The Coaching Thread Part II // Carlyle GIVEN TWO YEAR EXTENSION.. WHAT THE ****

[Durrr]

Guys, cmon, there is absolutely no way we get Mcdavid. A healthy Bernier playing the same level hockey gets us into the 10-12th spots alone, and that's with the team playing the godawful excuse for hockey it did this year. With players like Gardiner, Kadri, Rielly, JVR all hopefully a year more experienced we should be able to be higher in the standings.

However, this is not the point. Our coach teaches a flawed system, isolates players, has no real sense of accountability and overall is not teaching a brand of winning hockey. This is the kind of crap we need to guide the organization away from, the old boys club loser mentality (You know, his way is the only way). I'm honestly not worried about the finish next year (no way its worse), I'm worried about the damage bringing this train wreck of a coach back will have on our young players.

 

[jughead42*]

I think posters here are being way too easy on Carlyle. You don't get players who are right for your coach, you get the coach who is right for your players. If you build a team around what your coach wants it is destined to fail. Unless the coach is also the GM and we all know how that works out. Look if any of you were the GM of the leafs and the coach says I can't win with a guy like Clarke MacArthur, who was an absolute bargain claimed off arbitration and put up 61 pts, then I say ok you have to find a way to use him. Carlyle completely botched two of our best players last year trying to put them in roles they can't handle. Then this season he uses Jay Mcclement like he's Patrice Bergeron trying to shut down other teams and putting him out for offensive zone faceoffs. I just want to know who we are going to get that is going to fix this apparent personnel problem that everyone thinks exists. Was it a mistake to make Dion captain? Maybe. Are most of our vets not that great? Yes! Which is why we need to put our young guys in roles so they can become leaders. Look, I think there might be some issues in the room but I also think there was a massive disconnect between the coach and pretty much all of the players. The players aren't dumb, they see what other teams are doing and they see their old teammates having success away from Randy. To me, he cannot comeback. Doesn't matter who you try and go after. If they want to go hard after Babcock next year, slap the interim tag on Scott Gordon and run with that. I truly think that from what I've heard from other players regarding Carlyle, once they are out of that shadow, that he is not a good communicator, he is insanely stubborn, and has a massive ego (like most pro coaches). I think back to a few quotes from Kevin Dineen who talked about how he refused to run Carlyle's systems in Anaheim's farm system because it didn't fit his personnel. Look back at the records of those Portland Pirate teams. I also think about the Daryl Sutter quote about defending too much, instead of just getting into the o zone and keeping the puck. All these quotes make me think that time has passed Carlyle by. The last quote I think about is one from Bobby Ryan when he was talking about his time in Anaheim and how Carlyle didn't want his wingers to challenge guys on the outside and claimed Carlyle said "if the goalie can't stop that he shouldn't be in net." That is just insane to me.

Sure, it sounds like common sense to find a coach that fits the players you have, but if your players don't win any puck battles I don't think there's a coach out there who can come up with a winning strategy. I'm pretty sure both Ron and Randy already did that, right? It didn't work. If the players you have play a style that isn't conducive to winning, no amount of coaching and strategy is going to compensate for that. You don't base the style of your team and your strategy on whatever players you happen to have that's a recipe for failure. You identify the way you need to play to win, and you get players who play that way. It's absurd to suggest that a team should just bend to the will of whatever players it happens to have at the moment. If our guys don't want to win pucks, we don't develop a system to compensate for that we ship them out for players who want to win those puck battles. Essentially that's at the heart of the Leafs problems, willingness to do what it takes. These guys don't have it, Kessel said as much when he said “Other teams wanted it more, I guess,†Some clown with a clipboard and fancy resume isn't going to fix that, you can't coach wanting it. You gotta get players who do.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

we need to play maclaren and more, put macintyre in net the whole season, keep clarkson on second line and phaneuf and gunnarson on all pp like this year and gunnarson as third pairing. then i think we are in good shape to tank. we actually don't need to change too much besides keeping carlyle as coach.

McDavid
McDavid

Very good tank strategy.

You missed: Keep Reimer.

 

[edbrubaker*]

So Mike Augello is suggesting that the Leafs keep Caryle in the hope of bringing in Babcock when his contract expires after next season.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike-Augello/Coaching-Casualties-May-Not-Include-Carlyle/120/59827

Makes a lot of sense, Lieweke likes to poach big talent/names, probably Shananan's first choice given their history and they have ties. I remember on Leafs Lunch Jeff O'Neil saying that Babcock has a massive ego, if this is true you'd have to imagine that Babcock is better chasing a legacy in Toronto than Detroit (i.e. one cup in Toronto is >>>>> then five in with the Wings).

