Player Discussion: The Elvis Thread

[majormajor]

I've stayed somewhat quiet on the Elvis debate, but your post has me coming out of the woodwork. Not in disagreement just that it triggered me about Elvis and the coaching difference. EDIT - this turned into a rant about the prior FO and HC than I intended! TL;DR, but I left it all here.

If Elvis was a problem for the room generally, as suggested by Porty and MM, then the two people not currently in the room and most likely to be irritated by Elvis last season would have been Jenner as C and/or HCPV. And maybe Z, who is still in the room. Hell, they were also irritated by other things (Laine, losing, JK, losing, PV, losing).

My take is that "IF" there was wide-spread discord within the room last season specifically regarding Elvis, then Jenner and Z took up the sword, but with encouragement from GMJK and HCPV to beat that drum. My "guess" is that Elvis probably spouted off about the lack of D structure, lack of D support, something about coaching and the D generally - and that didn't sit well with anyone. And I agree that should not have sat well. In last year's environment, hell yes Elvis was a handful. He can be a handful in the best of times. However, publicly "demoting" Elvis to 3rd goalie last January based on off-ice issues, not on-ice performance, was a bonehead move - it was seen as embarrassing and undeserved, and both were fairly accurate reads. When/if there is discord from a player about coaching/systems, you don't demote and send "messages" through the media, no matter how immature the player may be. You sit all the parties down and you work it out. If it doesn't work out and the damage is that extreme, you send to the AHL, or you trade him (I know, not tradeable) or buy him out (not last year based on numbers). That's not what PV and/or JK did - they (or one of them) instead wanted to "send the message" that they were in charge and publicly demoted him behind 2 goalies at a time when his play was fine. All goalies are head cases to some extent. What you do to get a 21-year old forward's attention for repeatedly not playing D (a healthy scratch with video reinforcement) is not what you necessarily do with a goalie (a 3-week demotion, not one game) when that G happens to be stopping pucks relatively well under the team's overall circumstances. Elvis had been playing OK, borderline OK+ leading up to the demotion announced by GMJK and HCPV. They gave similar yo-yo treatment to Jiricek - never a clear consistent professional message, but instead messaging through TOI and through the media. Immature leadership imo.

No doubt that Elvis needs more than a normal share of direct leadership and coddling than most players - but that is true for several stellar players in the NHL. Every team has some of that, the better teams/coaches know how to adapt and capitalize on that. Assuming that Elvis questioned coaching/systems, that was not going to be tolerated last year for a second, because PV could not afford any questioning because he himself knew he was flailing; he had no buy-in from the room generally and was losing the room. JK suspected he himself was a short-timer. Mature (confident) coaches/GMs know that while the overal treatment of the TEAM needs to be consistent, the amount of time/effort needed with, and the tailoring of messages to, individual players will vary from player to player, and even from month-to-month. Even Torts got that part right- especially with goalies.

My opinion is that GMJK was never able to see that players were individuals with regard to any player - to him players had x talent/potential from a scouting perspective and otherwise you plugged those talents/potential into a team of interchangeable parts. From his perspective, every player needed to have Boone Jenner's attitude/approach. That is simply not the real world. My opinion is that HCPV was a rookie coach in way over his head and that became obvious very early in the season - PV's actions all year were more about defending his own hiring from the first minute on the job than they were true leadership. He had started to lose the entire team so felt he had to look strong in dealing with Elvis. That last statement is much more on GMJK in hiring PV than it is on PV himself. PV simply wasn't ready and the Babcock fiasco thrust it on him. Maybe PV will be a great HC someday; I know there will be some disagreement, but PV was horrendous last year, regardless of the circumstances. And if the choice of PV somehow is seen as excused by the timing of the Babcock fiasco, I disagree with that excuse - that was on GMJK making the wrong choice of Babcock in the first place. It was past time for GMJK to go elsewhere, and some of the Elvis issues got caught up in the FO/Coaching fiasco.

Counter that with a guaranteed "fresh start" from GMDW and from HCDE as to EVERY player - they didn't even want to discuss or view last year's performances. I would venture to say that the room was encouraged to do, and from what we see, has done, the same thing. I like Porty's writing, but Porty seems stuck on last year's targeting of Elvis and wanting to circle back to that whenever an Elvis sighting occurs. Not saying Elvis doesn't still have issues, what goalie doesn't. Elvis certainly could use more endearing terms than cursing, calling attention to himself, etc... But the only action out-of-line since the fresh start appears to be the overly-dramatic and admittedly selfish reaction to losing the shutout in the last seconds. Usually it would be the player who took the penalty and the PK'ers who would be pissed and apologizing to Elvis, but Elvis didn't give them a chance. I agree Elvis was out of line, and yet I also understand Elvis' reaction - I'd want the shutout too, especially after last season's escapades/blaming and also coming back from whatever injury ailed him. HCDE nipped Elvis' lack of focus solely on TEAM result IMMEDIATELY (and to a certain extent publicly to reinforce the message to the ENTIRE ROOM, in response to Elvis' very public display on the ice). The feedback was based on Elvis' specific conduct that evening. The feedback was clear, it was not degrading, it was given IMMEDIATELY that night and reinforced the very next morning. Not a benching - a coaching. That is what good feedback to a player looks like. And Elvis got the net the very next game and capitalized on it. I'd say that's good player response to good feedback. He still can learn more. How that plays out from here, who knows.

