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The Coaching Thread Part II // Carlyle GIVEN TWO YEAR EXTENSION.. WHAT THE ****

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Carlyle would be the easy choice but not the right choice at least not if its the only major move.

This group of players are epic chokers prone to collapse under pressure. Changing the coach will not fix that.

If rumours are true and Carlyle staying then major player personnel moves are coming this offseason.
 
Like Mess says, if Carlyle is staying then there should be serious changes in the squad. I'd be fine with this, as it would mean that Shanahan thinks the squad is the main problem. You try to address that first then and see what the effect is. If there are lingering issues then you start looking at other things, like coaching.
 
Nithoniniel said:
Like Mess says, if Carlyle is staying then there should be serious changes in the squad. I'd be fine with this, as it would mean that Shanahan thinks the squad is the main problem. You try to address that first then and see what the effect is. If there are lingering issues then you start looking at other things, like coaching.
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which is what we all wanted to begin with.

and if Carlyle changes some things in his coaching. it all works out (in theory).
 
Daisy Joy said:
which is what we all wanted to begin with.

and if Carlyle changes some things in his coaching. it all works out (in theory).
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Just worried that Carlyle will have too much of a say in what kinds of players he wants, and if we're building to fit his system short-term rather than with a goal of becoming a contender several years down the road.
 
Yeah I think it is a roster problem as well. I doubt it is something that is easily fixed though.

When it comes to coaching, one thing that I think is funny is that more or less every fanbase complain about their coach. They are apparently all stupid with major problems in their coaching. I find that highly unlikely.
 
noway said:
Fail under Wilson + Fail under Carlyle = Roster Problem
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i honestly hate it when people compare wilson and carlyle and immediately say its a roster problem because its the common denominator. :shakehead

the roster under wilson was quite different compared to what carlyle had. carlyle had the most talented roster when compared to the ones wilson had here, and yet he (carlyle) failed to get us into the playoffs. wilson had to deal with rebuilding squads his first two years here. the season he was fired was the only year i believe he was given a talented squad to work with. i think wilson would have gotten us into the playoffs with our 2013-14 roster. the only issue with wilson's previous rosters were a lack of competent goaltending.

i'm not saying to let the players off the hook, but there is blame on both sides. the current coaching system sucks and our D needs an upgrade, desperately. if both these issues are addressed, we should be competitive yet again.
 
I think it's time to give the kids a chance anyway.

We're at a point where we have a bunch of prospects doing well in the Marlies and playing hard with a lot of energy, everything our team lacks.

At the same time we have a lot of roster spots opening up with people walking.
 
I think posters here are being way too easy on Carlyle. You don't get players who are right for your coach, you get the coach who is right for your players. If you build a team around what your coach wants it is destined to fail. Unless the coach is also the GM and we all know how that works out. Look if any of you were the GM of the leafs and the coach says I can't win with a guy like Clarke MacArthur, who was an absolute bargain claimed off arbitration and put up 61 pts, then I say ok you have to find a way to use him. Carlyle completely botched two of our best players last year trying to put them in roles they can't handle. Then this season he uses Jay Mcclement like he's Patrice Bergeron trying to shut down other teams and putting him out for offensive zone faceoffs. I just want to know who we are going to get that is going to fix this apparent personnel problem that everyone thinks exists. Was it a mistake to make Dion captain? Maybe. Are most of our vets not that great? Yes! Which is why we need to put our young guys in roles so they can become leaders. Look, I think there might be some issues in the room but I also think there was a massive disconnect between the coach and pretty much all of the players. The players aren't dumb, they see what other teams are doing and they see their old teammates having success away from Randy. To me, he cannot comeback. Doesn't matter who you try and go after. If they want to go hard after Babcock next year, slap the interim tag on Scott Gordon and run with that. I truly think that from what I've heard from other players regarding Carlyle, once they are out of that shadow, that he is not a good communicator, he is insanely stubborn, and has a massive ego (like most pro coaches). I think back to a few quotes from Kevin Dineen who talked about how he refused to run Carlyle's systems in Anaheim's farm system because it didn't fit his personnel. Look back at the records of those Portland Pirate teams. I also think about the Daryl Sutter quote about defending too much, instead of just getting into the o zone and keeping the puck. All these quotes make me think that time has passed Carlyle by. The last quote I think about is one from Bobby Ryan when he was talking about his time in Anaheim and how Carlyle didn't want his wingers to challenge guys on the outside and claimed Carlyle said "if the goalie can't stop that he shouldn't be in net." That is just insane to me.
 
top 5 scorer in league vs. not a top 5 dman in the league? i'd say kessel is more valuable to the leafs.

off the top of my head for scoring wingers i'd rather have:

perry, benn, hall, sharp, kane, parise.

for "#1" defensemen, off of the top of my head, i'd rather have:

doughty, suter, keith, seabrook, weber, pietreangelo, subban, bouwmeester, lindholm, chara, hedman, hamilton, vlasic, burns, boyle.
 
