Post-Game Talk: The biggest game of the McDrai era

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Who should start Game 5?


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Forgot About Drai

Dr Drai the Second
Jul 10, 2009
9,424
3,591
Edmonton
Nurse is a #2 at worst. Guy plays the tough minutes in the league annually and comes out majorly on the + column every year. I usually don't consider +/- the end all be all but when it's a long term pattern, it's notable. Yes he's mistake prone but the team outscores significantly when he's on the ice pretty much his whole career.

I dont disagree with you on your analysis of Nurse at all, I think you & I may just have different idea in terms of label - thats it. He's a really good player and essential to our success. I just value consistency a little more when declaring someone a top pairing guy. I know at his best, he plays as a top pairing dman. I just have hard time reconciling his low points.
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
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Well...we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I should add ...there have been many times when I have disagreed with a commentator.
Most of the posters hree too acknowledged Darnells play in first games. In the games in Edmonton Darnell was +4 and hadn't given up an EV goal. With last change LA was working matchups differently.

But pairing Nurse with Desharnais was a rook coach type of mistake and it cost us. Woody quickly changed the pairing and limited Desharnais toi thereafter. Again facing the Kings complete with Fiala and Vilardi was a different test for the Oilers pairings and D. Desharnais failed that test abjectly. Nobody is saying different. That was Desharnais stinking all period.
 

Forgot About Drai

Dr Drai the Second
Jul 10, 2009
9,424
3,591
Edmonton
Oiler fans think other teams top pairing D never make mistakes.

Doughty was worse than anything nurse has done last night

I just dont think top pairing D make 5 mistakes for 5 goals against every ~5-10 games. Everybody makes mistakes, from Makar to Mcdavid and everyone in between.

I have been very complimentary of him as well. I just dont think hes a slam dunk top pairing.
 
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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
34,381
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Most of the posters hree too acknowledged Darnells play in first games. In the games in Edmonton Darnell was +4 and hadn't given up an EV goal. With last change LA was working matchups differently.

But pairing Nurse with Desharnais was a rook coach type of mistake and it cost us. Woody quickly changed the pairing and limited Desharnais toi thereafter. Again facing the Kings complete with Fiala and Vilardi was a different test for the Oilers pairings and D. Desharnais failed that test abjectly. Nobody is saying different. That was Desharnais stinking all period.
Ekholm has been a player (for years now) that can absorb the difficulties of mentoring a young Dman.
Nurse isnt that player and likely never will be. For $9M+ he should be that player.

That speaks volumes.
 

iCanada

Registered User
Feb 6, 2010
19,983
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Edmonton
Nah. I thought Kings had 3 other penalties in game. my bad. I was one off. Absolutely the Kempe penalty has to be called. The question is whether its a single or double minor. Some saying major but the NHL rarely calling majors in OT.

Idk, I thought the other calls were fair too.

The tripping interaction on Draisaitl all the Kings fans arguing about is clearly a trip. He has his stick right on Draisaitl's skates and then pushes him over it. If stick isn't there Draisaitl doesn't fall. He also clearly uses the stick as a lever.

 

Tobias Kahun

Registered User
Oct 3, 2017
44,136
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You're obviously referring to me and I clearly never said that. I just dont think top pairing D make 5 mistakes for 5 goals against every ~5-10 games. Everybody makes mistakes, from Makar to Mcdavid and everyone in between.

I have been very complimentary of him as well. I just dont think hes a slam dunk top pairing.
Not just you, more of a blanket statement.

had posters calling him a 3m D last night
 
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Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
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I dont disagree with you on your analysis of Nurse at all, I think you & I may just have different idea in terms of label - thats it. He's a really good player and essential to our success. I just value consistency a little more when declaring someone a top pairing guy. I know at his best, he plays as a top pairing dman. I just have hard time reconciling his low points.
If Nurse was being paid 6-7M I don't think there would be a ton of complaints. unfortuantely that contract adds scrutiny, and thats perfectly reasonable. Darnell is not earning pay, and nowhere close to it. Going forward its looking like Ekholm and Booch could be bigger pieces here and we'll need cap for that. Its possible that Darnell contract ultimately prices himself off this club.
 
