The Current Jets Roster may be the Best Winnipeg Jets Team Ever in the NHL

[Mud Turtle]

Did anyone else see the DownGoesBrown Video Breakdown today?

Breaks down that 84-85 team.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nhl-grab-bag-a-replay-conspiracy/



some great snippets.



Well he disagrees.

I just cannot believe how bad the goalies looked back then.

 

[WayneGreatzky]

Can't wait till the Jets win a Stanley cup so we can bury any memory of the WHA like the Oilers did.

Why bury the memories? The Jets were a 3 Avco cups in 4 years WHA dynasty. Definately worth remembering imo.

 

[Jets4Life]

You speak with great authority. Tell us, how many of the WHA Jets games did you actually watch?
Or are you relying on advanced stats?
Did you know that 2/3 of the famous Hull line("Hot Line") was Scandinavian, along with their most talented D-man? I believe the WHA Jets had a total of 6 European starters.
The WHA Jets defeated the Soviet National team in 1978, making them the first North American team to defeat the best of the Soviet Union. That includes the NHL.
The WHA was inferior to the NHL in general, but the Jets team in its prime was fantastic and an absolute blast to watch.

I admit that I was too young to appreciate the Jets of the late 70s, but I have seen many tapes of old WHA playoff games. The Jets were the first North American hockey club to bring over multiple Scandinavian players, which had never been done before, so I give them credit for that. However, the Jets were not the first North American club to defeat the best of the Soviet Union. The Flyers did it in early 1976.

They may have been fantastic to watch, but even in the 70s, the WHA Jets had a losing record during head-to-head exhibition games against NHL clubs. The WHA was composed of a few star players and NHL veterans lured with big contracts to play in the league. The majority of players were journeyman, and AHL players, who were not good enough to make the NHL. Lars-Erik Sjoberg was a good defensemen, but he was in his early 30s, when he came to North America. Joe Daley was a journeyman goalie through his prime, only to find success with the Jets in his 30s. The Jets of the mid-late 70s were a powerhouse in the WHA, but you are giving the league too much credit. The WHA Jets star players (with the exception of Nilsson and Hedberg) were either past their prime, or not good enough to make the NHL starting lineup.

The Jets of the 70s were very successful in the WHA, and an important part of Winnipeg hockey history. However you can't ignore the facts. Bobby Hull was way past his prime, and put up better numbers in the WHA in his mid 30s than he did in the NHL in his mid 20s. Ulf Nilsson and Anders Hedberg were superstars in the WHA, but they never really made a dent in the NHL. So, to answer the question, NO, the WHA Jets teams were not the as good as the 1984-85 Jets or the 2014-15 Jets teams. Not even close. Additionally, I don't put too much weight in advanced stats, especially since the Kings failed to make the playoffs. Too many intangibles I guess.

However, a case can definitely be made for the 1984-85 Jets. If only Fergie didn't pull the plug, and trade Babych after an 8-9-2 start to the next season, the 86-87 Jets could have been even better. Babych was one of the main reasons the Hartford Whalers had so much success in the next couple of seasons.

 

[Jets4Life]

The Oilers were only 5-3 against the Jets that year. While the Oil had Gretzky, the Jets had 6 30 goal scores to the Oilers 5, and the Jets had 8 guys with 50 or more points to the Oilers 7.

Never know which way that series would have gone but it would not have been easy for the Oilers.

I wonder how that series would have gone with a healthy Hawerchuk and Gretzky out?

Good question.

I think the Jets definitely would have had a shot to defeat the Oilers, if Ducky was healthy and Gretzky was injured, as the 85 playoffs were the pinnacle of Gretzky's career. If only Colorado had not moved, and we stayed in the Norris. What could have been...

 

[scelaton]

I admit that I was too young to appreciate the Jets of the late 70s, but I have seen many tapes of old WHA playoff games. The Jets were the first North American hockey club to bring over multiple Scandinavian players, which had never been done before, so I give them credit for that. However, the Jets were not the first North American club to defeat the best of the Soviet Union. The Flyers did it in early 1976.

