OT: The Arizona Coyotes Lounge XVI - The Netflix, Disney+ Alternative

[TheLegend]

There's plenty of blame to throw around during all this mess. In this situation I view it like that guy that died when he walked out on the race track to yell at Tony Stewart a few years ago. Yeah Stewart is a known dick. Could he have avoided contact or did he do it on purpose? Answers to both might be yes. But the guy WALKED ONTO THE DAMN RACE TRACE DURING THE RACE! Where does common sense come in to play? How about personal responsibility? You see a mob of rioters coming, move. You see a bunch of cops in riot gear marching towards you, f***ing move! Did the cop want to run him over? I don't know but I also don't know if that guy just wanted to get run over to be a victim. It's like a big competition to see who can be the biggest victim these days.

Don’t think the guy wanted to get knocked down by the police. But.... we weren’t there to hear what may have been said between them either.

However walking up to the front of a moving police line isn’t the same as walking onto a race track.

 

[rt]

RE: Buffalo incident.

What happened to the elderly man was pure accidental.

The two officers who he walked up on were part of a unique squad trained to deal with prison/jail riots. They pushed him back to get him to turn around and walk away and he lost his balance in the process. Maybe they pushed him too hard given his age but they did exactly what they were trained to do.

You could plainly see one of them wanted to assist him right away but he was pulled off by the supervisor because they had a medic team ready to handle those situations and they were called up immediately by the supervisor.

Now I have to admit when I first saw the clip coming over social media my first reaction was anger for the man to end up on the ground as he was. But after I looked at the entire clip a few times it became pretty clear that initial reaction was wrong.

The police did exactly what they were trained to do. Unfortunately those two officers who were suspended for pushing on the elderly man are going to end up being used as pawns in all of this. That is wrong.

Shut the f*** up. Other option is don’t put your hands on a frail 75 year old. It’s pretty easy. I’ve managed to do it for 35 years. Your opinion on this is absolute trash.

 

[rt]

Don’t think the guy wanted to get knocked down by the police. But.... we weren’t there to hear what may have been said between them either.

However walking up to the front of a moving police line isn’t the same as walking onto a race track.

It’s pretty easy not to be a Pejorative Slured goon. Cops have a shitty and stupid job. They deal with crazy assholes all the time. It should be super easy not to crush a geezer for no reason. Very easy. Your opinion is dumb as f***.


By Pejorative Slur I meant Pejorative Slured person. Meaning mentally Pejorative Slured. Meaning developmentally delayed.

 

[rt]

It’s EXTREMELY easy to see when you need to put your hands on someone versus your arms around someone. Just grab the stupid geezer. Don’t f***ing crush him. It’s indefensible. And if you try to defend it, f*** you.

 

[TheLegend]

Shut the f*** up. Other option is don’t put your hands on a frail 75 year old. It’s pretty easy. I’ve managed to do it for 35 years. Your opinion on this is absolute trash.

Go reread my statement rt. I took all of that in consideration. That frail 75 yr. old actually grabbed the one officer’s wrist as they were trying to get him to turn around and move.

You..... don’t..... do...... that....... period.

You do that to any cop who’s on station and you will get a response. Those officers are trained for that. And if you want to be dumb enough to test it for yourself be my guest.

It sucks.... I get it.

 

[rt]

Go reread my statement rt. I took all of that in consideration. That frail 75 yr. old actually grabbed the one officer’s wrist as they were trying to get him to turn around and move.

You..... don’t..... do...... that....... period.

You do that to any cop who’s on station and you will get a response. Those officers are trained for that. And if you want to be dumb enough to test it for yourself be my guest.

It sucks.... I get it.

It pretty easy to wrap up a geezer and get him seen to. Just like a 4 year old. Dumb as f*** to shove him off.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

There's plenty of blame to throw around during all this mess. In this situation I view it like that guy that died when he walked out on the race track to yell at Tony Stewart a few years ago. Yeah Stewart is a known dick. Could he have avoided contact or did he do it on purpose? Answers to both might be yes. But the guy WALKED ONTO THE DAMN RACE TRACE DURING THE RACE! Where does common sense come in to play? How about personal responsibility? You see a mob of rioters coming, move. You see a bunch of cops in riot gear marching towards you, f***ing move! Did the cop want to run him over? I don't know but I also don't know if that guy just wanted to get run over to be a victim. It's like a big competition to see who can be the biggest victim these days.

Not to derail the thread, but here's what happened in the New York sprint car race with Stewart.

The kid who died got wrecked by Stewart on the previous lap. As Stewart was coming around under the caution flag, the kid got out of his car and angrily approached Stewart's car. Stewart, in a move to intimidate the kid, goosed the throttle. Unfortunately, since the kid had gotten way too close at that point, and because sprint cars are wildly overpowered for their size and weight, the kid got run over.