dubplatepressure said:
Mike Babcock's contract ends in a year and there were rumours he's moving on from Detroit. Keep Carlyle one more year and go after Babcock.
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The ideal situation is we keep Carlyle, we drop to 30th place to get the first overall pick, we draft McDavid, then fire Carlyle and then hire Babcock. I highly doubt any part of this happens except keeping Carlyle.
 
sw13 said:
I think posters here are being way too easy on Carlyle. You don't get players who are right for your coach, you get the coach who is right for your players. If you build a team around what your coach wants it is destined to fail. Unless the coach is also the GM and we all know how that works out. Look if any of you were the GM of the leafs and the coach says I can't win with a guy like Clarke MacArthur, who was an absolute bargain claimed off arbitration and put up 61 pts, then I say ok you have to find a way to use him. Carlyle completely botched two of our best players last year trying to put them in roles they can't handle. Then this season he uses Jay Mcclement like he's Patrice Bergeron trying to shut down other teams and putting him out for offensive zone faceoffs. I just want to know who we are going to get that is going to fix this apparent personnel problem that everyone thinks exists. Was it a mistake to make Dion captain? Maybe. Are most of our vets not that great? Yes! Which is why we need to put our young guys in roles so they can become leaders. Look, I think there might be some issues in the room but I also think there was a massive disconnect between the coach and pretty much all of the players. The players aren't dumb, they see what other teams are doing and they see their old teammates having success away from Randy. To me, he cannot comeback. Doesn't matter who you try and go after. If they want to go hard after Babcock next year, slap the interim tag on Scott Gordon and run with that. I truly think that from what I've heard from other players regarding Carlyle, once they are out of that shadow, that he is not a good communicator, he is insanely stubborn, and has a massive ego (like most pro coaches). I think back to a few quotes from Kevin Dineen who talked about how he refused to run Carlyle's systems in Anaheim's farm system because it didn't fit his personnel. Look back at the records of those Portland Pirate teams. I also think about the Daryl Sutter quote about defending too much, instead of just getting into the o zone and keeping the puck. All these quotes make me think that time has passed Carlyle by. The last quote I think about is one from Bobby Ryan when he was talking about his time in Anaheim and how Carlyle didn't want his wingers to challenge guys on the outside and claimed Carlyle said "if the goalie can't stop that he shouldn't be in net." That is just insane to me.
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i agree with all of this. i don't think he's evolved that much.
 
Were the worst puck possession team in the league (buffalo and Florida are emarassingly better than us). Don't be surprised if were drafting top 5 next year with Carlyle as coach.
 
noway said:
Fail under Wilson + Fail under Carlyle = Roster Problem
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it equals 2 coachs that don't know how to coach in the new nhl. They do need to trade a dion and another core player to shake up the team, to let them no they could be next out of town if things don't change. But please fire that bald ****
 
Nithoniniel said:
Like Mess says, if Carlyle is staying then there should be serious changes in the squad. I'd be fine with this, as it would mean that Shanahan thinks the squad is the main problem. You try to address that first then and see what the effect is. If there are lingering issues then you start looking at other things, like coaching.
Click to expand...


the problem is, it's easier the change a coach than a whole group of players to improve a team. nonis showed this when he traded and signed players last year that worsened the team. also, if you change a whole lot of players, there is less room to recover than if you change a coach (anaheim? etc.)
 
Diatomic said:
Were the worst puck possession team in the league (buffalo and Florida are emarassingly better than us). Don't be surprised if were drafting top 5 next year with Carlyle as coach.
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we need to play maclaren and more, put macintyre in net the whole season, keep clarkson on second line and phaneuf and gunnarson on all pp like this year and gunnarson as third pairing. then i think we are in good shape to tank. we actually don't need to change too much besides keeping carlyle as coach.
 
Anaheim had horrifically bad possession numbers towards the end of Carlyle's tenure there, and they're significantly better in that regard now without much of a roster turnover. And it's not like they have a breadth of big, intimidating guys either, beyond Getzlaf/Perry. They have some good, young, big-bodied players like DSP and Etem, but their bottom nine is filled out primarily with guys like Selanne, Koivu, Silfverberg, Cogliano, Palmieri, Perreault, etc. There's no reason a team like ours, while less than ideal, should have worse possession numbers than Buffalo, Florida and Edmonton.

Compound that with this mentality the coaching staff seem to have that it's okay to be dramatically out-chanced every night, as well as the turbulent relationships Carlyle's had with a number of players, and it's completely absurd that he even still has a job now. How on Earth can you even entertain the idea of holding onto a coach after your team sets a new NHL record for shots against over 82 games?

To some extent it has to fall on the players' shoulders as well, but this is such an obvious coaching issue.
 
I think Carlyle will be gone, but there still has to be significant changes in the roster. No problem with Shanny taking his time...I think this is how he operates (thorough and methodical), but making the right moves is the key. Let's just have patience.
 
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