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TV: The All - Encompassing Star Trek Thread. Debate Long + Prosper

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You could already see in the Discovery season 2 trailer that they were trying to be more like the Orville.

We live in strange times when a show is being inspired by parody of itself.

I actually think the idea for a Lower Decks show is fine. The TNG Lower Decks episode was good. It's the execution that matters. Considering what we've seen from the hacks running Discovery thus far, I have little faith it will be executed well.
 
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johnjm22 said:
You could already see in the Discovery season 2 trailer that they were trying to be more like the Orville.

We live in strange times when a show is being inspired by parody of itself.

I actually think the idea for a Lower Decks show is fine. The TNG Lower Decks episode was good. It's the execution that matters. Considering what we've seen from the hacks running Discovery thus far, I have little faith it will be executed well.
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It's pretty sad that a parody of Star Trek in the Orville ended up being a much better Star Trek show than Discovery did, and now in response to that these hacks are just trying to copy the Orville.
 
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I also liked that they found and seem to be promoting their own Seth MacFarlane wannabe.

Another Trek parody that this seems that it'll be a bit like is the novel Redshirts, which focuses entirely on the lowest Ensigns rather than the ship's officers. There was supposed to be a TV show adaptation of Redshirts years ago, but it fell through.

At least this'll be an animated series. That should significantly diminish the potential for it to be embarrassing to the franchise. Most fans who would be embarrassed for the franchise are old enough that they're not going to watch an animated series. Heck, most Trek fans probably haven't seen the previous animated series, even though it's 40 years old and featured the voice work of the TOS cast members, and most Star Wars fans probably haven't seen Clone Wars and such.

In a way, I hope that it's good, since it might be a good way to introduce my young nephew to Star Trek. On the other hand, that feels as cruel as bringing up a kid to be a fan of a consistently mediocre sports team.
 
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The Nemesis said:
I choose to read this as "remember when Star Trek had Star Trek people at the helm."

The biggest problem now is that modern execs think it's better to slap the Star Trek name on whatever focus groups, market research and disconnected studio heads think people want in their Sci-Fi in general, rather than creating a chance for creative folk invested in the property to do something entertaining with it that will attract viewers.

If I may be indulged in using a classic Trek plot exposition device, the "Phlebotinum Analogy" (aka "explain a specific, technical, often fantastic plot issue in relatable analogous terms that the character (and thereby the audience) can understand" technique)

It's like walking into a restaurant and ordering a steak, only to get a piece of chicken that's been cut and cooked to sort of resemble a steak. And then the waiter tells you that this is better because it allegedly gives the steak-eaters what they want (something they swear is a passable facsimile of actual steak), but also being what all the people who wouldn't normally eat at the steakhouse want too (chicken that isn't the stuffy, boring, unevolved steak that their parents ate and they've never cared for). When instead what they should do is get chefs who know how to make the best damn steak you've ever tasted so that all the chicken eaters will come to the restaurant curious, try the steak, and say "you know what? This is really really good."

Admittedly that's a terribly clunky analogy that I mostly did to set up and pay off a bit of (bad) meta Trek 'humor', but the point stands:

A wider audience will watch a show that is unmistakably Star Trek at its core as long as it is good. But the built-in Star Trek fan audience won't necessarily sit happily through a show that is mostly engineered to attract the anti-Trek crowd by disavowing the franchise's spirit, no matter how much of a glossy Trek-ish veneer you paint onto its surface layers.
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This is tangential to your point, but I sometimes wonder how much Star Trek fans are really science fiction fans. In re-watching Star Trek as I've gotten older, I've become less impressed with its merits as science fiction. I still love the show. As a study of characters in fantastical, speculative situations, sure it definitely meets the criteria of sci-fi. But compared to a lot of the science fiction out there, mostly in books, enjoying Star Trek is more akin to reading Popular Science magazine than, say, something like Astronomy or Earth. All three are pretty accessible to the general public, but the latter two are halfway to scientific journals. There's nothing wrong with it, or anybody enjoying that level and little else beyond it, but fundamentally it is pop. So that puts the question in my head, how many people who love Star Trek consume other, heavier, science fiction?

The spirit of the show, in the aspirational nature of optimism, hope, camaraderie, etc, are a different thing and certainly are what gives Star Trek a lot of its appeal, but those aren't fundamentally science fiction. You can have that in other shows (see: The West Wing).

I'm certainly not criticizing or looking down on anyone for liking Star Trek for whatever reason they like. Just thinking out loud. If I struck up a conversation with any random Star Trek fan, what are the chances that they've read a Hugo Award winner?
 
Tawnos said:
This is tangential to your point, but I sometimes wonder how much Star Trek fans are really science fiction fans. In re-watching Star Trek as I've gotten older, I've become less impressed with its merits as science fiction. I still love the show. As a study of characters in fantastical, speculative situations, sure it definitely meets the criteria of sci-fi. But compared to a lot of the science fiction out there, mostly in books, enjoying Star Trek is more akin to reading Popular Science magazine than, say, something like Astronomy or Earth. All three are pretty accessible to the general public, but the latter two are halfway to scientific journals. There's nothing wrong with it, or anybody enjoying that level and little else beyond it, but fundamentally it is pop. So that puts the question in my head, how many people who love Star Trek consume other, heavier, science fiction?

The spirit of the show, in the aspirational nature of optimism, hope, camaraderie, etc, are a different thing and certainly are what gives Star Trek a lot of its appeal, but those aren't fundamentally science fiction. You can have that in other shows (see: The West Wing).