They may have been fantastic to watch, but even in the 70s, the WHA Jets had a losing record during head-to-head exhibition games against NHL clubs. The WHA was composed of a few star players and NHL veterans lured with big contracts to play in the league. The majority of players were journeyman, and AHL players, who were not good enough to make the NHL. Lars-Erik Sjoberg was a good defensemen, but he was in his early 30s, when he came to North America. Joe Daley was a journeyman goalie through his prime, only to find success with the Jets in his 30s. The Jets of the mid-late 70s were a powerhouse in the WHA, but you are giving the league too much credit. The WHA Jets star players (with the exception of Nilsson and Hedberg) were either past their prime, or not good enough to make the NHL starting lineup.

The Jets of the 70s were very successful in the WHA, and an important part of Winnipeg hockey history. However you can't ignore the facts. Bobby Hull was way past his prime, and put up better numbers in the WHA in his mid 30s than he did in the NHL in his mid 20s. Ulf Nilsson and Anders Hedberg were superstars in the WHA, but they never really made a dent in the NHL. So, to answer the question, NO, the WHA Jets teams were not the as good as the 1984-85 Jets or the 2014-15 Jets teams. Not even close. Additionally, I don't put too much weight in advanced stats, especially since the Kings failed to make the playoffs. Too many intangibles I guess.

I am not sure why you feel a need to denigrate the WHA Jets, who are such a storied part of Winnipeg's hockey history, based on flimsy knowledge and/or research.
I took the time to correct the untruths in your original post about that team and now am compelled to do so again, out of respect for Winnipeg hockey history and respect for the facts.
Bold #1-The Flyers defeated a Soviet club team, not the Soviet National Team. The WHA Jets were the first to do so.
Bold #2-The WHA Jets had a winning record against NHL teams in exhibition games
http://www.whahockey.com/whavsnhl.html
Bold #3-Sjoberg was not just a good or past his prime, but one of the best defensemen I have ever seen play in any league. He played for the Jets the year he turned 30 and was named best defenseman in the World Championships.
Bolds 4&5-From Wikipedia:
In the summer of 1978, Nilsson and Hedberg signed with the NHL's New York Rangers for $2.4 million, one of the first open acknowledgements that the quality of the WHA was on par with the NHL, making a merger with the WHA possible just one season later.
Hedberg had an extremely successful NHL career. Ulf Nilsson's was cut short by injury. Kent Nilsson starred for the NHL Flames, scoring >100 points one year. A number of others played subsequently in the NHL.

We are creating hockey history in Winnipeg at this very moment and that is a wonderful thing. But history did not start with the Jets 2.0 and may not end there. You should be very careful to research your facts since you weren't there for the WHA Jets, because you are probably offending quite a few people who were.

 

[Jets4Life]

Bold #1-The Flyers defeated a Soviet club team, not the Soviet National Team. The WHA Jets were the first to do so.

"HC CSKA Moscow was one of the most dominant sports teams in history, winning the Soviet championship for 13 consecutive years between 1977 and 1989."

In other words, it was more or less the exact same team. CSKA Moscow was the Soviet Club. It's like saying the Flyers played the 1985 Oilers without Kevin Lowe, and the Jets played the 1985 Oilers with Kevin Lowe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philadelphia_Flyers%E2%80%93Red_Army_game

Bold #2-The WHA Jets had a winning record against NHL teams in exhibition games
http://www.whahockey.com/whavsnhl.html

I had originally obtained info from that the WHA of 33-27-5. Perhaps the owner of the site had done research, and added games since I last checked years ago. At the time it had stated the Jets record was 3-5-2. I have no reason to dispute the current stats you have used.

