausting for you? Should we try to find more common ground and take a more balanced view or are the extremes just a fact of life in every fandom? Perhaps exacerbated in our massive and passionate one?

You are literally promoting the idea of considering the Leafs, a hockey team, as a battle between quote "feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me"


This tells me you are wound up in all that crap, and think it relates to a hockey team.

I don't think that's healthy discussion.

I think the Leafs are NDP, John Tory, Wong or whatever......maybe a little Stompin' Tom, or dare I say it even a little Rolling Stones saving us from SARS........


What? Sounds insane right?

 

[Dave92]

Yep. Did anything in my initial post suggest otherwise?

As I said, I am not interested in re-litigating the Dubas era so much as interested in why he causes such anger in some people. You are not wrong about his playoff record but this could be an example of what I am talking about. If you ask ChatGPT who the best teams in the NHL were in 2018 to 2023, the Leafs are top six. This is obviously not based on playoff performance but it didn't even get mentioned in your summary there.

Further to this, I had someone challenge my statement that he built a solid and strong team. He challenged the word built and said Dubas didn't build anything. Hmmm ..but he is responsible for not building a team that had playoff success.

I know you didn't make both comments so I am not holding your accountable for the specific inconsistency. In your opinion, does Dubas get credit for building a team that was a top team and made the playoffs all five years he was GM?

You sure about that?

What did Dubas do that was exceptional? I can't speak for everyone but i disliked the type of people that would identify as Dubas fans more than Dubas himself. I just think Dubas really didn't accomplish much of anything and diminished many assets that he was given.

 

[LeafEgo]

The truth is on the middle, as it almost always is.

This is a valuable principle remarkably not appreciated almost everywhere you look. But sometimes things are simply just crazy. Dubie is a talented dude but shockingly was more ill equipped to GM the Leafs than probably numerous posters. It was obvious to many that had to patiently wait the whole thing out in slow motion. The placement itself was as dubious as his scandal ridden exit.

It's necessary to bring him up here and there because his damage looms over the era, but no value otherwise, particularly 'moderation policing' an insane event.

 

[conFABulator]

You are literally promoting the idea of considering the Leafs, a hockey team, as a battle between quote "feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me"


This tells me you are wound up in all that crap, and think it relates to a hockey team.

I don't think that's healthy discussion.

I think the Leafs are NDP, John Tory, Wong or whatever......maybe a little Stompin' Tom, or dare I say it even a little Rolling Stones saving us from SARS........


What? Sounds insane right?

If that this how this reads to you, then up our are obviously entitled to that opinion.

What I am saying is that when I am reading and enjoying a good thread about a hockey topic and it gets hijacked back to someone overly attacking or defending Dubas it feels like when the same thing happens and someone blames something on Democrats or Republicans when I didn't think it was a political discussion at all.

I don't think I am "promoting" anything. I am saying that one reminds me of the other and if anything saying that I wish it didn't happen so much. That might actually be the opposite of "promoting", so you may have misused the word "literally" in your post there.

I am not saying that the Leafs are either Democrats or Republicans in this example, nor am I actually saying anything about the political affiliation of any of the fans. I am saying that some ID as pro-Dubas and other anti-Dubas and lose all objectivity in discussing the five years before Tre. A healthy approach would be to assess the era and his moves on their merit and lack thereof. The actual term for this is "identity politics" and I used the current US political climate as an analogy for how this plays out. I really don't see how calling out what this feels like is unhealthy.

Yes, to answer your question your analogy does sound insane. It is not at all what K am talking about though.

 

[conFABulator]

You sure about that?
View attachment 918960

What did Dubas do that was exceptional? I can't speak for everyone but i disliked the type of people that would identify as Dubas fans more than Dubas himself. I just think Dubas really didn't accomplish much of anything and diminished many assets that he was given.

i don't think I ever said Dubas did anything "exceptional" so I really can't answer your question.

