The future of international hockey

[Albatros]

No Russia = not a serious best-on-best tournament. You know why.

Were the 1991 Canada Cup or the 2004 World Cup of Hockey serious best-on-best tournaments in your opinion?

With the NHL having a lock on all of the best players in the world, I don't see why the IIHF is needed to have a best-on-best tournament. I would prefer to have the IIHF fall by the wayside and have the NHL control international hockey. 1996, 2004, and 2016 were far better than the Euro-centric IIHF could produce.

All those tournaments were IIHF events. There will not be national team hockey without the IIHF, certainly not with any European teams.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I remember when Finland won in 1995 the circus following the victory went on for a month at least.

This time it was only five days ago and already old news which nobody talks about any more.

Is the sport losing ground even in Finland? Difficult to say. I think if Finland becomes a regular qualifier to soccer-tournaments it is inevitable that the importance of hockey diminishes.

Nope. Over half of the Finnish population are watching games.

 

[member 305909]

No Russia = not a serious best-on-best tournament. You know why.

Russia can start their own federation with their best buddies Belarus. Perhaps North-Korea and Eritrea can also be invited. Not sure if the latter has a hockey-team though.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

Were the 1991 Canada Cup or the 2004 World Cup of Hockey serious best-on-best tournaments in your opinion?

A best-on-best tournament without the preeminent European hockey power has an asterisk built in.

 

[BMacLeafs]

All those tournaments were IIHF events. There will not be national team hockey without the IIHF, certainly not with any European teams.

The 1996, 2004, and 2016 Worlds Cup were not IIHF tournaments. They were entirely sanctioned by the NHL.

 

[Albatros]

A best-on-best tournament without the preeminent European hockey power has an asterisk built in.

But if they send a team of leftovers like in 1991 or 2004 that's still best-on-best?

The 1996, 2004, and 2016 Worlds Cup were not IIHF tournaments. They were entirely sanctioned by the NHL.

...and the IIHF.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

But if they send a team of leftovers like in 1991 or 2004 that's still best-on-best?

Don't know where you're going with this. The WC teams are perennial "leftovers", particularly for the US and to a lesser extent Canada, and for every other participant because of the NHL playoffs.

We're talking about a legit best-on-best here. Excluding Russia entirely, because - reasons - ain't it.

 

[Albatros]

Don't know where you're going with this. The WC teams are perennial "leftovers", particularly for the US and to a lesser extent Canada, and for every other participant because of the NHL playoffs.

We're talking about a legit best-on-best here. Excluding Russia entirely, because - reasons - ain't it.

The Soviet Canada Cup roster in '91:
Butsayev, Fedorov, Filimonov, Galchenyuk, Gordiuk, Gusarov, Kasatonov, Khaidarov, Korolev, Kovalenko, Kozlov, Kravchuk, Lomakin, Malakhov, Marjin, Mironov, Prokhorov, Semak, Shtalenkov, Tatarinov, Trefilov, Zhamnov, Zhitnik

Russia at the World Cup of Hockey in '04:
Afanasenkov, Afinogenov, Bryzgalov, Chubarov, Datsyuk, Frolov, Fomichev, Gonchar, Kalinin, Kasparaitis, Khavanov, Kovalchuk, Kovalenko, Kovalev, Kozlov, Kvasha, Markov, Ovechkin, Petrov, Samsonov, Sokolov, Tverdovsky, Vishnevskiy, Volchenkov, Yashin, Zubrus

Yet these are somehow supposed to be legit best-on-best tournaments that wouldn't have been worthwhile without Russia.

 

[member 305909]

Russia should have been banned already in 2014. By this time we probably would have already forgotten that they even exist.

Moreover, Russia being banned in 2014 it should have meant that they wouldn't have hosted the most prestigious sports event in the world, namely the FIFA World Cup 2018.

 

[THE JAM]

Russia should have been banned already in 2014. By this time we probably would have already forgotten that they even exist.

Moreover, Russia being banned in 2014 it should have meant that they wouldn't have hosted the most prestigious sports event in the world, namely the FIFA World Cup 2018.

Exactly that - should of been banned already in 2014, if not earlier (2008 attack on Georgia).