Having said that, there were still 32 professional hockey clubs in the mid 70s. The point I am trying to make is the talent pool wa so thin that the game itself was watered down from 1966-67, when there were only 6 pro hockey teams. As I had said before, there were only around a dozen Scandinavians in North America playing hockey. I don't have the WHA figures, but in 1975-76, there were 446 Canadians, 36 Americans, 4 Swedes, and 5 players from other countries playing on 18 teams. That means 91% of NHL players were Canadian.

source: http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/nationality-totals/nhl-players-1975-76-stats.html

Compare that to 2013-14, where there are 510 Canadians, 241 Americans, 78 Swedes, 37 Czechs, 34 Russians, 32 Finns, 14 Slovaks, and 37 from other countries. In total, Canadians now make up roughly 1/2 of all NHL players, despite the population increasing by at least 10 million in the last 30 years.

source: http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/nationality-totals/nhl-players-2013-14-stats.html

The point I am trying to make is the talent pool is far greater and more abundant than at any time in history. The WHA Jets played when the number of pro hockey teams ranged from a high of 32 (1975-76) to a low of 24 (1978-79). Today, there are 30 pro teams. Today each club can select an player from any country in the world. That was not the case in the 70s, when the best Russians and Europeans were not available, save for a half dozen Swedes who mainly came to play for Winnipeg.

The Jets of the WHA deserve credit for being the first club to scout players from Europe, but as I said before, in my opinion, were not as good of a team as the 84-85 NHL Jets or the Jets of today.

Bold #3-Sjoberg was not just a good or past his prime, but one of the best defensemen I have ever seen play in any league. He played for the Jets the year he turned 30 and was named best defenseman in the World Championships.

That's your opinion. That does not make it fact. In my opinion, there were far better defensemen in the NHL at the time. Sjoberg played for the Jets from age 30-36. Besides, it is well known that Canadians don't really pay that much attention to the World Champions compared to Europeans, let alone send their best players to it (they are usually playing in the NHL Playoffs). I mean how many times have Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull, Messier, Bourque, Orr, Esposito, Lafleur, Bossy, Potvin, Trottier, Roy, Dryden, Clarke, Yzerman, etc. played at the World Championships, if ever?

Bolds 4&5-From Wikipedia:
In the summer of 1978, Nilsson and Hedberg signed with the NHL's New York Rangers for $2.4 million, one of the first open acknowledgements that the quality of the WHA was on par with the NHL, making a merger with the WHA possible just one season later.
Hedberg had an extremely successful NHL career. Ulf Nilsson's was cut short by injury. Kent Nilsson starred for the NHL Flames, scoring >100 points one year. A number of others played subsequently in the NHL.

Look at Hedberg and Nilsson's stats in the WHA compared to the NHL. Ulf Nilsson's lowest scoring season in the WHA was 114 points. He averaged roughly 120. In his best season in the NHL, Nilsson had 66 points. Hedberg played 4 seasons with the Jets. His scoring range was 100-131 points, averaging roughly 120 points. When he played in the NHL, Hedberg's best season was 79 points, and averaged about 70 points after. I do not believe he ever finished in the top 20 for scoring in the NHL.

We are creating hockey history in Winnipeg at this very moment and that is a wonderful thing. But history did not start with the Jets 2.0 and may not end there. You should be very careful to research your facts since you weren't there for the WHA Jets, because you are probably offending quite a few people who were.

Actually, you are taking this way too personal. I'm sorry if you have a big emotional attachment to the Jets of the WHA, and that is what is contributing to your belief that the Jets of the 70s were the best Jets teams ever iced. IMO, they were not. We can agree to disagree. It's called democracy. Besides, the OP had asked what was the best Jets team in the NHL, not the WHA.

 

[scelaton]

Actually, you are taking this way too personal. I'm sorry if you have a big emotional attachment to the Jets of the WHA, and that is what is contributing to your belief that the Jets of the 70s were the best Jets teams ever iced. IMO, they were not. We can agree to disagree. It's called democracy. Besides, the OP had asked what was the best Jets team in the NHL, not the WHA.

This will be my last post about this, because it is tangential to the thread and maybe not of general interest.

I reacted strongly to your posts, but it was not personal. The Jets story is more than personal--it is civic, provincial, even national and international in scope-- and it will be that much richer if it is inclusive of, and respectful of the great teams and accomplishments of the past.
Speaking of the Jets' story, keep in mind the story part of history. Revisionist history comes from people telling the wrong story over and over and soon it becomes newtruth. I am very sensitive to that on many levels beyond hockey, and have taught my kids to never believe negative historical portrayals unless they have checked their facts. If the facts are wrong, the portrayal must be challenged.
My disagreement with you was specifically about your negative portrayal of a great Winnipeg Jets hockey era, using incorrect factual information and speculation. I never, ever opined about the OP specifically.
You are entitled to your opinion...but it needs to be backed up by fact and not gratuitously derisive of a great team and era, one that is an important part of Jets history.