I actually said he built a "solid and strong" team. I chose solid and strong because they are not exceptional adjectives. When someone challenged me on those words I tapped ChatGPT to support my words (or refute them). I asked it who the best teams in the NHL were from 2018 to 2023. The Leafs were sixth on the list. That would make them exceptional or very good by many people's standards, however the lack of playoff success is a factor for all of us so I downgraded the adjectives to solid and strong.

I never said he or his performance or results were exceptional. Your comment about Dubas and his fandom is your opinion and I appreciate you sharing it. I probably agree with it and it is getting to heart of my initial question. People that supported Dubas so much seem to lack objectivity when discussing his tenure and legacy. It seems that some on here oppose Dubas so much that they also lack objectivity. Further, it seems that both of these groups are so consumed by their position that it bleeds into many current day, otherwise hockey related discussions.

I don't enjoy every thread or many threads being hijacked in this way. In fact, this is why I started its own thread on it. I saw this happening on another discussion and thought about asking about this feeling of "us vs them" there but didn't want to be guilty of the very thing I was raising as an issue.

I literally don't understand the divide on this issue being so deep. It feels a bit weird to me and I was asking about it. Some on here have understood the question and engaged in a discussion about it. Others have sort of confirmed my point that this is happening by using this as an opportunity to bash Dubas, or support him. What's also interesting is that lots have assumed I am defending Dubas just because I am not hating on him or bashing him, which also sort of confirms my point. My initial post even said that his teams under delivered and disappointed that I thought it was a good decision for the Leafs to move on from him. For some reason that was not enough hate and vitriol against the man and his legacy.

As for different ChatGPT answers, I believe I asked who the "best" teams were and not who the "top" teams are. I imagine the Leafs where 7 or 8 on your list too and that doesn't change much in the way of substance here. That would make them "solid" or "strong" and not "exceptional in any way". I used the former two and not the latter word.

 

[conFABulator]

This is a valuable principle remarkably not appreciated almost everywhere you look. But sometimes things are simply just crazy. Dubie is a talented dude but shockingly was more ill equipped to GM the Leafs than probably numerous posters. It was obvious to many that had to patiently wait the whole thing out in slow motion. The placement itself was as dubious as his scandal ridden exit.

It's necessary to bring him up here and there because his damage looms over the era, but no value otherwise, particularly 'moderation policing' an insane event.

I don't know what "scandal" you refer to at the exit. Maybe there is some context I am not aware of that fuels this divide? My understanding was it was as simple as negotiation gone wrong, Shanny deciding that based on this Dubas was not the man moving forward and he didn't extend him. This surprised Dubas and then he said some things about prioritizing his family and not making a move to a new team soon but did anyway. This can't be the scandal you refer to.

If you believe that the damage looks large over the era then I can see why it is relevant to bring up in certain discussions. It feels to me like it also comes up when it didn't have to. Where it gets bothersome is when it feels like some almost want the Leafs to fail so they can be right about their hatred of Dubas. I am not suggesting that is everyone, but it sure feels like a small minority feel that way.

 

[Peasy]

You are right about the "weird media stuff" but isn't it also true that some members of the media had the same level of bias against him?

I don't know if that is correct, it is an actual question.

Again, does it feel a bit like Rep/Dem in the US and the Athletic are CNN? Who knows.

Thanks for the thoughtful input.

It a tricky topic, because we should look to the past and ask "what if?". We should want to learn from mistakes for sure. It feels like some are too consumed by the man at the helm in the recent past and I feel they are not interested in saying some was good and some was bad and they sit at either end of that spectrum and in my opinion this hurts the quality of discussion and debate.

Is it true? Can you show me articles throughout the 5 years he was here where major media (sportsnet, espn, nhl, the athletic etc) trashed him constantly (in an unfair way)?