This would give the Leafs another season to rebuild and not rush/force a total makeover.

 

[Faltorvo]

he'll be fired on Monday, once the raptors lose to the brooklyn nets on sunday afternoon.

never underestimate the most successful part of MLSE and that's their marketing team.

Rap lose we hear from shanny on Monday

Rap win, we hear from shanny at a later date perhaps.

 

[Faltorvo]

So Mike Augello is suggesting that the Leafs keep Caryle in the hope of bringing in Babcock when his contract expires after next season.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike-Augello/Coaching-Casualties-May-Not-Include-Carlyle/120/59827

Makes a lot of sense, Lieweke likes to poach big talent/names, probably Shananan's first choice given their history and they have ties. I remember on Leafs Lunch Jeff O'Neil saying that Babcock has a massive ego, if this is true you'd have to imagine that Babcock is better chasing a legacy in Toronto than Detroit (i.e. one cup in Toronto is >>>>> then five in with the Wings).

This would give the Leafs another season to rebuild and not rush/force a total makeover.

It would not shock me one little bit.

Dets magic run is coming to a slow end.

Riding the wave of the insane drafts that brought Lidstrom,Dats,Zet, Frans is coming to it's end.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

So Mike Augello is suggesting that the Leafs keep Caryle in the hope of bringing in Babcock when his contract expires after next season.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike-Augello/Coaching-Casualties-May-Not-Include-Carlyle/120/59827

Makes a lot of sense, Lieweke likes to poach big talent/names, probably Shananan's first choice given their history and they have ties. I remember on Leafs Lunch Jeff O'Neil saying that Babcock has a massive ego, if this is true you'd have to imagine that Babcock is better chasing a legacy in Toronto than Detroit (i.e. one cup in Toronto is >>>>> then five in with the Wings).

This would give the Leafs another season to rebuild and not rush/force a total makeover.

I’d take Babcock without a second thought. I just love everything about him. Watching him on NHL 24/7 this year and paying close attention to him in the first round of the playoffs I’ve really come to like him. He’s a damn good coach and super likable.

 

[gabeliscious]

So Mike Augello is suggesting that the Leafs keep Caryle in the hope of bringing in Babcock when his contract expires after next season.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike-Augello/Coaching-Casualties-May-Not-Include-Carlyle/120/59827

Makes a lot of sense, Lieweke likes to poach big talent/names, probably Shananan's first choice given their history and they have ties. I remember on Leafs Lunch Jeff O'Neil saying that Babcock has a massive ego, if this is true you'd have to imagine that Babcock is better chasing a legacy in Toronto than Detroit (i.e. one cup in Toronto is >>>>> then five in with the Wings).

This would give the Leafs another season to rebuild and not rush/force a total makeover.

we should also save cap space for when stamkos is an ufa so we can sign him as well.

 

[Salgari]

So Mike Augello is suggesting that the Leafs keep Caryle in the hope of bringing in Babcock when his contract expires after next season.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike-Augello/Coaching-Casualties-May-Not-Include-Carlyle/120/59827

Makes a lot of sense, Lieweke likes to poach big talent/names, probably Shananan's first choice given their history and they have ties. I remember on Leafs Lunch Jeff O'Neil saying that Babcock has a massive ego, if this is true you'd have to imagine that Babcock is better chasing a legacy in Toronto than Detroit (i.e. one cup in Toronto is >>>>> then five in with the Wings).

This would give the Leafs another season to rebuild and not rush/force a total makeover.

We can tank a season with an interim coach, we don't need Carlyle for that.

 

[WinB4IDIE]

Your are right Loiselle, Poulin, Nonis, Fletcher IMO all need to go. Also how about the scouts? how can people like Mike Palmateer and George Armstrong still be working as scouts in this organization? how many failed regimes have they outlasted? and the lack of good draft picks speaks for itself.

OK, I'd be fine with the coach staying as long as some of these other guys go (i.e. Loiselle, Poulin, Nonis, Fletcher). But if they keep Randy, all of those guys, and only tinker with the roster then it's WTF.

 

[JohnnyBerts]

If you've watched the Leafs since Wilson was here you should know Wilson is not the man for this group and it should be apparent Carlyle isn't the right man either! It's a delicate group and you need the right guy here. Carlyle staying is a horrible move.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Scorecenter says Leafs preparing pitch for McClellan.

