The better career: Crosby or Ovechkin?

[paracord]

You're the one fabricating that I'm saying "goals are everything". Stop being disingenuous, it's tiring.

Overall production was in Ovechkin's favor here. He had a higher performance to #10, and much closer to #1. So from an overall points perspective, Ovi's season was more Hart-worthy.

And yes, I do value goals more - and I know you don't. But 100% of players, coaches, GM's are choosing the 80 goal, 0 assist guy than the 0 goal, 80 assist guy - this is without even getting into the statistical fact that goals are more valuable than assists (which I don't want to debate as I already know you will ignore the numbers and don't buy into it).

So yes - Ovechkin was a better overall point producer in 2015 than in Crosby's season, and the biggest difference maker is that Ovechkin had one of the best goalscoring seasons of this era there and was completely dominant in that area.

You can talk about carrying a line - how about Ovechkin carrying that Capitals team in 2015? He scored 53 goals and #2 on his team had 21 LOL.

You can talk about taking on matchups to create depth - but do you not think that every team was focussing 100% of their best players to stop Ovi in 2015? As I said, he was by FAR the best goal scorer in the world. Of course he was also doing the exact same thing lol.

100% of coaches or GMs are choosing Crosby as the #1 overall pick vs. Ovechkin as 18 year olds, knowing what we know now.

That's just a fact.

Also, when you say "production," what do you mean? More goals are scored when Crosby is on the ice vs. Ovechkin. Crosby scores more points, period.

Also, Crosby's +/- is far better than Ovi by over 120 goals. Also, Crosby has 3x more stanley cups, and has won more games when his team plays Ovi's team.

So what do you mean by "Overall Production?"

 

[daver]

98-99?

so because the trophies existence hurts your argument its a negative because they didnt award it until 8 years before crosby/Ovi joined the league. Itd be one thing if the argument was being made that Ovi is better because he won 1 extra rocket Richard. Ovi owned that trophy to the point where they should rename it after him. Crosby didnt dominate any category unless your going to make one up now. Crosby was simply very good for a very long time which isnt a negative. Dont see how this could be shown objectively when all of it is opinion controlled by what values are being held.

The exercise of confirming the value that hockey community places on overall offense, not just goalscoring, has been done to death.

How many Hart trophy nominations/Lindsay nominations did OV win with his 9 Rockets on his resume?Eleven

How many Hart trophies/Linday nominations did Crosby win with only 2 Rockets on his resume? Thirteen

So the whole "Way more hardware" argument seems be useless.

 

[TheLegend27]

No, it's because he played better than Ovechkin did in international competitions.

Canada was undefeated in 2014 Olympics and was considered one of the most dominant national teams of all time. Do you think they don’t win if Crosby and Ovi switch places?.

There’s no cap in international Hockey, so in today’s contacts, Crosby got to play with say, a 250 million Canada roster, compared to 120 million ish for Ovi. Sort of an unfair comparison.

 

[RooBicks]

Sigh, "the goals are everything" has been debinked unless you think the players, coaches, and GMs all have it all wrong. Overall production with a slight bias towards goals in the case of similar production is the best you can hope for here.

Crosby's overall game, his ability to carry a line of any quality player on his line, and take on any matchup to create depth separates himself from almost every other Top 10 scorer over the past 20 years, if not all-time.

Congrats OV on being the best forward in 14/15, argubly the weakest season by the elite forwards of the league of all-time. It objectively compares on the same tier as Crosby's 18/19 season. It doesn't matter how far ahead the leading scorer was.

Right: Ovechkin has been Brett Hull for like 10 years now. A truly great player, but not among the absolute greatest for at least half his career. The earlier years were a different story, but they're long gone and have been for quite some time. Crosby has been and remains a play driver. Ovechkin has been nothing of the sort for a long time.

 

[paracord]

98-99?

so because the trophies existence hurts your argument its a negative because they didnt award it until 8 years before crosby/Ovi joined the league. The goal posts that have been moved in order to devalue goals in the NHL is absolutely fascinating. Itd be one thing if the argument was being made that Ovi is better because he won 1 extra rocket Richard. Ovi owned that trophy to the point where they should rename it after him. Crosby didnt dominate any category unless your going to make one up now. Crosby was simply very good for a very long time which isnt a negative. Dont see how this could be shown objectively when all of it is opinion controlled by what values are being held.

His point was that the "goal scoring title" wasn't even a thing until fairly recently. Point scoring was the traditional "scoring title" that the NHL saw as important.

Ovi's accomplishments in leading the league in goals are certainly great. But again, the Art Ross is the most important scoring trophy, and still is today.

 

[Midnight Judges]

100% of coaches or GMs are choosing Crosby as the #1 overall pick vs. Ovechkin as 18 year olds, knowing what we know now.

That's just a fact.

No. It isn’t.

It’s just a thing a penguins fan just made up.

 

[daver]

You're the one fabricating that I'm saying "goals are everything". Stop being disingenuous, it's tiring.

One has to start being disingenuous to stop being disingenuous. It took you three paragraphs to prove my point.

You can talk about carrying a line - how about Ovechkin carrying that Capitals team in 2015? He scored 53 goals and #2 on his team had 21 LOL.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Maybe you're misunderstanding? I'm not commenting on whether assists are more important than goals.

Actually, you did. You just don’t seem to be aware of it.

 

[paracord]

No. It isn’t.

It’s just a thing a penguins fan just made up.

I think we just had a poll here even, but it may have been lost in the data issue they had last week.