Meanwhile you would have thought the dude died with some of the articles that were written after he was fired. And then you have the main Leaf athletic writers constantly writing negative articles about anything Treliving did without a game even being played yet. Then it was just constant talk about how Dubas constructed much better teams, leafs are struggling etc etc. My god dont forget about trading Lafferty. People were having aneurysms for the first few months last season just due to this minor trade.

I think the majority of Leaf fans are over what Dubas has done (just like with Lou, or Burke etc) and just want to look forward. However, if someone brings up a negative of Dubas, you have very specific posters on this site that will come in their shining armour to defend his honour till their last breath. That just ends up annoying the f*** out of people when they constantly have to read this defending of a dude who isnt even part of the team anymore. Its showing that they care more about Dubas than the Leafs. This then makes other posters even more annoyed by Dubas because he somehow spawned these posters that just make their entire identity on this site about him.

 

[conFABulator]

Is it true? Can you show me articles throughout the 5 years he was here where major media (sportsnet, espn, nhl, the athletic etc) trashed him constantly (in an unfair way)?

Meanwhile you would have thought the dude died with some of the articles that were written after he was fired. And then you have the main Leaf athletic writers constantly writing negative articles about anything Treliving did without a game even being played yet. Then it was just constant talk about how Dubas constructed much better teams, leafs are struggling etc etc. My god dont forget about trading Lafferty. People were having aneurysms for the first few months last season just due to this minor trade.

I think the majority of Leaf fans are over what Dubas has done (just like with Lou, or Burke etc) and just want to look forward. However, if someone brings up a negative of Dubas, you have very specific posters on this site that will come in their shining armour to defend his honour till their last breath. That just ends up annoying the f*** out of people when they constantly have to read this defending of a dude who isnt even part of the team anymore. Its showing that they care more about Dubas than the Leafs. This then makes other posters even more annoyed by Dubas because he somehow spawned these posters that just make their entire identity on this site about him.

Thank you for this response. It is helpful. It is also helpful for me to understand why some on here assume I am a "Dubas fanboy". They are wrong and have made a large leap and assumption that just because I don't hate everything he did, I must be a supporter. I get it, if some people on here take that view then it must be exhausting for those that have a more balanced view of it all. If course, the opposite is true too.

As for your media comments, thanks for those too. It felt to me like some were supportive of Dubas and some were against. I really can't say if those two camps were equal in size. It did feel like Simmons and Kypreos were not very supportive of Dubas, but those guys (and Cox) have a brand of complaining so I didn't really take it as anti-Dubas so much. The Athletic guys were certainly Dubas fans or fans of his approach. It's too bad though, because you want the media to be unbiased. They are not.

I feel like you actually understood my initial question and tried to answer, and did a good job of it. For someone who just got active on this site recently that historical context is helpful. It otherwise seems quite confusing to see many thread come back to the GM who left a couple of years ago.

My non-biased political analogies would be when you see threads on Facebook that go like this.

Q: What's your favourite season?
A: It used to be summer, before Trudeau ruined it!

Or.

Q: What was you favourite childhood memory?
A: No Trump.


Me: WTF?!?! And in some ways it can feel like that around here at times. Again, I have no interest in having any political discussions on this board at any time. I felt the analogy to something that is playing out right now in real time might be helpful.

Thanks again for the thoughtful response.

 

[All Mod Cons]

That’s hindsight though.
If Leafs won a Cup or two the past 8yrs, JT’s signing would had been great.

To me I think the mistake was doubling and tripling down on advanced stats instead of using advanced stats as one of the tools to build a Cup winning team.
Dubas was so in love with proving to the NHL that he is the smartest person in the room with his ideas that by the time he realized his ideas/visions sucks, it was too late for him to change course way too late.
That’s also lead to the belief that his top guys were just unlucky in playoffs as the stats were all there if only they get bounces….instead of admitting the top guys might not be guys who can get the job done collectively.

I and many others said this at least 4 or 5 years ago. Kyle did so much damage so early in his tenure, he could never recover in time. His moves in the first 12-18 months as GM sealed our fate.

