TV: The All - Encompassing Star Trek Thread. Debate Long + Prosper

[Jussi]

Netflix/Amazon paid for the shows. They're still losing tons of money on them despite that.

Discovery has no pop culture relevancy at all.

I'm sorry but that show is more popular outside the hardcore Trekkies than you think. The first season out of Netflix, it was among the most pirated shows.

 

[johnjm22]

I'm sorry but that show is more popular outside the hardcore Trekkies than you think. The first season out of Netflix, it was among the most pirated shows.

The show is so irrelevant, that it only had 13 critics reviewed the last season on RT. (I think it's up to a whopping 17 now!)

So few critics reviewed, they couldn't even give it a score on Metacritic.

 

[Jussi]

The show is so irrelevant, that it only had 13 critics reviewed the last season on RT. (I think it's up to a whopping 17 now!)

So few critics reviewed, they couldn't even give it a score on Metacritic.

First of, they were heavily review bombed which is evidenced by the high number of Audience Reviews. Normally tv shows don't get that high numbers at RT. Second, this might come as news to you but most people don't go to RT or IMDB and review movies or tv shows they've seen. I don't do that. That's why most watched lists on streaming services or torrent sites are better metrics.

 

[johnjm22]

First of, they were heavily review bombed which is evidenced by the high number of Audience Reviews. Normally tv shows don't get that high numbers at RT. Second, this might come as news to you but most people don't go to RT or IMDB and review movies or tv shows they've seen. I don't do that. That's why most watched lists on streaming services or torrent sites are better metrics.

I'm not talking about audience reviews.

 

[Jussi]

I'm not talking about audience reviews.

But I was. My original point was that it's more popular outside the Trekkie bubble than you think it is. Number of critics is irrelevant in that matter.

 

[johnjm22]

But I was. My original point was that it's more popular outside the Trekkie bubble than you think it is. Number of critics is irrelevant in that matter.

You can tell how popular a show is by how many critics are reviewing it.

Also, your point about review bombing doesn't seem to hold up considering even when it has a low number of reviews they're still negative.

 

[Jussi]

You can tell how popular a show is by how many critics are reviewing it.

Also, your point about review bombing doesn't seem to hold up considering even when it has a low number of reviews they're still negative.

No, demand for shows is a better metric.

The lower number of RT Audience Scores, which are not even verified fro tv shows or streaming movies, hence why the likelyhood of review bombing is high, is more evidence than even the Fandom Menace got tired of downvoting.

 

[Osprey]

High levels of pirating aren't proof of popularity. Popularity is the state of being "regarded with favor, approval, or affection by people in general." Pirating something doesn't mean that you approve of it. In fact, you may not if you're not willing to pay for it and support it. A lot of people in the "I'd watch it if it were free" camp isn't exactly a sign of popularity.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Catching up on some Trek.

Finished Picard. Had stopped in disgust after Season one a couple of years back. Season two was more of the same crap. Season three was a marked improvement. Enjoyed it for the most part. Was glad to see them toss out most of the crap characters they introduced in the first couple of seasons and bring back the old crew.

Starting the first season of Strange New Worlds. Surprisingly enjoyable so far. After Discovery its a nice rebound for the franchise.

 

[Jussi]

High levels of pirating aren't proof of popularity. Popularity is the state of being "regarded with favor, approval, or affection by people in general." Pirating something doesn't mean that you approve of it. In fact, you may not if you're not willing to pay for it and support it. A lot of people in the "I'd watch it if it were free" camp isn't exactly a sign of popularity.

Dude, there literally wasn't a way of watching Discovery other way anymore in Europe after it left Netflix.

 

[Osprey]

Dude, there literally wasn't a way of watching Discovery other way anymore in Europe after it left Netflix.

It looks like that isn't true.

Star Trek: Discovery Season 4 Will Be Made Available Internationally After Netflix Removal

Starting Friday across the world, new episodes will release in the wake of international backlash.

gizmodo.com

Starting with countries that have already begun rollout of Paramount+ outside the U.S.— Australia, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Finland, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay, and Venezuela—the first two episodes of Discovery season four will release this Friday, November 26, a day after episode two releases in the U.S. and Canada.