The kid was an idiot. But so was Stewart. And honestly, if you're behind the wheel of a race car, you don't do what Stewart did when an unprotected person is in close proximity to you. It doesn't matter if it was a hot track or not. You had two hotheads fronting at each other, but one of them had a few hundred pounds of steel and a roll cage protecting him, and thus the onus was on him to have more restraint.

After the fact, Stewart got off very easy because of his name, and because his lawyers posthumously smeared the kid by suggesting he was under the influence of marijuana at the time of incident. He shouldn't have. He should have at least been convicted of involuntary manslaughter. But because he could outspend the kid's family, and because his lawyers were able to hem and haw their way to a conclusion that special circumstances were extant (they were competitors on a closed racing circuit and the normal rules of risk, intent, and culpability were radically different), he got off basically scot-free.

As to how that pertains to the 75-year-old guy getting shoved by the cops, yes, he had a range of better options for choices. That doesn't mean he deserved to be seriously injured because a riot cop got fed up and decided to put the fear of God into him. As for the "HE WAS ASKING FOR IT" argument, that's never a good strategy.

 

[RemoAZ]

Go reread my statement rt. I took all of that in consideration. That frail 75 yr. old actually grabbed the one officer’s wrist as they were trying to get him to turn around and move.

You..... don’t..... do...... that....... period.

You do that to any cop who’s on station and you will get a response. Those officers are trained for that. And if you want to be dumb enough to test it for yourself be my guest.

It sucks.... I get it.

Or he could have just moved and there's no incident. At some point, personal responsibility has to come into play. I'd prefer not to get run over by riot police. Therefore I will not stand anywhere near them, let alone right in front of them. It's not a difficult decision either.

 

[RemoAZ]

Not to derail the thread, but here's what happened in the New York sprint car race with Stewart.

The kid who died got wrecked by Stewart on the previous lap. As Stewart was coming around under the caution flag, the kid got out of his car and angrily approached Stewart's car. Stewart, in a move to intimidate the kid, goosed the throttle. Unfortunately, since the kid had gotten way too close at that point, and because sprint cars are wildly overpowered for their size and weight, the kid got run over.

The kid was an idiot. But so was Stewart. And honestly, if you're behind the wheel of a race car, you don't do what Stewart did when an unprotected person is in close proximity to you. It doesn't matter if it was a hot track or not. You had two hotheads fronting at each other, but one of them had a few hundred pounds of steel and a roll cage protecting him, and thus the onus was on him to have more restraint.

After the fact, Stewart got off very easy because of his name, and because his lawyers posthumously smeared the kid by suggesting he was under the influence of marijuana at the time of incident. He shouldn't have. He should have at least been convicted of involuntary manslaughter. But because he could outspend the kid's family, and because his lawyers were able to hem and haw their way to a conclusion that special circumstances were extant (they were competitors on a closed racing circuit and the normal rules of risk, intent, and culpability were radically different), he got off basically scot-free.

As to how that pertains to the 75-year-old guy getting shoved by the cops, yes, he had a range of better options for choices. That doesn't mean he deserved to be seriously injured because a riot cop got fed up and decided to put the fear of God into him. As for the "HE WAS ASKING FOR IT" argument, that's never a good strategy.

My point was personal responsibility. If you don't want to get hit by moving traffic, you don't walk into it. If you don't want to get hit by a large number of riot police, you don't stand in front of them. Am I crazy to think people need to be held accountable for their decisions? Now if the 75 year old man had mental issues, that is of course a different matter all together.

 

[XX]

Go reread my statement rt. I took all of that in consideration. That frail 75 yr. old actually grabbed the one officer’s wrist as they were trying to get him to turn around and move.

You..... don’t..... do...... that....... period.

You do that to any cop who’s on station and you will get a response. Those officers are trained for that. And if you want to be dumb enough to test it for yourself be my guest.

It sucks.... I get it.

I love the implication that cops are caveman stupid and only have an 'overwhelming force' setting when dealing with a problem so people best walk on eggshells around them. Totally normal. Wasn't even the first elderly person to get shoved:



Guys have MRAPs and full on riot gear, can't figure out a better way to move someone along. Lots of cops acting out their Punisher/Judge Dredd fantasies right now.

 

[MIGs Dog]

My point was personal responsibility. If you don't want to get hit by moving traffic, you don't walk into it. If you don't want to get hit by a large number of riot police, you don't stand in front of them. Am I crazy to think people need to be held accountable for their decisions? Now if the 75 year old man had mental issues, that is of course a different matter all together.