"If you were a GM, who do you take #1, Ovi, McDavid, or Crosby."?

Crosby was leading by miles. McDavid was 2nd. Ovi barely registered. What GM wouldn't take a balanced centerman like Crosby over a high scoring winger? Come on. This isn't just Pens fans making this up.

Crosby simply affects the game more than Ovi. That's why he's scored more, that's why he's won more, etc., than Ovi.

 

[daver]

Canada was undefeated in 2014 Olympics and was considered one of the most dominant national teams of all time. Do you think they don’t win if Crosby and Ovi switch places?.

This is the metric to decide who is better? Great, put Crosby on the Caps in the last 20 years and they win multiple Cups as Crosby would not have been so reliant on having to stack his line to produce at his era best rate.

And he has better goaltending as shown before.

 

[koyvoo]

If I ever become as sad and pathetic in my fandom as the hardcores on either side of this argument, someone please let me know. Because clearly it wouldn’t be obvious.

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby is the better player and has had better career. He will always be ranked higher by the vast majority of the hockey world.

I think Ovechkin had the best stretch of consecutive play between (2007-2008 through 2009-2010), but that’s about it. He’s been clearly the lesser player of the two for about 15 years now.

 

[paracord]

Actually, you did. You just don’t seem to be aware of it.

I really didn't and have no idea what you're talking about. Goals and assists are both very important. I simply said Crosby is all time elite at both. Ovi is all time elite at 1.

Crosby's goal scoring resume is far better than Ovi's playmaking resume.

 

[daver]

Overall production was in Ovechkin's favor here. He had a higher performance to #10, and much closer to #1. So from an overall points perspective, Ovi's season was more Hart-worthy.

If you don't think the Hart voters recognize Crosby's elite 2-way game I am not sure what to tell you. His only flaw was bad luck and bad timing with injuries.

 

[SkinsFan09]

If you don't think the Hart voters recognize Crosby's elite 2-way game I am not sure what to tell you. His only flaw was bad luck and bad timing with injuries.

That elite two way play is long gone and has been for a while. At one point though absolutely.

 

[daver]

That elite two way play is long gone and has been for a while. At one point though absolutely.

Well, the discussion was about 18/19 where he clearly was playing all around great hockey. And if by "long gone", do you mean this year based on his plus/minus?

 

[TheLegend27]

The exercise of confirming the value that hockey community places on overall offense, not just goalscoring, has been done to death.

How many Hart trophy nominations/Lindsay nominations did OV win with his 9 Rockets on his resume?Eleven

How many Hart trophies/Linday nominations did Crosby win with only 2 Rockets on his resume? Thirteen

So the whole "Way more hardware" argument seems be useless.

To be honest, the degree of difficulty in winning a Rocket is arguably higher than a 5+ Hart finish. Every forward is competing for the Rocket, and Ovi is consistently the only one who wins. Crosby meanwhile has 10 spots he can occupy for a hart nomination. Meanwhile, after the fourth place, Hart nominations 5-10 are usually decided by a few votes, the difference between being 10th or not in Hart nominations might literally be one fifth place vote. Hart is very top heavy with voting.

 

[Caps8112]

If I ever become as sad and pathetic in my fandom as the hardcores on either side of this argument, someone please let me know. Because clearly it wouldn’t be obvious.

I actually enjoy arguing back-and-forth with the same penguins fans over the last 20 years. Obviously my username is very generic, but there’s a few penguins fans that I’ll remember and usually look to read what they have to say on this topic. End of the day both players are gonna be top 10 players of all time.

 

[daver]

To be honest, the degree of difficulty in winning a Rocket is arguably higher than a 5+ Hart finish.

Your opinion doesn't seem to jibe with the hockey world that clearly places more value on overall offensive production.

 

[SkinsFan09]

Well, the discussion was about 18/19 where he clearly was playing all around great hockey. And if by "long gone", do you mean this year based on his plus/minus?

Plus/minus is an antiquated stat that people only use when it suits their needs and suddenly discredit when it doesn't so no.

 

[daver]

Plus/minus is an antiquated stat that people only use when it suits their needs and suddenly discredit when it doesn't so no.

So what unantiquated stats show that he is not a good 2-way anymore for a long time?

 

[paracord]

Plus/minus is an antiquated stat that people only use when it suits their needs and suddenly discredit when it doesn't so no.

Goals for vs. against at even strength is antiquated?

 

[TheLegend27]

Your opinion doesn't seem to jibe with the hockey world that clearly places more value on overall offensive production.

Maybe I went overboard, I just think Ovi’s nine Rockets will be remembered better than Crosby’s Hart finishes. Casual fans won’t dig into the Hart nominations, but they will see the nine Rockets.

 

[daver]

Maybe I went overboard, I just think Ovi’s nine Rockets will be remembered better than Crosby’s Hart finishes. Casual fans won’t dig into the Hart nominations, but they will see the nine Rockets.

So we should rely on casual opinions to make serious decisions? That sounds about right in this day and age of the 15 second attention span.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Most will say Crosby obviously but as a fan who puts very little stock in team accomplishments when comparing individual players I say it's incredibly close but I take Ovi. Ovi at his absolute peak was more dominant overall than Crosby IMO. And his otherworldly goal scoring ability more impactful than Crosby's 2 way play and playmaking. And Ovi has more individual hardware than Crosby and it's actually not as close as many would expect. Sure, injuries had a part in that but that has to be taken into account when comparing the two. There really isn't a right or wrong answer here though, different people will have different preferences and lean one way or another.