Sorry for the rant. Not an Elvis apologist, he has been less than stellar for stretches. Not sure he is an answer to the G position but for this season, yes he is part of the answer. No doubt he has brought a lot of criticism upon himself at times. But he's gotten ZERO help from the last 3 seasons of coaching (Larsen's laissez-faire and PV's reactionary coaching) - and skaters got that same ZERO help from coaching.
HCDE may not be a HofF coach. He may or may not be the coach to get you a Stanley Cup. But he is clearly head and shoulders above the last 3 years coaching at implementing a system in the first 9 games of a season and in dealing with professional hockey players and their egos. Hopefully, he's just as adept at holding players accountable in a professional way, and keeping the room for an entire 82-game season. Baby steps, but really good baby steps.

Rant over.

Agree that CBJ did not simply trade away the source of issues with Elvis.
However, I disagree with the Porty's suggestion that the players are "trying to bring Elvis back in" and with your suggestion that "we have little reason to doubt the accuracy of that reporting."

GMDW was actively looking for a trade partner because it appeared Elvis needed (had requested) a change of scenery.
But GMDW also was more than willing to grant a "fresh start" not only to Elvis but to the entire roster.
A change of scenery could very well be a change in GM/HC.
If Elvis' issues were perceived as a cancer in the room, regardless of the "fresh start" concept, GMDW would have eaten the contract and not risked him in the room. He did not do that. Elvis can be a huge PIA, but not a cancer.
Same fresh start from HCDE.

If if every player got a fresh start from GM and HC, then the players themselves also give each other a fresh start. They damn well better anyway.
I am huge fan of Boone Jenner, but if he can't see that many of the problems from the past 3 seasons (Elvis and otherwise) arose from poor FO/Coaching and from continuous losing, that's on Boone Jenner. Not suggesting Elvis had/has no faults, he had more than his fair share. Still does. But at this point, being a C is not being a company man supporting JK or PV or any GM or floundering HC. It is leading your teammates. Elvis was difficult to lead, but in large part due to HCPV and GMJK, as much as due to Elvis himself.

I buy the accuracy of Porty's reporting regarding last season. I do not buy the insinuation that the roster is "trying to bring Elvis back" this season. He's on the team and playing/practicing hard. They don't "bring Elvis back" he's already there. He has ego and communication issues - as have many top-notch goalies, especially early in their careers. Elvis has not played top-notch hockey consistently, so the combination of less-than-stellar play combined with an immature ego led to issues when the room was falling apart last year anyway.

The players/leadership group lead Elvis, just like they need to lead every other player on this roster. He's not on the outside looking in.

In my experience the bolded part of your post (I bolded it) is just plain wrong. Every coach, every manager in business, every leader of every group affects in many ways the relationships among players, staff, etc. Not the only influence but one of several major influences. When a boss puts one staff member "in the dog house" the response from the rest of the group is either a) to rally in support of staff member if the discipline is seen as unfair; or b) side with the boss and put the disciplined person into the group's doghouse as well, so as to not jeopardize one's own status.

The constant drumbeat of how "bad" Elvis is for this team, outside of his play, is just wrong. From everything that Porty has written, there was no despicable actions by Elvis - it appears to have been linked to criticism of teammates and/or coaching. Those were incredibly stupid, immature and wrong actions/statements by Elvis.

But if everyone gets a fresh start, so should Elvis, not just with coaches/GMs but also with the team. And yet the first little issue with Elvis regarding a temper outburst at losing a shutout results in Porty referring back to last year and Elvis still being "worked back into the mix." Was it a good look given the past? No. Was it egregious - no, go watch a lot of goalies smash a stick under those same circumstances or one of our players splinter a stick after missing an open net.

Since the change in GM/HC (i.e. the fresh start), I see a) continued good relationships among Elvis and many members of this team; b) nothing negative about his relationship with other players or the coach/GM; c) an improved level of play (although still not good enough except for past 2 games); d) a two-week injury stint that we will likely never know the root cause (exhaustion, leftover effects from Kivi's passing resurfacing as a result of JG's death, a physical injury, or something else?); and d) the TEAM is rolling, with Elvis a part of it and winning games with his teammates.

The past two games are just two games --- not enough to change anyone's mind (including mine) whether he is good enough/consistent enough to backstop a good team. But Elvis gets the same fresh start as every other player? Or is there a different standard for him?

If you said that Elvis is simply not good enough to be goalie for this team, I would not even have commented. I would tend to agree.
But intimating that something is still amiss in the room with regard to Elvis, that he's "bad for the team"- I see that as unfair and you beat that drum every chance you get. It's tiring and you caught me on a bad day.