The person on the other end of the irresponsible behavior is not without liability. For example, someone steps in front of you on the 101, do you have an obligation to try and avoid them? From a legal standpoint maybe not as you can claim you didn't see them with enough time to react, but from a moral standpoint you absolutely try to avoid hitting them. Same with the Buffalo cops. The correct response is the one where he doesn't receive an injury that could easily have been avoided.

 

[MIGs Dog]

I love the implication that cops are caveman stupid and only have an 'overwhelming force' setting when dealing with a problem so people best walk on eggshells around them. Totally normal. Wasn't even the first elderly person to get shoved:



Guys have MRAPs and full on riot gear, can't figure out a better way to move someone along. Lots of cops acting out their Punisher/Judge Dredd fantasies right now.

So the old man was armed with a lethal "cane gun" weapon...sounds justified.

 

[Sinurgy]

I think a lot of this could be solved by simply taking away police SUVs and replacing them with Priuses.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I think a lot of this could be solved by simply taking away police SUVs and replacing them with Priuses.

A lot of other problems could be solved in AZ by replacing all the SUVs and full/oversize pickups with Priuses. "But I need this gargantuan vehicle - to tow muh boat to the lake twice a year....and i dont wanna look like a p****y"

 

[MIGs Dog]

A lot of other problems could be solved in AZ by replacing all the SUVs and full/oversize pickups with Priuses. "But I need this gargantuan vehicle - to tow muh boat to the lake twice a year....and i dont wanna look like a p****y"

Who you calling a p!#@?

 

[RemoAZ]

The person on the other end of the irresponsible behavior is not without liability. For example, someone steps in front of you on the 101, do you have an obligation to try and avoid them? From a legal standpoint maybe not as you can claim you didn't see them with enough time to react, but from a moral standpoint you absolutely try to avoid hitting them. Same with the Buffalo cops. The correct response is the one where he doesn't receive an injury that could easily have been avoided.

What you're talking about is a mistake. That group of riot cops didn't come out of nowhere. It was a choice to stand in front of them just like it was a choice for the driver to walk on the track during the race. Completely different. That's why I believe people need to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody seems to want to do that anymore. It's always everybody else's fault for what they do or how they feel.

 

[MIGs Dog]

What you're talking about is a mistake. That group of riot cops didn't come out of nowhere. It was a choice to stand in front of them just like it was a choice for the driver to walk on the track during the race. Completely different. That's why I believe people need to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody seems to want to do that anymore. It's always everybody else's fault for what they do or how they feel.

Disagree. Have you heard of suicide by cop? Even when the mentally deranged want the cops to kill them, the police have a legal and moral obligation to reach a peaceful resolution if possible.

 

[rt]

I think a lot of this could be solved by simply taking away police SUVs and replacing them with Priuses.

I completely agree. I’ve been saying for 15 years that letting regular cops dress up like swat cops is a huge problem. Attracts absolutely the wrong candidates. Give them Chevy Volts instead of Chevy Tahoes. Go back to slacks, tucked in button up, tie with clip and peaked cap. Think “Police Academy” movies. If they’re driving a vehicle that a social worker would drive instead of a urban tactical assault vehicle, and dressed like they’re business professionals rather than black water mercenaries, doing a deep cover extraction behind enemy lines, you might see a different mentality.

 

[RemoAZ]

Disagree. Have you heard of suicide by cop? Even when the mentally deranged want the cops to kill them, the police have a legal and moral obligation to reach a peaceful resolution if possible.

I don't disagree that the cops should/could have gone around the guy. Like I said in my original post about it, there's plenty of blame to go around. But that doesn't eliminate personal responsibility. Don't stand there or move the f*** out of the way when you see a mob of people coming at you and there's no issue. Is it easier for one guy or a group to avoid each other? He clearly could have not been hit if he just decided not to and that's on him. If you don't believe that, then your lack of any personal responsibility is what drives me nuts.

 

[rt]

I don't disagree that the cops should/could have gone around the guy. Like I said in my original post about it, there's plenty of blame to go around. But that doesn't eliminate personal responsibility. Don't stand there or move the f*** out of the way when you see a mob of people coming at you and there's no issue. Is it easier for one guy or a group to avoid each other? He clearly could have not been hit if he just decided not to and that's on him. If you don't believe that, then your lack of any personal responsibility is what drives me nuts.

He’s a f***ing geezer, bro. I have given exactly zero f***s about 9/10 of the billy club action I’ve seen since this all went down, but a 100 year old feeble old skeleton? Come the f*** on. Just pick him up and move his ass. Cops should be used to dealing with crazy weirdos. You can’t just smash them all up. This isn’t the f***ing cave man era. Grab the stupid old geezer and put him somewhere.

