Speculation: The coaching search continues

[Relapsing]

Why is that an issue? It has no cap implications, so long as we are willing to fire him if it doesn't work out what impact does this have?

How much digital ink gets spilled around here talking about how we're a small market team that needs to spend our money wisely?

If we fire him before his contract ends, all it is is a waste of money. If we sign him to a shorter contract, SS could always extend him.

Now we're into sunk cost fallacy land. We went through years of Dorion not making timely decisions because of sunk cost fallacy. I have no appetite to repeat it.

It's an over commitment to a coach that doesn't have anywhere close to a winning record in his last two stints. It's unnecessarily long.

And if a 4 year commitment was the only way to get Green here, then you move on and choose someone else.

I'm not afraid I'm pissed off

Yeah, straight up pissed at this one.

New Ownership had a chance to change things here, and it feels like we're just repeating the same crap from before.

 

[BondraTime]

I'm not afraid I'm pissed off

Then it wasn't directed towards you

 

[bert]

That's great and all...to each their own...

But then why are you here? Why are you actively participating in a thread where people are sharing their judgement while claiming to not pass judgement. You're just coming on here to tell others not to pass judgement? Seems like strange way of thinking on a message board.

Like "hmmm, I'm bored. I feel like going on hfboards, a forum where people share their opinions, and tell people not to share their opinions."


Obviously no one ultimately knows how this will turn out in great detail, but why even come remotely close to telling people not to share their opinions or predictions of what will happen?

What do you think the point of this message forum is for?

I'm here to analyze the relevant data that we have on the decisions. Not to bitch and moan about a coach because he played for the leafs in the early 2000's. Not to claim the owner is cheap or suggest this management team is anything like the previous. You can if you want I don't care. Unwarranted crying about unsubstantiated opinions I have no time for.

Staios and Co interviewed what 10 candidates? Multiple times? They kept their cards tight to their chest. They hired someone with experience. The previous regime did non of that.

I'll gladly engage in talks about Greens past as a coach what he did and didn't accomplish. What type of coach he is. That's relevant. That's why I'm here.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

What does he know? Haha.... Man reading this site is a welcome awakening. No real productive discussion to be had. I tried, nothing but trolling or pure negativity was the response.


In what world is Simmer providing better analysis than Corrado or Johnson? Do people actually listen to these people and deduce that Simmer is a better hockey mind?

I think I've had my fair share around here. I'll repeat it again Green wasn't even close to my first choice, 2nd or 3rd but there's obviously nothing productive being accomplished.

Hopefully the sens win the lottery tonight. If they win I'll be celebrating with fans that are capable of being objective and open to having an impartial conversation.

I listened to the Corrado & Pounder interviews. At least it was something more than fan reaction based on Green’s won/loss (point percentage) record. Vancouver was a pretty dysfunctional environment. If there was a GM that might have been worse than Dorion, it would have been Benning in Vancouver.

One thing that I thought was a positive is that Green gets to know his players and their personalities and uses different approaches to motivate them versus just one standard approach for all players. I think that is a positive and well suited to youthful NHL players today.

The only thing I would have liked to hear more about was the systems Green likes to use. Corrado got that question in his interview, but all he said is that Green emphasizes an aggressive style which I assume meant an aggressive forecheck based on other words he used. I wish Corrado would have dug a little deeper into that topic though.

I know enough about what I don’t know. And I know that I’m not in the team’s dressing room, or on the ice during practice, or on the bench listening to what the coach is telling players. So, when I’m evaluating something that I have very little information on, I try to take that into perspective. I guess I feel like I don’t have to have a strong opinion about everything, and especially about things in which I have little subject matter information.

 

[jbeck5]

Agreed this site is unbearable at the moment. The worst part of it is some people are so distraught they won't engage in any actual honest and factual conversation. It's impossible right now. Look at the Corrado slander. This is one of the best hockey analysts on the Planet that would educate absolutely everyone here on the sport. He actually played for Green. About as good a source as you could have. He's a regular on TSN1200 he has one or two spots a week and covers hockey on television for TSN. But is being ripped on like he'd a nobody. Sad state around here.


It was sarcasm sorry it wasn't evident.

They're worried he's not being objective. They're worried he's only talking about the positive and not the negatives.

Like, what is the list of negatives that he listed about green?

An objective analysis would have the pros and cons.

If it's just mostly pros, you know there is an agenda behind his words being printed or recorded. The media is trying to give us a happy piece. Fans aren't buying it.