There are always going to be hiccups on a team - there were hiccups with beloved Dubinsky, Bob, etc. behind the scenes.
Hell, Torts didn't think Foligno was a capable leader at first, didn't like him as a player. There were shouting matches beyond belief.
The difference is that the coaching staffs the past 3 years couldn't have handled those "disturbances, just like they didn't handle Elvis.
Elvis is a "loud" personality, and as G is much more visible - skaters can go to the bench and vent their rage/frustration/whatever without the spotlight on them. Elvis kind of likes the spotlight and its on him after every save and every GA. So I get he's a lightning rod. But he's not the cancer you make him out to be, and Porty has zero evidence of anything this year, just links every whiff of an issue with Elvis now to prior tribulations.

I'm rooting for Elvis more than any player. If he really turns it around I'm going to be so happy for him. I had a few tears when he got his shutout the other day.

I suspect this is why there is this sudden interest in revising the history around Elvis in Columbus. People are rooting for him and then turning that into saying he wasn't that much of an issue or it was other people's fault.

That overlaps with the other bias I think at work here, which is that anytime there is a changing of the guard in management, we try hard to lump every conceivable problem into a bundle we can blame on the old guard.

I'm sorry to attribute your posts here to those biases but I really have no other reason to explain how we're coming up with these new theories all of a sudden. Especially saying that the leaders in the room only pushed back on Elvis because they were instigated by management, that to me is the exact sort of thing people would say if there was a change in management.

It's far easier for me to imagine that the reporters who cover this stuff know better, and that given the fact that Elvis could not be moved, and given that the team has come together after the loss of Johnny (which also helps them appreciate what Elvis went through losing Matiss), and given that the team is playing well and Elvis playing well under Evason, it's just the right team to turn a new leaf. We had genuine issues, not fake, not made up or forced by management. Real problems that leaders would normally take issue with. And we are in the process of moving past it. Is that unrealistic? I think that is more realistic than what you're suggesting.

A few other random notes:

- GMJK is also the guy that let go of our old leadership core that we had under Torts and replaced them with largely mercurial players like Laine, Domi, Voracek, etc... If he was trying to build a team of Boone Jenner's then he got very confused in the process. The simpler answer is that sometimes trying to set high organizational standards runs into conflict with the way people are. Standards are good, and people can still be good even if they fail to meet those standards at some point or another. Those aren't hard things to believe.

- I did not have the idea that questioning coaches or systems is why Elvis got into trouble. I don't know where you picked that up from.

- Evason having quick and specific feedback for Elvis about the stick slamming thing - a very minor infraction - isn't different than what PV or Larsen or Torts would have done at times. That's a routine thing they would have done. The benchings that we heard about were for more serious stuff. Again this is typical when there is a new coach, we give them credit and give the old coach discredit, when it's all for the same thing. Evason has enough to hang his hat on. I would sooner ask, how is he so damn uplifting? That has a bigger effect on things.

- What is Boone Jenner to blame for? I'm confused where this idea is coming from.

- I haven't listened to Porty this week, just about to listen to Front and Nationwide, but from what I've heard so far he hasn't been very negative about Elvis this year, mostly positive mentions and one small aside about a possible Jarry trade. And I bet he's written less on the little stick slamming thing than people here did. Yeah it's a little thing that reminds us of some of Elvis' struggles in preceding seasons. It's not a huge deal and it's not a huge deal if someone writes a post about it. Unless Porty writes about it, then people go ballistic. I'm getting the idea that people think they need to protect Elvis from Porty. It's unnecessary.

 

[koteka]

This was several paragraphs into your rant, but I feel this is an important observation about the team last season.

My opinion is that GMJK was never able to see that players were individuals with regard to any player - to him players had x talent/potential from a scouting perspective and otherwise you plugged those talents/potential into a team of interchangeable parts. From his perspective, every player needed to have Boone Jenner's attitude/approach. That is simply not the real world. My opinion is that HCPV was a rookie coach in way over his head and that became obvious very early in the season - PV's actions all year were more about defending his own hiring from the first minute on the job than they were true leadership. He had started to lose the entire team so felt he had to look strong in dealing with Elvis. That last statement is much more on GMJK in hiring PV than it is on PV himself. PV simply wasn't ready and the Babcock fiasco thrust it on him. Maybe PV will be a great HC someday; I know there will be some disagreement, but PV was horrendous last year, regardless of the circumstances. And if the choice of PV somehow is seen as excused by the timing of the Babcock fiasco, I disagree with that excuse - that was on GMJK making the wrong choice of Babcock in the first place. It was past time for GMJK to go elsewhere, and some of the Elvis issues got caught up in the FO/Coaching fiasco.

 

[NotWendell]

I have nothing new to add on Elvis.

My biggest issue with Jarmo was he only seemed to evaluate a player based on the back of his hockey card or how splashy the trade/acquisition would be for him.

There was no construction of a TEAM, no thought to intangibles, no evident consideration of the player's mindset - especially in a contract year. That's with the sole exception of Bobrovsky after a playoff loss. Bottom line, no thought given to will all the pieces fit together - or if they have the WILL to fit together.

Ending on a positive thought, Don Waddell has already done more of this in the short time he's been here. So I'm optimistic about the future.

 

[majormajor]

Are the last two posts saying the same thing or saying different things?

Anyways I think Lee Smith was closer to the mark, if overstated.