Across Europe in Austria, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Switzerland, and the UK, episodes will be released at 9:00 p.m. local time through the free streaming platform Pluto TV—which is owned by ViacomCBS—“each Friday, Saturday, and Sunday,” with simulcast releases airing on the dedicated Star Trek channel for Pluto in Austria, Switzerland, and Germany. Several of those markets and more—including the UK, Germany, France, Russia, South Korea—will also be able to purchase new episodes of Discovery on select digital platforms, beginning on November 26.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I'm sorry but that show is more popular outside the hardcore Trekkies than you think. The first season out of Netflix, it was among the most pirated shows.

this is correct.

as a hardcore sci fi fan--I think the hatred from trekkies or treks whatever they call themselves now is that they had a problem with decision on the lead character and the casting. When Janeway was announced they went nuts with woman in the lead role. Took them a long time to accept that. Discovery is not my favourite trek but the only problem I have is that they lead actress is just good at what she needs to do.. she has gotten better. I realize she came from The Walking dead so she was used to strange stuff--but there is a humour is all Treks that she has not been able to pull of

 

[Osprey]

this is correct.

as a hardcore sci fi fan--I think the hatred from trekkies or treks whatever they call themselves now is that they had a problem with decision on the lead character and the casting. When Janeway was announced they went nuts with woman in the lead role. Took them a long time to accept that. Discovery is not my favourite trek but the only problem I have is that they lead actress is just good at what she needs to do.. she has gotten better. I realize she came from The Walking dead so she was used to strange stuff--but there is a humour is all Treks that she has not been able to pull of

I hope that you're not suggesting that the hatred of Discovery is because the lead character is a black woman, especially since fans previously accepted a lead character that was a woman and, before that, black. The real reasons have to do with the character, itself, the actress' acting ability (as you noted), design decisions (like the new Klingons), certain plot points and, in general, the show not feeling like Star Trek.

 

[Blender]

this is correct.

as a hardcore sci fi fan--I think the hatred from trekkies or treks whatever they call themselves now is that they had a problem with decision on the lead character and the casting. When Janeway was announced they went nuts with woman in the lead role. Took them a long time to accept that. Discovery is not my favourite trek but the only problem I have is that they lead actress is just good at what she needs to do.. she has gotten better. I realize she came from The Walking dead so she was used to strange stuff--but there is a humour is all Treks that she has not been able to pull of

Sonequa Martin Green had put in some terrible performances on The Walking Dead, so I was definitely not happy when she was named the lead in a new Star Trek show. A lesser known black actress without the history of bad performances would have been preferable for sure, because it had nothing to do with her gender or race. The character was very badly written as well which didn't help, and was constantly overshadowed by better performances by Jason Issac's in season 1 and Anson Mount in season 2, which didn't help. I stopped watching after episode 2 of season 3 though, so maybe it has improved? I'm sure people do exist that criticized her for bad reasons, toxic fans exist in many franchises.

I don't remember this widespread backlash against Janeway's casting, but the internet wasn't as ubiquitous at the time. The character was certainly subject to lots of criticism during and after the run of the show with the acting bipolar all the time, the "reset button" plotlines, and with how derivative the show was.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Sonequa Martin Green had put in some terrible performances on The Walking Dead, so I was definitely not happy when she was named the lead in a new Star Trek show. A lesser known black actress without the history of bad performances would have been preferable for sure, because it had nothing to do with her gender or race. The character was very badly written as well which didn't help, and was constantly overshadowed by better performances by Jason Issac's in season 1 and Anson Mount in season 2, which didn't help. I stopped watching after episode 2 of season 3 though, so maybe it has improved? I'm sure people do exist that criticized her for bad reasons, toxic fans exist in many franchises.

I don't remember this widespread backlash against Janeway's casting, but the internet wasn't as ubiquitous at the time. The character was certainly subject to lots of criticism during and after the run of the show with the acting bipolar all the time, the "reset button" plotlines, and with how derivative the show was.

I am old enough to remember when janeway was announced--originally it was a famous french Canadian movie actress that was announced(I believe she lasted 1/2 day) they then announced Mulgrew--or Mrs Columbo as it was reported at the time--it took awhile for the fandom to calm down. Several sci fi mags openly suggested that Chakotay should take over as Captain

 

[Osprey]

I am old enough to remember when janeway was announced--originally it was a famous french Canadian movie actress that was announced(I believe she lasted 1/2 day) they then announced Mulgrew--or Mrs Columbo as it was reported at the time--it took awhile for the fandom to calm down. Several sci fi mags openly suggested that Chakotay should take over as Captain

I'm old enough, as well, and I don't remember a backlash. At the time, I frequented the Star Trek newsgroups, which were the message boards of the mid 90s, so I would've seen it. I think that you're remembering criticism of the Janeway character or Mulgrew's acting and mistaking it for intolerance of a female lead. I remember being excited for Voyager and liking the first half of the first season, but gradually souring on it, partly because of how Janeway was written and acted.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I'm old enough, as well, and I don't remember a backlash. At the time, I frequented the Star Trek newsgroups, which were the message boards of the mid 90s, so I would've seen it. I think that you're remembering criticism of the Janeway character or Mulgrew's acting and mistaking it for intolerance of a female lead. I remember being excited for Voyager and liking the first half of the first season, but gradually souring on it, partly because of how Janeway was written and acted.