Russia got away with snatching Crimea and in principle starting a "small" war vs Ukraine, but this was a "minor event" and no sanctions followed, russian teams were allowed to play football and hockey etc etc - this encouraged putler to try and have a big war now in 2022

 

[Lambo]

You're overestimating the meaningfulness of qualifying for football tournaments and then being eliminated in the group stage. Half of the continent already qualifies for the European Championship and there are plans to expand it to include 32 teams. At that point, qualification is more or less inevitable for countries which are not microstates and hence it would be a far cry from an achievement. Having said that, it's pretty natural that the first WHC gold medal evokes more craze than the fourth one, especially when it was preceded by an Olympic gold medal just three months earlier.

That's right, if Finland were eventually able to reach knockout rounds in football tournaments, that would be a big leap. Then hockey could have a harder time. In addition, Finland would need a superstar in football or super talent like Haaland.

 

[McGarnagle]

Diplomacy and sport seem to be much different now than 40 years ago.

The Miracle on Ice was so important to US culture because they beat the Russians in the aftermath of them invading Afghanistan and other cold war drama. Now the Russians get banned from the World Cup and all international stuff instantly. I don't know, I feel best on best should be best on best, regardless of how evil we're programmed to think the other side's government is.

 

[JackSlater]

I'd guess that short term we will see an Olympics and World Cup cycle with the best players involved, but before long the NHL will leave the Olympics. If there is a World Cup tournament with the best involved and exclusively national teams every four years then that's enough, if not ideal. The NHL could f*** it up again, as seen with the horrid 2016 World Cup, but I don't see any realistic long term possibility outside of the World Cup.

I'd also say that there is basically no chance that the NHL does anything to elevate the IIHF world championship. The issues with that tournament when it comes to the NHL and getting the best players are decades old and realistically beyond fixing. I'd be surprised if the NHL stays in the Olympics beyond 2026 but not shocked.

Russia throws a wrench into holding best on best tournaments in the immediate future but I doubt that it's a long term problem.

 

[aquaregia]

... I would prefer to have the IIHF fall by the wayside and have the NHL control international hockey...

LOL

The NHL would be fine if ice hockey were totally destroyed in all but Canada and the USA; as far as they're concerned other countries having strong hockey scenes and leagues just means more competitors to their product. As long as the NHL is the one stop shop to watch the best players in the world, all's rosy.

What on earth could make you think then that the NHL would be interested in being capable stewards of the international game?

 

[Hanji]

The Soviet Canada Cup roster in '91:
Butsayev, Fedorov, Filimonov, Galchenyuk, Gordiuk, Gusarov, Kasatonov, Khaidarov, Korolev, Kovalenko, Kozlov, Kravchuk, Lomakin, Malakhov, Marjin, Mironov, Prokhorov, Semak, Shtalenkov, Tatarinov, Trefilov, Zhamnov, Zhitnik

Russia at the World Cup of Hockey in '04:
Afanasenkov, Afinogenov, Bryzgalov, Chubarov, Datsyuk, Frolov, Fomichev, Gonchar, Kalinin, Kasparaitis, Khavanov, Kovalchuk, Kovalenko, Kovalev, Kozlov, Kvasha, Markov, Ovechkin, Petrov, Samsonov, Sokolov, Tverdovsky, Vishnevskiy, Volchenkov, Yashin, Zubrus

Yet these are somehow supposed to be legit best-on-best tournaments that wouldn't have been worthwhile without Russia.

'91 and '04 aren't good comparisons because every country had equal opportunity to send their best.

However, prohibiting players from representing their countries, or forbidding an 'elite level team' from participating is tantamount to intentionally manipulating the talent pool,

It's why the last World Cup was a farce despite an insane level of talent participating. The same would hold true for any tournament without Russia.

 

[Gold Standard]

'91 and '04 aren't good comparisons because every country had equal opportunity to send their best.

However, prohibiting players from representing their countries, or forbidding an 'elite level team' from participating is tantamount to intentionally manipulating the talent pool,

It's why the last World Cup was a farce despite an insane level of talent participating. The same would hold true for any tournament without Russia.

Wait, now the various iterations of the Canada/World Cup from '76 to '04 (that included Russia) were legit best on best tournaments? and here all along I was told that they were nothing more than just NHL commercial pre-season exhibition games for shits and giggles.

Glad we finally set that straight.

modern day Russian national team is hardly an elite level team. 1 aging center, a couple of wingers and 2 goaltenders is hardly an elite team make. Wouldn't have much of an impact at any legit best on best tournament. They won't be missed...other than their pre-game arena walk-ins where they try to convince themselves that they are still elite...of course the hot air in their balloon is generally gone halfway through the opening period.