Those cops were f***ing Pejorative Slurs. Defending them isn’t defending cops. They did more to hurt their brothers in blue that 98% of these protesters ever could. Attacking those morons is defending police with brains.

 

[Sinurgy]

A lot of other problems could be solved in AZ by replacing all the SUVs and full/oversize pickups with Priuses. "But I need this gargantuan vehicle - to tow muh boat to the lake twice a year....and i dont wanna look like a p****y"

To be fair if you have a big enough boat, you actually need a SUV/pickup to tow it regardless of how many times a year you go.

I completely agree. I’ve been saying for 15 years that letting regular cops dress up like swat cops is a huge problem. Attracts absolutely the wrong candidates. Give them Chevy Volts instead of Chevy Tahoes. Go back to slacks, tucked in button up, tie with clip and peaked cap. Think “Police Academy” movies. If they’re driving a vehicle that a social worker would drive instead of a urban tactical assault vehicle, and dressed like they’re business professionals rather than black water mercenaries, doing a deep cover extraction behind enemy lines, you might see a different mentality.

I joke but honestly I believe this too. I seriously think something like this should be part of the change that needs to happen as I think it'll produce results. It'll help discourage those people who are attracted to law enforcement because of military fantasies but lack the balls and commitment to actually join said military. I call out those type of people because they are the types who crave asymmetrical power and I wouldn't be surprised if they make up a considerable amount of the "bad apples" that are causing these problems.

 

[_Del_]

I don't think he's defending them as much as saying he deliberately out himself in a high-risk situation.

If I say, "maybe don't run into the store and leave your convertible unlocked and running", I'm not defending car thieves. I'm suggesting you made a poor choice putting yourself at risk of having your car stolen.

I can think the officers should be charged and think that guy was looking for trouble and found it. It's not one or the other. You're both right. There's no excuse for what happened, and that guy chose to out himself in a bad spot directly headed for officers and grabbed one.

The far bigger issue is with the unlawful use of force, just like it is on the car thieves. But that doesn't mean the old guy is above some criticism for his action.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

To be fair

"To be fairrrrrr...." (I binged Letterkeny during all this)

if you have a big enough boat, you actually need a SUV/pickup to tow it regardless of how many times a year you go.

Certainly. But it does beg the questions...

Do you really need a big boat, as you live in a desert?, and

Would it be more cost effective to not drive the behemoth every trip 365 days a year, or even better, *rent* a behemoth for those 2 weekends?

Full disclosure, I owned a Grand Cherokee in the mid 90s, so I could see the state I moved to more completely. Got rid of it after 2+ years after a trip to a primitive area of the north rim, and have never felt the need to drive one since.

 

[RemoAZ]

I don't think he's defending them as much as saying he deliberately out himself in a high-risk situation.

If I say, "maybe don't run into the store and leave your convertible unlocked and running", I'm not defending car thieves. I'm suggesting you made a poor choice putting yourself at risk of having your car stolen.

I can think the officers should be charged and think that guy was looking for trouble and found it. It's not one or the other. You're both right. There's no excuse for what happened, and that guy chose to out himself in a bad spot directly headed for officers and grabbed one.

The far bigger issue is with the unlawful use of force, just like it is on the car thieves. But that doesn't mean the old guy is above some criticism for his action.

Thanks. That's exactly what I mean. I'm so tire with everybody being a victim. Personally, I'd go out of my way to help an elderly man or woman. It was still stupid to stand in front of those cops ESPECIALLY with what we've been seeing. They are beating and killing people in questionable situations that are being filmed all over the country. You really want to gamble with a whole mob of them by standing in their path? He made a bad choice and got blasted. Do I feel sorry for the guy? Absolutely. Do I think he was f***ing stupid for standing there? Hell yeah.

 

[RemoAZ]

"To be fairrrrrr...." (I binged Letterkeny during all this)



Certainly. But it does beg the questions...

Do you really need a big boat, as you live in a desert?, and

Would it be more cost effective to not drive the behemoth every trip 365 days a year, or even better, *rent* a behemoth for those 2 weekends?

Full disclosure, I owned a Grand Cherokee in the mid 90s, so I could see the state I moved to more completely. Got rid of it after 2+ years after a trip to a primitive area of the north rim, and have never felt the need to drive one since.

Some people drive larger vehicles because it makes them feel safer. Some do it for enjoyment. I have a 3" lift with big tires on my Tacoma. Had a '14 with the same set up and got my '20 in December. The first one never went off road and I don't expect this one to either. I don't even want to take it down dirt roads because it will get dirty. I just like to sit up in traffic and I love the way it looks and drives. I don't drive a full size because it would barely fit in my garage. I certainly don't need a truck, especially a lifted one. I just prefer to drive one. I don't see the problem with that.