We don't want a bias quote or article that is from someone who will only say good things. I want to know what players hate or dislike about him. I want to know why he wasn't able to have success without blaming others.


It sounds like a one sided rose coloured glasses piece if they just say good things about a guy with bad records. Clearly there is negative around him too. What are the negatives???

I'm here to analyze the relevant data that we have on the decisions. Not to bitch and moan about a coach because he played for the leafs in the early 2000's. Not to claim the owner is cheap or suggest this management team is anything like the previous. You can if you want I don't care. Unwarranted crying about unsubstantiated opinions I have no time for.

Staios and Co interviewed what 10 candidates? Multiple times? They kept their cards tight to their chest. They hired someone with experience. The previous regime did non of that.

I'll gladly engage in talks about Greens past as a coach what he did and didn't accomplish. What type of coach he is. That's relevant. That's why I'm here.

You definitely have time for bitching and moaning if you're here.

So why don't you tell us of all the negatives of what he has or hasn't accomplished as well as the negatives of what type of coach he is.

I've heard the crying. I've heard the positives. You want constructive conversation?

Without bitching, write down a list of all the negatives about green and his coaching. Let's talk about those things.

 

[jbeck5]

What don’t you like about him? Or is this a Brady tkachuk draft day type rant?

Everything I've seen about the type of person he is. You're forgetting we've been fans for decades. We knew who green was when he was a prospect. We knew who he was when he was breaking into the league. We know who he was when he retired.

Did he magically change? If so, I'd like to see proof.

Also, his record looks awful. The complaints about him sound awful.

What are the positives with statistical evidence of those positive attributes?

His take was kind of fluffy. Didn’t really get into his flaws. I think they asked him about players not getting along with him, and he said that he doesn’t always tell you what you want to hear but he tells you what you need to hear.

I think Farhan had a more balanced take yesterday, where he acknowledged the players weren’t ready to be coached but also said Green could’ve communicated differently when mistakes were made. He did say he believes he learned from it, but who knows.

See, the thing is, his record indicates much more negative than positive.. so if a piece is mostly positive, you know it's a fluff piece.

With his track record, you would expect 75% of the article to be negative if it was very accurate...if it's 75% positive, it's clearly not accurately displaying the results.

 

[flyingfingers]

I'm here to analyze the relevant data that we have on the decisions. Not to bitch and moan about a coach because he played for the leafs in the early 2000's. Not to claim the owner is cheap or suggest this management team is anything like the previous. You can if you want I don't care. Unwarranted crying about unsubstantiated opinions I have no time for.

Staios and Co interviewed what 10 candidates? Multiple times? They kept their cards tight to their chest. They hired someone with experience. The previous regime did non of that.

I'll gladly engage in talks about Greens past as a coach what he did and didn't accomplish. What type of coach he is. That's relevant. That's why I'm here.

There aren't many people bitching about him playing for the Leafs in the early 2000's.

People are bitching because:

• He had sub .500 winning % over 4.25 years in Vancouver, results not much better than what DJ Smith had here
• The underlying numbers suggest the team was even worse than their record, but they were propped up by well above average goaltending (which he probably won't have here). They were porous defensively (similar numbers to DJ's Senators) but didn't generate as many scoring chances as we did at 5v5. At the least, our bad defense could be blamed on players cheating for offense. Vancouver players didn't cheat on offense but still didn't defend.
• Canucks fans own accounts seem to confirm the numbers - Vancouver was poorly coached and miserable to watch during his tenure
• After taking over in NJ, the team actually did worse despite getting much better goaltending than they did in the first 3/4 of the season
• Devils fans, after just ~25 games, couldn't wait to be rid of him

If you want to chalk that all up to "people hate him because of 2003" and cling to the words of Frankie Corrado, a guy who played for him in the AHL and is now employed by the team's media partner, that's fine, but don't dismiss other people's very reasonable criticisms.

 

[Micklebot]

How much digital ink gets spilled around here talking about how we're a small market team that needs to spend our money wisely?

If we fire him before his contract ends, all it is is a waste of money. If we sign him to a shorter contract, SS could always extend him.

Now we're into sunk cost fallacy land. We went through years of Dorion not making timely decisions because of sunk cost fallacy. I have no appetite to repeat it.

It's an over commitment to a coach that doesn't have anywhere close to a winning record in his last two stints. It's unnecessarily long.

And if a 4 year commitment was the only way to get Green here, then you move on and choose someone else.


Yeah, straight up pissed at this one.

New Ownership had a chance to change things here, and it feels like we're just repeating the same crap from before.