I remember clearly certain sections of trek fandom having trouble with Janeway--these were the same guys who had a problem avery brooks who was a Shakespearean actor.

 

[Jussi]

It looks like that isn't true.

Star Trek: Discovery Season 4 Will Be Made Available Internationally After Netflix Removal

Starting Friday across the world, new episodes will release in the wake of international backlash.

gizmodo.com

Speaking from a Finnish point of view. Paramount+ was bundled with the Ruutu+ domestic streaming service for an extra fee and few paid for it. Also, there was a free trial period for the app I got via Xbox Ultimate Game Pass but the Paramount+ app was not available in Finland for Xbox and I've only seen US people on my friends list using it so maybe not in Europe at all. That was mostly because it was going to be merged with PeaCOCK, Showtime content and Sky originals series into Sky Showtime. Now I got the free trial period for the Halo show, so that my friend could watch it. I downloaded the episodes because the app wasn't even available for my tv at the time. I did not see Discovery there at the time at all. The torrents for the episodes had always around 3000+ seeders and around the same or more leechers when I was downloading them, which is on the level of the most popular tv shows. GoT and Hotd were double that at their peak but not many other shows reach 3000 or more.

 

[Jussi]

I remember clearly certain sections of trek fandom having trouble with Janeway--these were the same guys who had a problem avery brooks who was a Shakespearean actor.

I recall seeing some English scifi mag covers in some bigger stores in Finland that were very anti-Janeway. And when the show began airing on Finnish tv, the medias mentioned that Kate Mulgrew was not received well initially by fans

 

[Jumptheshark]

I recall seeing some English scifi mag covers in some bigger stores in Finland that were very anti-Janeway. And when the show began airing on Finnish tv, the medias mentioned that Kate Mulgrew was not received well initially by fans

The problem was with the OG fans and while they cheered the progressive attitude--they had a problem with show when they followed through with the natural progression of having people of different sexes and nationalities in position of authority.

 

[Blender]

The problem was with the OG fans and while they cheered the progressive attitude--they had a problem with show when they followed through with the natural progression of having people of different sexes and nationalities in position of authority.

There is some of this of course but there is also many people who just live on nostalgia and never want anything to change. There was plenty of complaining when TNG started that Picard wasn't like Kirk.

 

[Jussi]

The problem was with the OG fans and while they cheered the progressive attitude--they had a problem with show when they followed through with the natural progression of having people of different sexes and nationalities in position of authority.

It really is ironic given how the basic premise of Star Trek is that of a progressive liberal utopia, where gender nor race is no hindrance, that when real world situation allows for this to be actually represented on-screen, that these very same fans are having a problem with it.

 

[Jumptheshark]

It really is ironic given how the basic premise of Star Trek is that of a progressive liberal utopia, where gender nor race is no hindrance, that when real world situation allows for this to be actually represented on-screen, that these very same fans are having a problem with it.

I think by definition it is ironic.

 

[Tawnos]

I think by definition it is ironic.

I've been doing a re-watch of TNG (first time in a while) and am on S3 right now. 15 episodes in and at least 9 of them have been critiques of some element of American society, whether it's the results of extreme individualism (The Survivors), or proxies for runaway speculation in the stock market (The Price), or how we treat our veterans (The Hunted), or how far the US is responsible for the effects of economic imperialism (The High Ground), etc, etc.... its all progressive politics and it always has been.

The people who want progressive politics out of Star Trek make me wonder if we watched the same show.

 

[Osprey]

It's also ironic when fans of a world in which gender and race don't matter are quick to make them the most significant matter during arguments. Apparently, people who weren't fans of Janeway are sexist and people who aren't fans of Burnham are sexist and racist. You might as well be saying that there can be no legitimate criticisms of either. That's not constructive or progressive. If we want a society like Star Trek's, in which gender and race don't matter, we need to stop making them the issue at every opportunity and accept that treating people equally doesn't mean sparing them from criticism.