OK, I'm done.

 

[ShooTer44]

I would like to add that I believe that the best "NHL" team from Winnipeg was the team with Ducky and the boys from the mid 80's. But I would also like to add that I believe that the best team from Winnipeg was the team from the mid 70's(WHA). Was at the signing at Portage and Main and have followed and watched since.My beliefs come from witnessing hockey here in Winnipeg over the last few decades. But hey what do I know....don't have an abundance of posts!!


Best NHL Jets team ...mid 80's
Best Jets team ...mid 70's

Edit...Thinking that by the end of these playoffs , this years team is right up there. I also believe that this years team is just in the beginning of some great things to come..stay tuned!!

 

[Jaytee]

It is impossible, and utterly meaningless, to compare teams from different eras, because the styles, criteria, and skill sets are so very, very different.

The WHA Jets were, at that time, without doubt, one of the top three club teams in the world. The best team was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Montreal Canadiens from 1976 to 1979. Moscow's Red Army team was also top three, and the Jets were there, too. It cannot be stated often enough or loud enough that to this very day, the Jets are still the only North American club team to have ever beaten Red Army. The Jets played exhibition series all over the world, including Japan, the Izhvestia Cup (twice), and on and on. The problem is, it wasn't on TV, and in today's world, if a recording doesn't exist, it apparently never happened. Trust me...it happened.

Do not EVER forget that when the Oilers won their first Stanley Cup, Glen Sather said, on national TV, that the Oilers were modeled on the WHA Jets. This, too, cannot be said, loudly, often enough. They were the prototype for many things that have happened in hockey for the past 35 years - the influx of Europeans, the entire style of play in the '80s, and on and on.

Were they the "best" Jets team ever? That question cannot possibly be answered, and it has about as much meaning as asking whether Beethoven was "better" than The Beatles. Two different eras, two different styles. As ridiculous as it sounds today, in 1972, kids like Dustin Byfuglien would have probably been discouraged from playing hockey, because they were too big. Gordie Howe would probably never have made the NHL, because he wouldn't have been fast enough. Bobby Orr would have been criticized for not sticking to the established defensive system on whatever team he played on. I could go on and on.

It was a different world.

 

[Jets4Life]

It is impossible, and utterly meaningless, to compare teams from different eras, because the styles, criteria, and skill sets are so very, very different.

The WHA Jets were, at that time, without doubt, one of the top three, club teams in the world. The best team was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Montreal Canadiens from 1976 to 1979. Moscow's Red Army team was also top three, and the Jets were there, too. It cannot be stated often enough or loud enough that to this very day, the Jets are still the only North American club team to have ever beaten Red Army. The Jets played exhibition series all over the world, including Japan, the Izhvestia Cup (twice), and on and on. The problem is, it wasn't on TV, and in today's world, if a recording doesn't exist, it apparently never happened. Trust me...it happened.

I admire the WHA Jets accomplishments as much as any Winnipegger, but calling them one of the top 3 club teams, without a doubt, in the world is a big stretch. I'm sure fans of the Flyers, Sabres, Islanders, and Bruins would have a word to say about that. It's well known that the WHA was inferior to the NHL. I don't form that opinion from hockey forums. I form it from reading what players of that era said. I good starting point would be "Rebel League," which is a great account of the World Hockey Association.

Also, the Philadelphia Flyers were the first team to beat the Red Army on January 11, 1976:

"HC CSKA Moscow - (Central Sports Club of the Army, Moscow) is a Russian ice hockey club that plays in the Kontinental Hockey League. It is referred to in the West as "Central Red Army" or the "Red Army Team" for its past affiliation with the Soviet Army, popularly known as the Red Army. HC CSKA Moscow won more Soviet championships and European cups than any other team in history."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Philadelphia_Flyers%E2%80%93Red_Army_game

Do not EVER forget that when the Oilers won their first Stanley Cup, Glen Sather said, on national TV, that the Oilers were modeled on the WHA Jets. This, too, cannot be said, loudly, often enough. They were the prototype for many things that have happened in hockey for the past 35 years - the influx of Europeans, the entire style of play in the '80s, and on and on.