 

[Albatros]

'91 and '04 aren't good comparisons because every country had equal opportunity to send their best.

However, prohibiting players from representing their countries, or forbidding an 'elite level team' from participating is tantamount to intentionally manipulating the talent pool,

It's why the last World Cup was a farce despite an insane level of talent participating. The same would hold true for any tournament without Russia.

Especially the Soviets in '91 had absolutely no opportunity to send their best, the same goes for Czechoslovakia even longer. Canada including Šťastný even made open mockery of it. Or earlier when some NHL or WHA teams refused to release their Europeans. Russia might have had more of an opportunity in '04 but either way it didn't come to that. But Canadians only tend to have a problem with '16 because it was their own team that was forced to be other than desired.

 

[tobu]

Get inspired by football, find a schedule that works for all top nations including the NHL once every four years, find a way where profits are fairly split amongst the participants, some profits going to player club teams (mostly NHL, but in some cases also Euro teams), and some going to governing organizations NHL / IIHF.
Europe can still get to keep its World Championship every year as there is demand for it.
I know it sounds simple....

 

[IceHockeyDude]

This may sound a bit edgy, but I don't even miss Russia at hockey. Slovakia, Czechs, Germany and Swiss are on a rise and basically all the participants are western democrasies. We don't need an authorian state to participate on a tournament with civilized countries. That's just how I feel about this whole mess.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

Perhaps there could be a Russian team participating within 5 years if all the players in that team speak against Putin's actions. Sorry for getting political, but sports can not be delimited outside of politics.

 

[jj cale]

Especially the Soviets in '91 had absolutely no opportunity to send their best, the same goes for Czechoslovakia even longer. Canada including Šťastný even made open mockery of it. Or earlier when some NHL or WHA teams refused to release their Europeans. Russia might have had more of an opportunity in '04 but either way it didn't come to that. But Canadians only tend to have a problem with '16 because it was their own team that was forced to be other than desired.

Canadians had a problem with 16 because of the gimmick teams all around, team Europe, team young guns NA...............those aren't national teams.

It was silly, which I'm sure you agree.

You just made that statement up , I could do the same and say European fans don't want the Canada Cups/ world cups because they can't win them.

I think we should try to discuss what we would like to see concerning future international events as the thread is asking for and not simply take this as an opportunity to get into the usual cat fight where we take pot shots at each other just because so many want to.

Far too much of that around here and it leads to nothing.

 

[NyQuil]

But Canadians only tend to have a problem with '16 because it was their own team that was forced to be other than desired.

I like how you keep speaking for Canadians as if you're an authority.

I'm Canadian.

Team Europe was a joke - I was cheering for them in the Final because I thought it would be hilarious if they won and undermined the entire farce of a tournament.

Did they even have an anthem selected? Was it going to be Ode to Joy? (the EU anthem?)

Canada clearly didn't have an issue competing as they won the whole thing. As I outlined earlier, the team that was really crippled in the entire affair was the USA.

I wanted to play a full-strength USA and I wanted a team like Switzerland to get another shot at a best-on-best upset as they did to Canada in 2006.

Those kind of gimmicks undermined any value for the tournament as a measuring stick, which is why no one attended it or really watched it, even in NA.

There are no bragging rights associated with this glorified all-star game.

Please stop speaking for a country you clearly aren't a citizen of, and maybe ask Canadians how they felt instead of simply succumbing to your own preconceptions and stereotypes. It's insulting.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

You're overestimating the meaningfulness of qualifying for football tournaments and then being eliminated in the group stage. Half of the continent already qualifies for the European Championship and there are plans to expand it to include 32 teams.

Admirable show of restraint not to make it all 55.

 

[Stephen]

Were the 1991 Canada Cup or the 2004 World Cup of Hockey serious best-on-best tournaments in your opinion?


All those tournaments were IIHF events. There will not be national team hockey without the IIHF, certainly not with any European teams.

But "Russia" was at the 2004 World Cup:

 

[Albatros]

But "Russia" was at the 2004 World Cup:

View attachment 555691

Yeah, with a team that was no better than what they could expect to send to the IIHF World Championships. For example in goal instead of the top NHL goalies Nabokov and Khabibulin they had Bryzgalov from the AHL as well as Sokolov and Fomichyov from the Russian league.