 

[WinB4IDIE]

Everyone was after Clarkson you can't put the failure of Clarkson on anyone but Clarkson. The main problem I have with Nonis is resigning Kessel and Phaneuf, how can someone around this team for the years Nonis has been sign these guys to superstar money? Its make no sense at all.

Kadri and Gardiner are players I don't like, name me one player still playing in the playoffs that play with the lack of physical intensity and downright disinterest in their own end then these two? the Leafs are full of regular season stars, but come playoff time they all disappear.

A bit confusing since GM and coach seem to have a similar philosophy.

Clarkson, signed by Nonis, is definitely a Carlyle-guy.
Kadri and Gardiner, who Carlyle regularly did not show confidence in, also seem to be question marks from the GM's perspective.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Veteran GM Doug Wilson of the San Jose Sharks wants head coach Todd McLellan back behind the team's bench next season.

"My support for Todd is rock solid," Wilson told ESPN.com Friday. "I'm 100 percent behind my coach."

Wilson shared the same sentiments with local San Jose media on Friday.

It remains to be seen what ownership in San Jose will want to do after the Sharks lost a seven-game series to Los Angeles in the first round despite a 3-0 lead.

Wilson hinted at possible roster changes this offseason but made it clear he wants his head coach back.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/1...ks-says-wants-head-coach-todd-mclellan-return

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Looks like TM is staying in SJ.

Would have been a top notch hire. At least we know management was ready to make a move.

 

[yubbers]

Wrong thread

 

[MajorLeaf]

Veteran GM Doug Wilson of the San Jose Sharks wants head coach Todd McLellan back behind the team's bench next season.

"My support for Todd is rock solid," Wilson told ESPN.com Friday. "I'm 100 percent behind my coach."

Wilson shared the same sentiments with local San Jose media on Friday.

It remains to be seen what ownership in San Jose will want to do after the Sharks lost a seven-game series to Los Angeles in the first round despite a 3-0 lead.

Wilson hinted at possible roster changes this offseason but made it clear he wants his head coach back.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/1...ks-says-wants-head-coach-todd-mclellan-return

It just goes to show that even with San Jose's epic collapse the management team believes the issue lies within the players and not the coach.

Carlyle may not be the greatest coach or even good coach at this time, but Leafs management is realizing that players should be held accountable too.

It would be the easy way out to fire Carlyle and move roster players. However, it looks BAD when the Maple Leafs continuously fire their head coach after major collapses.

If you were a head coach like Mike Babcock, would you want to sign a contract with the Maple Leafs knowing full well that in one or two year’s time you could potentially be fired and then have to wait months or years to find another coaching job?

In Toronto the majority of Head Coaches that fail end up not finding the same jobs with other teams because the failure in Toronto is so amplified that it's a black mark on their resume.

Here is a list of past Head Coaches let go by the Maple Leafs.

Doug Carpenter - Never coached in the NHL after being let go by Maple Leafs
Tom Watt - Never coached in NHL again now is a Pro Scout (Toronto)
Pat Burns - After Maple Leafs, Burns coached for Boston and New Jersey
Nick Beverley - Assistant coach in Chicago, then went to scout for Predators
Mike Murphy - Never coached after the Leafs. Currently VP NHL Hockey Operations.
Pat Quinn - Went to international jobs, never coached or GM'ed again in the NHL
Paul Maurice - Went on to coach Carolina and now Winnipeg
Ron Wilson - Waiting for an NHL coaching job

So over the last eight coaches only two had meaningful head coaching jobs in the NHL after being let go by the Maple Leafs.

It does not bode well to see this team run coaches out of town only to mess up their resume for further chances at head coaching positions.

It would be in the best interest of the Maple Leafs to keep Carlyle on board to see if he can turn it around.

The team should give Carlyle a second chance to show other good future coaches considering the job in Toronto like Mike Babcock that the team is committed to coaching and not constant turmoil.

Sometimes money is not everything to coaches but legacy as well.

 

[Pyrophorus]

We can tank a season with an interim coach, we don't need Carlyle for that.

If we're going to do this. Fire him and appoint Scott Gordon as interim.

 

[Pyrophorus]

They wanted McLellan, since that report is out, just fire RC already.

Obviously not what you're looking for.

 

[Daisy Jane]

It just goes to show that even with San Jose's epic collapse the management team believes the issue lies within the players and not the coach.