A 4 year commitment might mean he accepted a lower dollar amount, if we fire him and another picks him up they take over a portion of all of his salary.

You assume the worst case, but longer term has potential positives too and some of the negatives are mitigated if he gets hired by another club (like DJ was).

People need to step away from the ledge and see how it plays out before assuming they know better imo. If Green fails spectacularly, by all means, say I told you so,

 

[OccidentalSoothsayer]

4 year deal

 

[Relapsing]

A 4 year commitment might mean he accepted a lower dollar amount, if we fire him and another picks him up they take over a portion of all of his salary.

You assume the worst case, but longer term has potential positives too and some of the negatives are mitigated if he gets hired by another club (like DJ was).

People need to step away from the ledge and see how it plays out before assuming they know better imo. If Green fails spectacularly, by all means, say I told you so,

This team has sapped me of my ability to hope for the best.

Whatever hypothetical, the reality is SS gave him a 4 year contract. To a guy who has a losing record in his last 2 stints. Who has had almost no time to learn from whatever he did wrong in NJ.

There is no benefit of the doubt left for me to give this management group. Trust is earned, not freely given.

 

[flyingfingers]

This team has sapped me of my ability to hope for the best.

Whatever hypothetical, the reality is SS gave him a 4 year contract. To a guy who has a losing record in his last 2 stints. Who has had almost no time to learn from whatever he did wrong in NJ.

There is no benefit of the doubt left for me to give this management group. Trust is earned, not freely given.

It's crazy how quickly they've already bungled the goodwill from "not being Eugene Melnyk".

If I had had the chance to give the new owner one piece of advice, it would've been to not make bold pronouncements via catchphrases in the media if he wasn't actually going to back them up.

But he did.

He talked about having a "best-in-class two headed monster at the president of hockey ops and general manager" positions.

But he hired a rookie president who quickly appointed himself to also be the gm. Some two-headed monster.

Staios went ahead and talked about bringing in an experienced winner as coach. Then he hired a guy who's record closely resembles DJ Smith.

This may all work out, but the optics of it are pretty bad.

 

[Micklebot]

This team has sapped me of my ability to hope for the best.

Whatever hypothetical, the reality is SS gave him a 4 year contract. To a guy who has a losing record in his last 2 stints. Who has had almost no time to learn from whatever he did wrong in NJ.

There is no benefit of the doubt left for me to give this management group. Trust is earned, not freely given.

Probably because Staios looked deeper than hockey DB?

4 year contract really is a non-issue, DJwas here 5 years, MacLean 4 years, Boucher 3,

Honestly, some of you are just looking for reasons to complain at this point

 

[BondraTime]

In my 20 years here, this may be the largest overreaction I've seen, and that's saying something. And I'd be surprised if 2% had any idea what he's like as a coach

 

[flyingfingers]

Probably because Staios looked deeper than hockey DB?

4 year contract really is a non-issue, DJwas here 5 years, MacLean 4 years, Boucher 3,

Honestly, some of you are just looking for reasons to complain at this point

Do you think his search was as exhaustive and intense as the one that led to him naming himself as the general manager?

 

[PlayOn]

Do you think his search was as exhaustive and intense as the one that led to him naming himself as the general manager?

He wants to hire Bowness but probably doesn’t want him to throw him into the line of fire just yet. Is it really that terrible he decided to promote from within?

 

[flyingfingers]

In my 20 years here, this may be the largest overreaction I've seen, and that's saying something. And I'd be surprised if 2% had any idea what he's like as a coach

The nice thing about sports, especially in today's age, is that the results of a coach are easy to access and interpret.

Travis Green's results are not good. On any level.

During the year, so many on this board talk about how they want the team to be more analytical in their thinking and decision-making.

But now, many of the same people are disregarding the numbers and talking about how we can't really judge Travis Green because look here's an interview where says the same bzzwords as DJ Smith did.

He wants to hire Bowness but probably doesn’t want him to throw him into the line of fire just yet. Is it really that terrible he decided to promote from within?

Then he should've promoted from within and made Bowness the GM. But he didn't. He made himself the GM. The structure would've been the exact same. He could have still done most of the media. The optics would have been better.

We're 9 months in to Andlauer's tenure and this is still a skeleton front office hoping that a rookie GM can wear multiple hats while leaning on a guy who hadn't worked in the league for 10 years. The new guys sound similar to the old guys just with a nicer coat of paint.

 

[Relapsing]

Probably because Staios looked deeper than hockey DB?

