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The Former Hab Thread - Part Infinity

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pepperMonkey said:
Haven't been following the whole thread but is anyone really saying Subban has been disappointing offensively so far? I thought the reason most are saying he's not playing well is because the team hasn't been playing well, defensively they have been a shambles and Josi is not nearly as good this year... I.e. Subban doesn't seem to be helping the team win.
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They looked good when I saw them here in LA - tho the Kings are not the same team. Subban was being used sparingly in the third with Ekholm. Josi is the number one guy there. Strange team. Johansen is a floater, Neal didn't seem to want to give him the puck, Rinne is overrated, etc. That team has problems tho and it's not about PK (tho he did let Kopitar spin on the boards and center a pass to the crease - he was very quiet otherwise - tried to rush once and turned it over at the blueline and Ekholm I think stood up and seemed to be arguing with him on the bench).
 
What did we do to Juneau? IIRC he was signed to be the 4th liner (gave up a pick for his rights too) behind Koivu, Perrault & Gilmour.
 
Hugo Sham said:
Eller still bitter, sorta kinda disses habs;)

http://www.tvasports.ca/2016/11/11/eller-a-retrouve-le-bonheur-a-washington
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He's saying that he feels happy in Washington. He did feel happiness in Montreal, but last season sucked from December onward.

He says there are fewer distractions in Washington. By that he means media.

He says he feels he's playing better lately, he needed time to adapt to Trotz' system which he says is very different from Therrien's system. In true Montreal media fashion, no details as to these differences are mentioned.

He says he sees the Habs are a playoff team, but he doubts that they'll keep winning 92% of their games.
 
DAChampion said:
He's saying that he feels happy in Washington. He did feel happiness in Montreal, but last season sucked from December onward.

He says there are fewer distractions in Washington. By that he means media.

He says he feels he's playing better lately, he needed time to adapt to Trotz' system which he says is very different from Therrien's system. In true Montreal media fashion, no details as to these differences are mentioned.

He says he sees the Habs are a playoff team, but he doubts that they'll keep winning 92% of their games.
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He is right we will only win 90% of our games lol.
 
DAChampion said:
The power play was the worst in the NHL for several years running, which was due to DD. So it's reasonable to increase Subban's production by ~50-100%.

For the 2014-15 season for example, Subban was 7th among NHL dmen who played 40+ games in 5on5 P/60 with 1.36 P/60. However, he did much less well at 5v4 -- he was 49th with 3.75 P/60, whereas if he had been 7th he would have produced ~6.8 P/60, an 80% increase -- which confirms my estimate above.

Keeping his production constant at 5on5, Subban would have had a 77 point season.

You are free to speculate that other aspects of Therrien's system benefited Subban. That may be. But his production was certainly undermined by Desharnais' contamination of the power play.

I am glad for Weber that his power play production won't be undermined by Desharnais.
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Your first statement is simply wrong and undermines pretty much everything else you said, which still would be hard to take seriously on its own.

2015-16: 16.2% or 25th
2014-15: 16.0% or 25th
2013-14: 16.5% or 21st
2012-13: 20.7% or 5th
2011-12: 14.3% or 28th
2010-11: 19.6% or 7th

The statement, "worst in the league for several years running" is just not true. The power play has not been good, it has not been consistent, but it has not been the worst at any time, let alone "for several years running." Indeed, with DD and MT and without Muller, it was as high as 5th in 2012-13.
 
Chris Nilan said:
The statement, "worst in the league for several years running" is just not true.
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Maybe not on a season by season basis but overall we might be at the bottom since MT took over. I haven't looked but it's a good bet there wouldn't be many (if any) teams that were worse over that stretch.
 
Chris Nilan said:
Your first statement is simply wrong and undermines pretty much everything else you said, which still would be hard to take seriously on its own.

2015-16: 16.2% or 25th
2014-15: 16.0% or 25th
2013-14: 16.5% or 21st
2012-13: 20.7% or 5th
2011-12: 14.3% or 28th
2010-11: 19.6% or 7th

The statement, "worst in the league for several years running" is just not true. The power play has not been good, it has not been consistent, but it has not been the worst at any time, let alone "for several years running." Indeed, with DD and MT and without Muller, it was as high as 5th in 2012-13.
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It's in the bottom third of the league for the last three years so the point stands quite well.

What you're doing is nitpicking at details and losing sight of the actual discussion.

Subban, Markov, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, etc have all seen their recent power play production take a hit due to Therrien's love for DD.
 
I liked Eller, really wish it worked out, thought he might be the perfect replacement for Plekanec.

Sadly there are things missing from his game, I guess there goes the notion that MT was holding him back.

Wash was given him his ideal role, 3rd line centre playing with guys that has some offensive punch yet he hasn't show anything.

Really odd, he has the tools, and I think he understands the game well, but there is something missing, I think he is very soft mentally and I think the pressure got to him in Mtl.

I have to say Bergevin was smart to move him in the summer, I don't think Bergevin would be able to move him for anything if he played like this..

Its no the 3.5M cap hit but most teams also look at what they have to pay the player, he gets paid 4.25M this year and 4.75M next year, not ideal for what he provides.
 
habs03 said:
Its no the 3.5M cap hit but most teams also look at what they have to pay the player, he gets paid 4.25M this year and 4.75M next year, not ideal for what he provides.
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What matters is the cap hit.