Carlyle may not be the greatest coach or even good coach at this time, but Leafs management is realizing that players should be held accountable too.

It would be the easy way out to fire Carlyle and move roster players. However, it looks BAD when the Maple Leafs continuously fire their head coach after major collapses.

If you were a head coach like Mike Babcock, would you want to sign a contract with the Maple Leafs knowing full well that in one or two year’s time you could potentially be fired and then have to wait months or years to find another coaching job?

In Toronto the majority of Head Coaches that fail end up not finding the same jobs with other teams because the failure in Toronto is so amplified that it's a black mark on their resume.

Here is a list of past Head Coaches let go by the Maple Leafs.

Doug Carpenter - Never coached in the NHL after being let go by Maple Leafs
Tom Watt - Never coached in NHL again now is a Pro Scout (Toronto)
Pat Burns - After Maple Leafs, Burns coached for Boston and New Jersey
Nick Beverley - Assistant coach in Chicago, then went to scout for Predators
Mike Murphy - Never coached after the Leafs. Currently VP NHL Hockey Operations.
Pat Quinn - Went to international jobs, never coached or GM'ed again in the NHL
Paul Maurice - Went on to coach Carolina and now Winnipeg
Ron Wilson - Waiting for an NHL coaching job

So over the last eight coaches only two had meaningful head coaching jobs in the NHL after being let go by the Maple Leafs.

It does not bode well to see this team run coaches out of town only to mess up their resume for further chances at head coaching positions.

It would be in the best interest of the Maple Leafs to keep Carlyle on board to see if he can turn it around.

The team should give Carlyle a second chance to show other good future coaches considering the job in Toronto like Mike Babcock that the team is committed to coaching and not constant turmoil.

Sometimes money is not everything to coaches but legacy as well.

Quinn coached in Edmonton.

you're making it sound "Oh you coach in Toronto you never coach again." well now there are more options than using the same old re-treads. more and more organizations are looking to the AHL and OHL to get coaches (or using assistants) rather than firing and hiring the same old people.

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

Looks like TM is staying in SJ.

Would have been a top notch hire. At least we know management was ready to make a move.

this is still possible. Doug Wilson wants him to stay, but the Sharks ownership hasn't given McLellan the green light just yet. i'm hoping they over ride Wilson's power and fire McLellan.

 

[MajorLeaf]

Quinn coached in Edmonton.

you're making it sound "Oh you coach in Toronto you never coach again." well now there are more options than using the same old re-treads. more and more organizations are looking to the AHL and OHL to get coaches (or using assistants) rather than firing and hiring the same old people.

That is exactly what has happened to the majority of coaches since the late 1980's with the exception of a small few.

Typically Head Coaches do get re-treads around the league but most who have coached the Leafs end up not being a head coach in the NHL.

Unless the Head Coach have a pedigree of wining from past teams, like Pat Burns, then the chances of a Leafs head coach finding another NHL job are slim.

I agree that NHL teams are looking outside of the re-tread coaches, but there are some coaches out there that may not decide on the Maple Leafs job due to scrutiny and resume hit if they fail.

 

[Suntouchable13]

That is exactly what has happened to the majority of coaches since the late 1980's with the exception of a small few.

Typically Head Coaches do get re-treads around the league but most who have coached the Leafs end up not being a head coach in the NHL.

Unless the Head Coach have a pedigree of wining from past teams, like Pat Burns, then the chances of a Leafs head coach finding another NHL job are slim.

I agree that NHL teams are looking outside of the re-tread coaches, but there are some coaches out there that may not decide on the Maple Leafs job due to scrutiny and resume hit if they fail.

So don't fail? We shouldn't tolerate failure in this city.

 

[gabeliscious]

this is still possible. Doug Wilson wants him to stay, but the Sharks ownership hasn't given McLellan the green light just yet. i'm hoping they over ride Wilson's power and fire McLellan.

i wouldnt be surprised if they did.


roster changes is good in theory but what pieces are they going to move? they arent moving couture or pavelski and they just reupped marleau and thornton. the kids arent going anywhere and there is no point in moving burns. the only roster change i expect to see if neimi getting dealt somewhere. other then that i would be shocked.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I can't see Caryle and Gardnier being together next season, rather keep the player than a coach that won't last past next season IMO.

Gardiner was one of the d-man he trusted the most at the end of the season and if you refer to his comments about the rover defender, that was most likely Franson imo.