Additionally (and unfortunately) it has also sealed our fate for the next 3 or 4 years. We will not win a Cup, because we don't truly have the horses to.

I don't think enough people realize how Kyle absolutely screwed up an unbelievable position that this franchise was in.

People always like to use the word hindsight. They also like to call certain fans trolls, or accuse them of wishing the team to lose. Well those fans have actually understood the whole step of the way how and why the team they love just pissed away a golden opportunity.

All those "trolls" could clearly see, step by step, that wrong decision after wrong decision was happening without the need of hindsight.

 

[rumman]

...and then there's my opinion, which would be right in the middle of those two extremes.

I think your response is actually supporting the original poster's point, lol.

What was his point in your opinion?

 

[colchar]

You almost seems like a plant for the point I was asking about, and not in a good way.

Wow, what a crushing insult. How will I ever recover?

(a) Our team is a very good team

Not when it matters.

there is reason for optimism again this year

Results matter, not hope.

maybe we should be discussing that without always tying it back to Dubas

When Kyle Dubious' moves still impact the team, he is germane to the discussion. In fact, he is central to it.

Most teams don't win the cup or even rounds in the playoffs over a five year period.

What an incredible analysis. You are clearly a savant.

I don't agree with the adjectives that suggest it is a complete failure

You don't agree that only winning a single playoff round equals failure? What is wrong with you?

(c) That's my point. When it invades every thread you can't really avoid them, now can you?

Nobody forces you to read the boards.

In your opinion, what were Dubas three best moves?

1) Engineering his own exit.
2) Engineering his own exit.
3) Engineering his own exit.

 

[conFABulator]

I and many others said this at least 4 or 5 years ago. Kyle did so much damage so early in his tenure, he could never recover in time. His moves in the first 12-18 months as GM sealed our fate.

Additionally (and unfortunately) it has also sealed our fate for the next 3 or 4 years. We will not win a Cup, because we don't truly have the horses to.

I don't think enough people realize how Kyle absolutely screwed up an unbelievable position that this franchise was in.

People always like to use the word hindsight. They also like to call certain fans trolls, or accuse them of wishing the team to lose. Well those fans have actually understood the whole step of the way how and why the team they love just pissed away a golden opportunity.

All those "trolls" could clearly see, step by step, that wrong decision after wrong decision was happening without the need of hindsight.

Can you see how this could just be viewed as negative or pessimistic, or unfair we the the bar set for this team?

How can we be so sure this story is over? That this Leafs team can never win with these players? I posted it earlier in this thread but if you look at all of the most recent Cup winning teams (with the obvious exception of Vegas), they all "bottomed-out", built around a star and then took their time and lumps before winning a cup.

Barkov was 29 when he won his first cup, before that in spite of regular season success they went 25 years without winning a playoff series.

MacKinnon was 27. Stamkos was 30. Pietrangelo was 29 and Ovechkin was 33.

Why are we so sure our window has closed? That we have missed something? You attribute the dislike for Dubas that people have to squandering a great opportunity, but why are we so sure it's squandered.

Now, this is not the same as "we should have kept Dubas, he would have won here eventually". I am sure that those other teams changed GMs and coaches on their journey to the cup. So did we, I am glad we did.

I guess my (new) question is this, if this team goes on to win a cup does it positively change your take on Dubas' legacy? Do you give credit to Yzerman for Tampa's cups?

 

[conFABulator]

Wow, what a crushing insult. How will I ever recover?




Not when it matters.




Results matter, not hope.




When Kyle Dubious' moves still impact the team, he is germane to the discussion. In fact, he is central to it.




What an incredible analysis. You are clearly a savant.




You don't agree that only winning a single playoff round equals failure? What is wrong with you?





Nobody forces you to read the boards.





1) Engineering his own exit.
2) Engineering his own exit.
3) Engineering his own exit.

I am not here to fight about or defend or attack Dubas. My question was why some people seemed so intent on doing that.