I'm certainly not criticizing or looking down on anyone for liking Star Trek for whatever reason they like. Just thinking out loud. If I struck up a conversation with any random Star Trek fan, what are the chances that they've read a Hugo Award winner?
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I don't really agree with the idea that real science fiction fans read science fiction novels, if that's what you're saying. That seems like an awfully outdated mindset (as in half a century old outdated). There are more ways than ever to consume sci-fi, and books are becoming the least relevant, since people are reading less than ever and those with talent for writing sci-fi are going into TV and movies, not novels. You definitely don't need to read novels to be a science fiction fan anymore.

Now, liking TV shows and movies like Star Trek doesn't necessarily make you a science fiction fan, either. After all, there are lots of people who will go to one of the newer Star Trek movies or watch Discovery who are "casual" fans and wouldn't really call themselves science fiction fans. If that's the point that you were trying to make, I'd agree with that.
 
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Novels still represent the leading edge of science fiction thought IMO.

I find that the other media tend to lag and don’t take the same kind of risks.

Sometimes you can get the best of both worlds when a work is adapted e.g. Arrival, Contact.
 
NyQuil said:
Novels still represent the leading edge of science fiction thought IMO.

I find that the other media tend to lag and don’t take the same kind of risks.

Sometimes you can get the best of both worlds when a work is adapted e.g. Arrival, Contact.
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I've read hundreds of Star Trek novels, and some are outstanding. The Invasion series which has all 4 series involved is really good.

First Strike (Star Trek, #79; Invasion!, #1) by Diane Carey
 
NyQuil said:
Novels still represent the leading edge of science fiction thought IMO.

I find that the other media tend to lag and don’t take the same kind of risks.

Sometimes you can get the best of both worlds when a work is adapted e.g. Arrival, Contact.
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There have been some shows that did. The X Files, BSG, Continuum, and Fringe come to mind, although despite its risk taking, the quality of Continuum is debatable. The Expanse does, but it’s in the best of both worlds category you mentioned, and The Expanse didn’t exactly go all out on the climax of Leviathan Wakes.

But yeah, novels are the best source for quality sci-fi. Even occasionally ones that are set in whatever franchise.
 
Tawnos said:
There have been some shows that did. The X Files, BSG, Continuum, and Fringe come to mind, although despite its risk taking, the quality of Continuum is debatable. The Expanse does, but it’s in the best of both worlds category you mentioned, and The Expanse didn’t exactly go all out on the climax of Leviathan Wakes.

But yeah, novels are the best source for quality sci-fi. Even occasionally ones that are set in whatever franchise.
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This summer I watched The Expanse and I decided to do a rewatch to get ready for Season 3's release on Amazon Prime and one thing I'm noticing more now than I did before (and I really appreciate) is how they treat space. The Ships and Ship manuvers feel so realistic compared to something like Star Trek. Really looking forward to Season 3's release.
 
SJSharksfan39 said:
This summer I watched The Expanse and I decided to do a rewatch to get ready for Season 3's release on Amazon Prime and one thing I'm noticing more now than I did before (and I really appreciate) is how they treat space. The Ships and Ship manuvers feel so realistic compared to something like Star Trek. Really looking forward to Season 3's release.
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Yeah, it's interesting how they've been pretty accurate about that, but treat sound effects the traditional way sci-fi has. What I'm referring to with Leviathan Wakes, by the way, is that at the climax of it, when Miller and Holden are trying to get back to the ship, Eros basically turns into full on zombie apocalypse. Extremely intense. It was intense in the show too, but not quite at the same level.

And you should be looking forward to season 3. IMO it's the best of them so far. And there's something Trek ethos-adjacent that's starting to evolve. Don't want to give anything away, but I think you'll enjoy it.
 
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What makes the expanse so special is that it plays by the rules of physics and tech. Outside of the Epstein drive and maybe the juice, there isn't anything in the show that isn't completely unrealistic.

So when the PM starts up and doing its thing, it is super super impactful on the characters and the audience.
 
RobBrown4PM said:
What makes the expanse so special is that it plays by the rules of physics and tech. Outside of the Epstein drive and maybe the juice, there isn't anything in the show that isn't completely unrealistic.

So when the PM starts up and doing its thing, it is super super impactful on the characters and the audience.
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The Epstein drive isn't even unrealistic as a concept, it's just the execution that is right now (the amount of heat generated by that thing could vaporize the ship essentially).
 
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Just finished my 3rd rewatch of Discovery and pumped for season 2. Also doing a Star Trek cruise right before the next season drops. Feel like a kid again when you had movies and tv shows at the height around First Contact. Loving it.
 
SJSharksfan39 said:
How many Star Trek spin offs are we going to get. We got 6 in 50 years. Are we going to get another 6 in 2 years? Don't Star Wars this, CBS.
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I love Star Trek but not the 21st century made Star Trek. They need to stop making so much Star Trek especially when the kind they make isn't that good. Take a look at why Star Trek was so popular and make some good Star Trek again.
 
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It's really gotten so far away from the source material with the reboot and references and recycling.

I know Frakes is older and heavier and too much time has gone by, but why haven't they done an animated Titan movie? Frakes and Sirtis both did Gargoyles right after TNG series ended, and I'm sure Russ and maybe Mulgrew giving them orders would be interested.

Too much relying on nostalgie and polarized politics. How about technology, medicine, ethical debates. PEDs in sports. Special officers who have skills in certain areas that don't get along.
 
SimR said:
I would love to see something around a DS9 continuation maybe. How they would do that I don't know but I loved that ****. Still watch it to this day.
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rbochan said:
Just started rewatching it last night.
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I re-watched DS9 last year. Still the best after TOS, although TNG is also great. Voyager is OK, Enterprise, I never got into and Discovery, we all know about.
 
I want to thank Daisy Chain for bringing up this thread. I had this question for a while, and this thread is the perfect place to bring it up:

How would you phrase an auto-destruct or self-destruct sequence (based on the ship) where you will have a PARTIAL silent alarm?
 
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