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Laodongxi

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Mar 8, 2011
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I had to turn it off early in the first period. I've watched this team so long I can sense that bad things are going to happen. And sure enough. I switched to a tv series to distract myself but kept checking the score. They started to come back. And back some more. And then all the way back. And then blew it again. And came back again. Right at the very end!

I still couldn't watch. At that point I would be in jinx territory. And the stress would be too great.

And we get the frigging miracle!!!

How's that for neurotic viewing/non-viewing!
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
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Islands in the stream.
Ekholm has been a player (for years now) that can absorb the difficulties of mentoring a young Dman.
Nurse isnt that player and likely never will be. For $9M+ he should be that player.

That speaks volumes.
Oh no argument there, as I just stated above. Nurse is not earning contract, not even close. Its looking like we have to move that out down the road.

Capwise we have to retain Ekholm and Booch. Those will be our best D moving forward. Nurse has to be moved.
 
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OfCorsiDid

Time is a flat circle.
Mar 20, 2017
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The thing that happens to a lot of players is that the longer they stay up with a team the more they are expected to work the specific schemes whether they work or not for them. Desharnais is slow, and he knows that, so it isn't natural for him to be standing the line like that on the Arviddson goal. His play early with Oilers would be to fall back and just contain. Probably not a goal if he does that. But he's quite clearly told to pinch to pucks to prevent entry, like the team is told. This particular aspect doesn't work for Desharnais.

But its not worked for Ceci either. Even Nurse has had considerable struggles with the instruction to go to the boards more. Myself I want D more in front of net and containing. But the Manson package has D be aggressive to puck. Whether or not the specific D can do that or not.

This is really interesting. I think you’re definitely on to something.

I mean, when you look at the D-core at a high level you see a pattern emerge:

Nurse: elite speed, good puck handler, mediocre puck mover.

Ceci: average speed, mediocre puck handler, average puck mover.

Ekholm: above average speed, elite puck handler and mover.

Bouchard: above average speed, great puck handler, good puck mover.

Kulak: elite speed, average puck handler, mediocre puck mover.

Broberg: above average speed, good puck handler, average puck mover.

And then…

Desharnais: below average speed, mediocre puck handler, bad puck mover.

What made Desharnais effective despite these meh capabilities was his size and defensive acumen. The problem now is unlike in the regular season, in the playoffs a team will be more able to game plan against you and even if you are a good defender if someone finds your weaknesses which aren’t really supported by the rest of the team or the system you’re playing in, you’re gonna get exposed.
 
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CupofOil

Knob Flavored Coffey
Aug 20, 2009
48,347
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NYC
I dont disagree with you on your analysis of Nurse at all, I think you & I may just have different idea in terms of label - thats it. He's a really good player and essential to our success. I just value consistency a little more when declaring someone a top pairing guy. I know at his best, he plays as a top pairing dman. I just have hard time reconciling his low points.
I think there's a big difference in our analysis because you're insinuating that he's a #3. I just can't agree with that on any level.

You're not wrong about the inconsistencies but, as I said, part of that is because he's being tasked with some of the hardest minutes in the league with some of the worst D partners that a #1 has to work with. Despite all that, he comes out far ahead playing those tough minutes every year.

I think he's strong at even strength, PKing is his weakness and that's where you see most of his mistakes. I think part of that is because positioning is more important than speed for a PKer and as we all know, his positioning is his biggest weakness.
 

Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
44,316
16,747
Edmonton
Nurse is a #2 at worst. Guy plays the tough minutes in the league annually and comes out majorly on the + column every year. I usually don't consider +/- the end all be all but when it's a long term pattern, it's notable. Yes he's mistake prone but the team outscores significantly when he's on the ice pretty much his whole career.
I actually think he's an undisputable #1 and over a season he definitely comes out ahead against super tough minutes. But a performance like the one he had last night is pretty inexcusable. When he's out there with Broberg or Desharnais he needs to be more responsible.