You didn't really answer the question, but you certainly confirmed for me that some people absolutely are so anti-Dubas that it clouds their ability to talk about the Leafs.

(a) Your point about about Dubas' moves (you even did some cute little word play with his name) being germaine to the discussion is valid and fair. If this core wins the cup you would give him credit then? What are your thoughts on Yzerman in Tampa?

(b) When did I say that winning only one round in this era was not a failure? I said it was not a COMPLETE failure. I did say that Dubas teams disappointed and under delivered and that I am glad he was moved out? I really can't be held accountable or defend things I never said and don't feel even if you saying them about me moves your narrative forward in some way. Leaving words out can change the context of a statement; you know this of course and it is why you did it.

(c) What evidence do you have for the statement that Dubas engineered his own exit? What was his motive exactly? Is it not telling that you can't even bring yourself to list the three best moves a GM made in five years?

 

[horner]

I don’t think about Dubas hardly ever, when I do it’s because of something that gets brought up with the Penguins.

I’m not sure this is the issue you think it is.

I only think about Dubas when I watch Florida and TBay

Bennett a center when he was available.
Nick Paul a center when he was available
Now we have domi and Kampf as centers

We had so many center mmmm no we didn't

 

[All Mod Cons]

Can you see how this could just be viewed as negative or pessimistic, or unfair we the the bar set for this team?

How can we be so sure this story is over? That this Leafs can never win with these players? I posted it earlier in this thread but if you look at all of the most recent Cup winning teams (with the obvious exception of Vegas), they all "bottomed-out", built a fire around a star and then took their time and lumps before winning a cup.

Barkov was 29 when he won his first cup, before that in spite of regular season success they went 25 years without winning a playoff series.

MacKinnon was 27. Stamkos was 30. Pietrangelo was 29 and Ovechkin was 33.

Why are we so sure our window has closed? That we have missed something? You attribute the dislike for Dubas that people have to squandering a great opportunity, but why are we so sure it's squandered.

Now, this is not the same as "we should have kept Dubas, he would have won here eventually". I am sure that those other teams changed GMs and coaches on their journey to the cup. So did we, I am glad we did.

I guess my (new) question is this, if this team goes on to win a cup does it positively change your take on Dubas' legacy? Do you give credit to Yzerman for Tampa's cups?

What legacy? Seriously? What legacy.

Let's just say we win a cup this year. We won't, but let's say we did.

These are the players that Kyle Dubas contributed to our cup win:

Tavares
Robertson
Knies
Holmberg
Hildeby
Kampf
McMann
McCabe

I am fairly certain that we can discount Holmberg and Hildeby of having anything to do with a cup win. I don't think either will be on the "playoff roster".

Kyle definitely deserves credit for Matthew Knies, Bobby McMann and Jake McCabe. These guys are absolutely capable of playing their role on a cup winning team.

Then we get down to Robertson and Kampf. Personally I don't think Robertson will be an integral part of any cup win. I'm not 100% sure he gets through this season as a Leaf. He might, he might not. And Kampf as a 4th line centre, sure, Kyle deserves credit for that.

But in 5 years as the GM, absolute best case scenario Kyle has added:

First line winger
2nd pairing dman
3 bottom 6 wingers
4th line centre
Whatever people think Tavares is.

Do you know how many assets (in the form of draft picks and prospects) that cost us?

What credit do you need Kyle to get for you to be happy? For resigning Matthews, Marner and Nylander? Is that not a task any adult could have accomplished (especially at the salary Matthews and Marner got?)

I mean this in it's absolute most sincerity, I believe at least 50% of posters on this board could have contributed more to a cup winning lineup as GM of this team, given they were allowed to spend the same assets (picks and prospects) as Kyle was.

I honestly don't know what I am supposed to be crediting Kyle for? For every move that was good (trading for McCann) he over thought everything and completely screwed something up (allowing McCann to be taken by the Kraken).