Sather definitely modeled the 80s Oilers after the 70s Jets. It's a shame he was never in the Jets organization.

 

[Jets4Life]

This will be my last post about this, because it is tangential to the thread and maybe not of general interest.

I reacted strongly to your posts, but it was not personal. The Jets story is more than personal--it is civic, provincial, even national and international in scope-- and it will be that much richer if it is inclusive of, and respectful of the great teams and accomplishments of the past.
Speaking of the Jets' story, keep in mind the story part of history. Revisionist history comes from people telling the wrong story over and over and soon it becomes newtruth. I am very sensitive to that on many levels beyond hockey, and have taught my kids to never believe negative historical portrayals unless they have checked their facts. If the facts are wrong, the portrayal must be challenged.
My disagreement with you was specifically about your negative portrayal of a great Winnipeg Jets hockey era, using incorrect factual information and speculation. I never, ever opined about the OP specifically.
You are entitled to your opinion...but it needs to be backed up by fact and not gratuitously derisive of a great team and era, one that is an important part of Jets history.

OK, I'm done.

So I'm a "historical revisionist" for stating the NHL was superior to the WHA. Ok then...

 

[Koonta]

Like someone said before it is impossible to compare eras.

If you could magically have this year's Jets play against the 1984-85 Winnipeg Jets as they are, with their better equipment, better conditioning, more advanced systems, etc they would blow the 84-85 Jets out of the water.

Now things may be different if everything was equalled out in terms of different equipment, fitness, training, coaching systems, etc.

 

[Andy6]

I admit that I was too young to appreciate the Jets of the late 70s, but I have seen many tapes of old WHA playoff games. The Jets were the first North American hockey club to bring over multiple Scandinavian players, which had never been done before, so I give them credit for that. However, the Jets were not the first North American club to defeat the best of the Soviet Union. The Flyers did it in early 1976.

That was in the series that they used to have versus Central Red Army and Soviet Wings. The Flyers beat Red Army, as did a bunch of other teams. Red Army was a club team. The Jets beat the Soviet national team -- totally different.

 

[Jaytee]

That was in the series that they used to have versus Central Red Army and Soviet Wings. The Flyers beat Red Army, as did a bunch of other teams. Red Army was a club team. The Jets beat the Soviet national team -- totally different.

That's right. I got mixed up. It was the Soviet National team the Jets beat, not Red Army, and the Jets were, and remain, the only North American club team to ever beat the Soviet National team.

And yes, the NHL was, overall, better than the WHA, but the Jets - not the WHA, but the Jets - would have beaten anyone in the NHL except for the Montreal Canadiens during that time. Not every single game, but on a consistent basis. I was there. I was old enough to compare. This is not an idle claim.

 

[Jets4Life]

That's right. I got mixed up. It was the Soviet National team the Jets beat, not Red Army, and the Jets were, and remain, the only North American club team to ever beat the Soviet National team.

And yes, the NHL was, overall, better than the WHA, but the Jets - not the WHA, but the Jets - would have beaten anyone in the NHL except for the Montreal Canadiens during that time. Not every single game, but on a consistent basis. I was there. I was old enough to compare. This is not an idle claim.

Well we can agree to disagree. I respect your opinion, but I think the Jets, for as good as they were, were just a notch below the Flyers, Bruins, and Islanders of that era. Too bad we will never know how the Jets would have finished in the NHL, so it's all pretty much speculation.

 

[Jets4Life]

That was in the series that they used to have versus Central Red Army and Soviet Wings. The Flyers beat Red Army, as did a bunch of other teams. Red Army was a club team. The Jets beat the Soviet national team -- totally different.

Would you or anyone have the exact rosters for those two games in question? It may settle the debate?

 

[YWGinYYZ]

This topic is not about the WHA Jets. Feel free to start a separate thread about the WHA.