I'm not super worried though. I feel like he's been pretty good outside of last night.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

Registered User
Feb 19, 2003
16,457
18,123
Vancouver
I noticed that and thought of your lines suggestion right away. Very good call, and they should stick with it. I honestly would sit Yamo as he is simply being pushed out of the series. Kostin, Shore or even Holloway in limited minutes would be more effective IMO. I am glad Woody finally loaded up Line 1 however why he went back to what clearly wasn't working for the start of the 3rd and which saw us get outplayed 12-1 in shots till the 10 minute mark is baffling.
I just don't think Woodcroft would bench Yamamoto. I most definitely would push him down the line-up to 3W and think he can be an effective energy guy who skates well enough and can play decent in own zone and neutral zone... just zero finishing ability with o-zone opportunity. This team could really use Janmark's steady veteran game who I would see being a great complement as a 3LW with McLeod and Yamamoto.

The passive third period start and for more than ten minutes was very weird after they rolled the Kings to get back in the game. Not sure why Woodcroft went back to the split super elites.
 
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Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
48,565
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Islands in the stream.
I had to turn it off early in the first period. I've watched this team so long I can sense that bad things are going to happen. And sure enough. I switched to a tv series to distract myself but kept checking the score. They started to come back. And back some more. And then all the way back. And then blew it again. And came back again. Right at the very end!

I still couldn't watch. At that point I would be in jinx territory. And the stress would be too great.

And we get the frigging miracle!!!

How's that for neurotic viewing/non-viewing!
I had a hard time watching 3rd and OT real gut check time and I knew it was going to be on edge the whole way. You'll never see more drama or closer games than what we're seeing. LIke others have said this is way better than BOA.
 

Forgot About Drai

Dr Drai the Second
Jul 10, 2009
9,424
3,591
Edmonton
I think there's a big difference in our analysis because you're insinuating that he's a #3. I just can't agree with that on any level.

You're not wrong about the inconsistencies but, as I said, part of that is because he's being tasked with some of the hardest minutes in the league with some of the worst D partners that a #1 has to work with. Despite all that, he comes out far ahead playing those tough minutes every year.

I think he's strong at even strength, PKing is his weakness and that's where you see most of his mistakes. I think part of that is because positioning is more important than speed for a PKer and as we all know, his positioning is his biggest weakness.

Its kind of hard for me to explain - I dont think hes fully a #3 either. I just think he swings wildly through being at his best a #1 to at his worst looking like #6. It makes it hard for me to classify him.

Either way, we need him to play well and hes an important player for us going forward.
 

ToeMcDrag83

5-14-6-1
Aug 25, 2010
4,354
2,719
Oil Country
View attachment 695633


Is is watching same series as we are?
1682362295974.png
 

OfCorsiDid

Time is a flat circle.
Mar 20, 2017
20,768
32,689
Toronto, ON
Nah. I thought Kings had 3 other penalties in game. my bad. I was one off. Absolutely the Kempe penalty has to be called. The question is whether its a single or double minor. Some saying major but the NHL rarely calling majors in OT.

Boarding penalties can only be minor penalties, major penalties or match penalties.

You can not assess a boarding double minor.

EDIT: same with crosschecking.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
34,381
14,880
I just don't think Woodcroft would bench Yamamoto. I most definitely would push him down the line-up to 3W and think he can be an effective energy guy who skates well enough and can play decent in own zone and neutral zone... just zero finishing ability with o-zone opportunity. This team could really use Janmark's steady veteran game who I would see being a great complement as a 3LW with McLeod and Yamamoto.

The passive third period start and for more than ten minutes was very weird after they rolled the Kings to get back in the game. Not sure why Woodcroft went back to the split super elites.
Janmark is not an easy player to replace. He does everything well especially on the PK and I think his absence really hurts the PK.

Regarding Woodcroft...
The thing I dont understand is benching Kostin. Now I havent really been isolating on him so I dont know if he has been out of position defensively but I cant think of another reason to give him 3:38 overall and zero mintes in the 3rd period.
 

Mav3rick07

Registered User
Jul 28, 2007
11,850
11,439
The thing I noticed about the Kane, Hyman and Leon goals is they shot the puck. They didn't pass, they didn't deke, they just shot it. And look what happened.

More rubber on Korpisalo and hopefully we can start putting up 4-5 goals per game.
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
48,565
62,805
Islands in the stream.
This is really interesting. I think you’re definitely on to something.

I mean, when you look at the D-core at a high level you see a pattern emerge:

Nurse: elite speed, good puck handler, mediocre puck mover.