He took over a 105 point team, who had budding superstars that could be molded into anything we chose. We had cap space on the horizon, draft picks galore, prospects coming along the way, and I'm supposed to thank Kyle for us being a good team?

We already were a good team. His challenge was to make us great. He failed.

 

[notdoneyet]

Dubas report card
Excellent at recognizing young talent and drafting same
Gifted 3 elite players on their ELC
50/50 at trades
Poor negotiator
Depended on stats too much
Could not build a team.
Put bandaids on goaltending his whole tenure
Put bandaids on defense his whole tenure
Signed Tavares before rebuild was over

I have him as a failure because we had the
Big 3 on ELC and that’s when he should have
Bolstered the team with enough talent to win. Instead he signed over the hill veterans like Thornton and marleau to
Terrible contracts also iffy goalies like Campbell mrazek etc.

Failed overall as a GM

 

[conFABulator]

What legacy? Seriously? What legacy.

Let's just say we win a cup this year. We won't, but let's say we did.

These are the players that Kyle Dubas contributed to our cup win:

Tavares
Robertson
Knies
Holmberg
Hildeby
Kampf
McMann
McCabe

I am fairly certain that we can discount Holmberg and Hildeby of having anything to do with a cup win. I don't think either will be on the "playoff roster".

Kyle definitely deserves credit for Matthew Knies, Bobby McMann and Jake McCabe. These guys are absolutely capable of playing their role on a cup winning team.

Then we get down to Robertson and Kampf. Personally I don't think Robertson will be an integral part of any cup win. I'm not 100% sure he gets through this season as a Leaf. He might, he might not. And Kampf as a 4th line centre, sure, Kyle deserves credit for that.

But in 5 years as the GM, absolute best case scenario Kyle has added:

First line winger
2nd pairing dman
3 bottom 6 wingers
4th line centre
Whatever people think Tavares is.

Do you know how many assets (in the form of draft picks and prospects) that cost us?

What credit do you need Kyle to get for you to be happy? For resigning Matthews, Marner and Nylander? Is that not a task any adult could have accomplished (especially at the salary Matthews and Marner got?)

I mean this in it's absolute most sincerity, I believe at least 50% of posters on this board could have contributed more to a cup winning lineup as GM of this team, given they were allowed to spend the same assets (picks and prospects) as Kyle was.

I honestly don't know what I am supposed to be crediting Kyle for? For every move that was good (trading for McCann) he over thought everything and completely screwed something up (allowing McCann to be taken by the Kraken).

He took over a 105 point team, who had budding superstars that could be molded into anything we chose. We had cap space on the horizon, draft picks galore, prospects coming along the way, and I'm supposed to thank Kyle for us being a good team?

We already were a good team. His challenge was to make us great. He failed.

Thanks for the well thought out response.

My first instinct was to point out that "legacy" can be positive or negative and that your question of "what legacy?" made no sense. We all have a legacy, it is the adjectives to describe it that change and define it.

I believe your position is that Dubas didn't do enough to make the team better and that is his legacy? I can absolutely agree with the opinion that we have not moved the team forward enough in his five years at that this is high legacy right now.

My question was that it if this team wins the cup soon, would that positively change your perception of his legacy. It would for me.

Your answer was based on predictions that Robertson and Hildeby, and seemingly Tavares would not be major contributors to a cup and who is to say if you are right.

As for your "his job is to re-sign the star players" well he has taken a lot of heat for doing just that. People seem to think they could have all been signed for less, again who am I to say that is true or not. It certainly does seem that Canadian teams in our fishbowl, climate and taxation model certainly pay a premium to retain and attract talent. Peterson and Miller didn't to Vancouver any favours, neither did Draisatl in Edmonton and let's see what McDavid and Bouchard get.

I would say if we win the cup soon, I would give Dubas a lot of credit for bringing in Tavares, McCabe, Knies, McMann, Robertson, Holmberg, Kampf, Jarnkrok, Hildeby, and Minten or Cowan and for keeping and developing a core of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Reilly, and Woll.