4 year contract really is a non-issue, DJwas here 5 years, MacLean 4 years, Boucher 3,

Honestly, some of you are just looking for reasons to complain at this point

DJ initially signed for 3 years. Extended for another 2 with an option for an additional year after.

Paulrus signed an initial 2 year contract, won the Jack Adams, and was extended another 3.

Boucher did sign a 3 year contract, yes.

No one you've listed was given a 4 year contract out of the gate.

You think people are looking for reasons to complain: I think this franchise keeps gifting us reasons to complain, and it's getting real tiring.

 

[chipsens]

I'm here to analyze the relevant data that we have on the decisions. Not to bitch and moan about a coach because he played for the leafs in the early 2000's. Not to claim the owner is cheap or suggest this management team is anything like the previous. You can if you want I don't care. Unwarranted crying about unsubstantiated opinions I have no time for.

Staios and Co interviewed what 10 candidates? Multiple times? They kept their cards tight to their chest. They hired someone with experience. The previous regime did non of that.

I'll gladly engage in talks about Greens past as a coach what he did and didn't accomplish. What type of coach he is. That's relevant. That's why I'm here.

OK Bert. The simple facts say Green does NOT have a winning record.. while other available coaches do.

Why did Sens prefer the guy with a losing record? It's another version of drafting the local guy who's "good in the room" versus BPA. Shot own foot, again, Charlie Brown

 

[Tragedy]

DJ initially signed for 3 years. Extended for another 2 with an option for an additional year after.

Paulrus signed an initial 2 year contract, won the Jack Adams, and was extended another 3.

Boucher did sign a 3 year contract, yes.

No one you've listed was given a 4 year contract out of the gate.

You think people are looking for reasons to complain: I think this franchise keeps gifting us reasons to complain, and it's getting real tiring.

I hope when I'm a billionaire I have this many people worried about my money for me

 

[stempniaksen]

The reaction/overreaction is simply a by-product of expectations around the team. Some of that is fan driven because Andlauer is "not Eugene Melnyk" and some of it is self inflicted with the talk of "best in class".

No one would have batted an eye if this was a Dorion hire under Melnyk ownership because that's what the expectations were. This group was supposed to be the group to aim higher, be better and bring success. It's pretty obvious at this point that this group is viewing success through a longer scope but fans are absolutely allowed to voice some displeasure with what looks from the outside as "more of the same". I'm going to emphasize "from the outside" here because most fans/fans here have no idea of the inner workings of the team or what has gone on behind the scenes. The optics are bad and fan reaction is line with these optics.

It doesn't mean Green can't or won't succeed here, but it's another funny step for a group that has made a lot of promises and has given a lot of lip service about exhaustive searches.

 

[PlayOn]

Then he should've promoted from within and made Bowness the GM. But he made himself the GM.

Does it really make a difference if he wants to give Bowness a bit more time/experience? And maybe not throw him into this, considering the tension around the team and fanbase?

There’s no issue with him taking this on to start before he gives it to Bowness.

To reply to your edit: I’m sure it’s part optics. Staios is the one taking the heat for this, not Bowness… which could be what he did not want to throw him into.

 

[flyingfingers]

I hope when I'm a billionaire I have this many people worried about my money for me

Oh don't you worry, soon enough you'll have Andlauer in the media talking about how fans need to open up their wallets. It's not his team. It's our team!

 

[NyQuil]

 

[bert]

Everything I've seen about the type of person he is. You're forgetting we've been fans for decades. We knew who green was when he was a prospect. We knew who he was when he was breaking into the league. We know who he was when he retired.

Did he magically change? If so, I'd like to see proof.

Also, his record looks awful. The complaints about him sound awful.

What are the positives with statistical evidence of those positive attributes?



See, the thing is, his record indicates much more negative than positive.. so if a piece is mostly positive, you know it's a fluff piece.

With his track record, you would expect 75% of the article to be negative if it was very accurate...if it's 75% positive, it's clearly not accurately displaying the results.

The type of person he is based on how he played hockey? Are you serious? I was gonna answer your other post but I don't really want to waste my time when someone is this unhinged.

Green coached a dysfunctional bad team with dysfunctional management in the NHL. His AHL and WHL track record is as good as it gets. You're choosing this position and not doing anything outside of reading off old standings. When someone wants to use relevant discussion pieces like former players opinions you throw it away. So just admit why you're here. You want to cry and complain.

 

[OttawaSenators11]

Not a good look.

Is this going to be Melynk all over again ? Why are we shying away spending few extra million on a coach with an actual track record ? So disappointing that Green wasn’t our first choice and basically only hired because we could afford him.