Ceci: average speed, mediocre puck handler, average puck mover.

Ekholm: above average speed, elite puck handler and mover.

Bouchard: above average speed, great puck handler, good puck mover.

Kulak: elite speed, average puck handler, mediocre puck mover.

Broberg: above average speed, good puck handler, average puck mover.

And then…

Desharnais: below average speed, mediocre puck handler, bad puck mover.

What made Desharnais effective despite these meh capabilities was his size and defensive acumen. The problem now is unlike in the regular season, in the playoffs a team will be more able to game plan against you and even if you are a good defender if someone finds your weaknesses which aren’t really supported by the rest of the team or the system you’re playing in, you’re gonna get exposed.
Thanks. The schemes were running now expect more from D and require deeper D. What Manson is running is using D to dispossess and limit play in our end as quick as possible. Lots of pinching to the boards from D, lots of pinching and staying up to the blueline. But these are danger approaches that backfire and get burned occasionally, or even often.

The schemes are related to all of Ceci, Desharnais, even Nurse looking worse than they did before. Nurse struggle STARTED last spring. He had been playing very good until then.

Conversely a Ronnie Low 90's D scheme made the most of what was a pretty ordinary D core. it wasn't pretty but got the job done and he specifically went with schemes that were easier for D, and whereby forwards had more responsibility. This worked for that club.

For sure, as soon as Desharnais was here long enough he as going to be expected to conform to scheme, and its his downfall. He can't work the prescribed schemes.

Even Ekholm, the longer he's here, he's looking a bit more average and more instance of being caught out of position, due to schemes.

Manson is running aggressive schemes utilizing D heavily as shot and entry suppression agents. You need the right D to do that. You also need forwards in right back pressure at line to do that.

Desharnais could perform the Ronnie Low scheme. he can't perform this one.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
34,381
14,880
I think there's a big difference in our analysis because you're insinuating that he's a #3. I just can't agree with that on any level.

You're not wrong about the inconsistencies but, as I said, part of that is because he's being tasked with some of the hardest minutes in the league with some of the worst D partners that a #1 has to work with. Despite all that, he comes out far ahead playing those tough minutes every year.

I think he's strong at even strength, PKing is his weakness and that's where you see most of his mistakes. I think part of that is because positioning is more important than speed for a PKer and as we all know, his positioning is his biggest weakness.
I agree with what you are saying about Nurses positioning. I think ultimately that is a product of decision making which is hit and miss with Nurse.
That for me is why he isnt and never will be a #1 dman. If he was paired with a reliable dman who makes the right reads and decisions most of the time then he is a solid #2.
Thats why i think some people see him as a #3 dman because unless you have a legit #1 dman beside him he will have his struggles.

As I stated above...that reality that Nurse simply doesnt have what it takes to mentor a young dman is very telling. Most if not all #1 dmen have that capability.
 

oXo Cube

Power Play Merchant
Nov 4, 2008
11,231
11,924
In your closet
Boarding penalties can only be minor penalties, major penalties or match penalties.

You can not assess a boarding double minor.

EDIT: same with crosschecking.

Maybe a homer take, but If Kempe had done that to Bouchard in the 1st period instead of in overtime he would have been tossed IMO. He took a stride into the hit, lead with the stick, and caught only numbers on a player at a vulnerable distance from the boards.

But regardless it's not really a conspiracy thing. NHL referees aren't calling a major penalty in playoff overtime unless it was some Chris Simon shit.
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
48,565
62,805
Islands in the stream.
Boarding penalties can only be minor penalties, major penalties or match penalties.

You can not assess a boarding double minor.

EDIT: same with crosschecking.
The NHL has done it though. They've done it several times. What the NHL has written in book and what they do are sometimes different things. I've seen that exact boarding play be a double minor more times than I remember. ;)
 

OfCorsiDid

Time is a flat circle.
Mar 20, 2017
20,768
32,689
Toronto, ON
The thing I noticed about the Kane, Hyman and Leon goals is they shot the puck. They didn't pass, they didn't deke, they just shot it. And look what happened.

More rubber on Korpisalo and hopefully we can start putting up 4-5 goals per game.

They finally listened to Bernie!
 
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