It is also my opinion that they wouldn't have won the cup without moving Dubas out and bringing in Treliving, who brought in Berube (not a guy I think Dubas would have hired) and adding to that core with Domi, Tanev, OEL, Benoit and Stolarz..

To my original and larger point, isn't this a reasonable way to look at things. This is not an either end of the spectrum perspective that I have dug into and can't move on from. It's balanced and needn't be recieved as divisive.

I won't spend too much energy on your comment that 50% of fans on this board could have done a better job that Dubas. None of them got immediately hired in Pittsburgh or selected to the team Canada brain trust. It's a ridiculous and delusional statement.

 

[conFABulator]

Dubas report card
Excellent at recognizing young talent and drafting same
Gifted 3 elite players on their ELC
50/50 at trades
Poor negotiator
Depended on stats too much
Could not build a team.
Put bandaids on goaltending his whole tenure
Put bandaids on defense his whole tenure
Signed Tavares before rebuild was over

I have him as a failure because we had the
Big 3 on ELC and that’s when he should have
Bolstered the team with enough talent to win. Instead he signed over the hill veterans like Thornton and marleau to
Terrible contracts also iffy goalies like Campbell mrazek etc.

Failed overall as a GM

I think this is a pretty good summary. I think it may have turned out differently if the cap didn't go flat. I know everyone was hit by Covid and the flat cap. The timing was bad for a team that invested in three young players with the belief the cap would rise and these might be good deals when teams have ten or fifteen million dollars more the spend.

...maybe we keep Hyman or get that goalie or #1 D? We didn't and he never adjusted, though it was impossible to predict how long Covid would be a factor.

That's not excuse making, I belie it is fact. I don't know how people can completely omit the impact of Covid and salaries on this team at that time.

 

[beleaf101]

My take on Kyle is he was a poor manager. He is a salesman and really nothing more. He talked his way to get hired by the Leafs moved up and ultimately got the gm gig. He fooled a lot of people. From fans to media to ownership.

What Dubas did reminds me of Rex Ryan when he came to the Buffalo bills after he was fired by the jets. From what l remember he said he would buy a house in the coldest part of Buffalo. The fans and the media ate it up but he was a bad coach

Right now we have an US election about to take place and we have an extreme case of this going on with a candidate who is clueless but has a following and has motivation to stay out jail. He is nothing more then a salesman selling you crap. Like Kyle ,Ryan etc etc.

To sum it up outside of finding a hot goalie who stands on his head Kyle will never win anything. We are very lucky Kyle got greedy or he would still be here.

 

[thewave]

My take on Kyle is he was a poor manager. He is a salesman and really nothing more. He talked his way to get hired by the Leafs moved up and ultimately got the gm gig. He fooled a lot of people. From fans to media to ownership.

What Dubas did reminds me of Rex Ryan when he came to the Buffalo bills after he was fired by the jets. From what l remember he said he would buy a house in the coldest part of Buffalo. The fans and the media ate it up but he was a bad coach

Right now we have an US election about to take place and we have an extreme case of this going on with a candidate who is clueless but has a following and has motivation to stay out jail. He is nothing more then a salesman selling you crap. Like Kyle ,Ryan etc etc.

To sum it up outside of finding a hot goalie who stands on his head Kyle will never win anything. We are very lucky Kyle got greedy or he would still be here.

I agree Dubas was a fraud and more of a sales person. The comparison to real politics doesn't track though.

The current one did nothing for 4 years and basically has managed them into a poly mess. Amassed record issues and debt and has been caught lying a ton while starting several wars with little deescalation. That would be your Dubas.

The former is more of a Brian Burke blowhard type that people like or hate. Did some good things well and kind of juggled crap around while remaining loyal to some special interests and failed to deliver. He was not all bad policy wise clearly that is supported by inflation etc.

Not a fan of either TBH but then again I struggle with that scene here at home as well.