Washington has all the money they need to meet payroll.
 
habs03 said:
I liked Eller, really wish it worked out, thought he might be the perfect replacement for Plekanec.

Sadly there are things missing from his game, I guess there goes the notion that MT was holding him back.

Wash was given him his ideal role, 3rd line centre playing with guys that has some offensive punch yet he hasn't show anything.

Really odd, he has the tools, and I think he understands the game well, but there is something missing, I think he is very soft mentally and I think the pressure got to him in Mtl.

I have to say Bergevin was smart to move him in the summer, I don't think Bergevin would be able to move him for anything if he played like this..

Its no the 3.5M cap hit but most teams also look at what they have to pay the player, he gets paid 4.25M this year and 4.75M next year, not ideal for what he provides.
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DAChampion said:
What matters is the cap hit.

Washington has all the money they need to meet payroll.
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You're both right. Teams that don't mind spending to the cap will look at the cap hit, and at $3.5M right now he is not providing value.

Teams that do NOT spend to the cap look at actual salary, and frankly those teams just would not be in the running for Eller at all.

So his actual salary limits the potential teams that could be interested, his cap hit is what the top teams will compare his contribution to.
 
DAChampion said:
What matters is the cap hit.

Washington has all the money they need to meet payroll.
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Agree on the caps, but I was talking about if Mtl kept him and were looking to move him now, his salary limits potential teams, as BaseballCoach said below.


BaseballCoach said:
You're both right. Teams that don't mind spending to the cap will look at the cap hit, and at $3.5M right now he is not providing value.

Teams that do NOT spend to the cap look at actual salary, and frankly those teams just would not be in the running for Eller at all.

So his actual salary limits the potential teams that could be interested, his cap hit is what the top teams will compare his contribution to.
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Lars is really struggling in Washington. He has played with some pretty good players and some decent minutes but doesn't have an assist on the year. 2 points, 7 minor penalties and minus 1.

DSP struggling as well. Weise has one point. Subban on pace for worst stat line of career - way too early to call on this one but he is producing almost nothing at even strength and has been getting exposed defensively. Early but may be predictive, its not like he's a rookie learning the nhl game.

I can't think of a player that has left MT's system and gone on to better things. PA Parenteau, but he was playing first line in TO to put up slightly better production.
 
japhi said:
Lars is really struggling in Washington. He has played with some pretty good players and some decent minutes but doesn't have an assist on the year. 2 points, 7 minor penalties and minus 1.

DSP struggling as well. Weise has one point. Subban on pace for worst stat line of career - way too early to call on this one but he is producing almost nothing at even strength and has been getting exposed defensively. Early but may be predictive, its not like he's a rookie learning the nhl game.

I can't think of a player that has left MT's system and gone on to better things. PA Parenteau, but he was playing first line in TO to put up slightly better production.
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They all sucked... Eller was the biggest mirage on HFboards (and still seems to be reading some comments) and Weise thrived under MT because he's exactly the type of player MT loves : hardworking blue collar type player with limited talent, not much results but oh boy does he ever gives it all on the ice... so give him TOP 6 TOI !!!
 
Lafleurs Guy said:
Maybe not on a season by season basis but overall we might be at the bottom since MT took over. I haven't looked but it's a good bet there wouldn't be many (if any) teams that were worse over that stretch.
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"I haven't looked but it's a good bet."

Let me think of how many ways this is emblematic of so many discussions about the Canadiens. The claim admits its own lack of merit. This is far from fact. It is not even an opinion. It is a loosely held assumption.
 
Chris Nilan said:
"I haven't looked but it's a good bet."

Let me think of how many ways this is emblematic of so many discussions about the Canadiens. The claim admits its own lack of merit. This is far from fact. It is not even an opinion. It is a loosely held assumption.
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It's not a loosely held assumption... they were near the bottom three years in a row. It doesn't matter if they were dead last, bottom line is that it was piss poor. As DA said, quit nitpicking.
 
DAChampion said:
It's in the bottom third of the league for the last three years so the point stands quite well.

What you're doing is nitpicking at details and losing sight of the actual discussion.

Subban, Markov, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, etc have all seen their recent power play production take a hit due to Therrien's love for DD.
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So you anticipate we'll be top tier on PP going forward without DD?
 
japhi said:
Lars is really struggling in Washington. He has played with some pretty good players and some decent minutes but doesn't have an assist on the year. 2 points, 7 minor penalties and minus 1.

DSP struggling as well. Weise has one point. Subban on pace for worst stat line of career - way too early to call on this one but he is producing almost nothing at even strength and has been getting exposed defensively. Early but may be predictive, its not like he's a rookie learning the nhl game.

I can't think of a player that has left MT's system and gone on to better things. PA Parenteau, but he was playing first line in TO to put up slightly better production.
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In the end we might actually see Eller's best years be under MT. People will hate it but who knows, it might happen.
 
DAChampion said:
As happened with Komisarek and Higgins.

ETA: Just saw that Higgins is now unemployed ... damn.
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What the hell happened to that guy? I thought he was going to be a 40 goal guy. Everything looked great and then he got injured and was never able to produce again. Hard worker too but the puck just would not go in for him.
 
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