TV: The All - Encompassing Star Trek Thread. Debate Long + Prosper

[Daisy Jane]

I just realised that we don't have a everything/catch all Star Trek Thread, - and just to debate/discuss stuff, and if people are doing re-watches and what not, a place to discuss that too. Especially with Discovery being in Hiatus (soon? now?) would be nice to see what makes Trek tick for people.

Right now I am doing a "best Of" Star Trek re-watch. I started with Enterprise, (though I think if I do this again, I might watch most of season three, vs. the episodes I picked out of interest) and more of season 4 (ditto). I didn't do TOS. (no real reason why/why not, I think i just wanted to tuck right into TNG) I'm on Unification (On my T.V), and Violations (on my laptop - long moving/unpacking story). But what I find is that everytime I do this - especially with TNG, how many episodes i discover - I thought i had watched, but realised that - no. i don't. so it's like discovering it all over again (One in particular is "A Matter of Time") didn't recall anything about it, but I truly enjoyed it.

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[frisco]

To me Trek is TOS and movies #1-6. Just one man's opinion. Tried the other stuff but never really got into it.

My Best-Carey

 

[The Nemesis]

I'm sad that the Trek thread we used to have where I posted long lists of "if you were introducing someone to Trek, watch these 10 episodes of each series" appears to be dead. There was lots of good conversation in that one.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

+10 to this thread, it's much needed

I don't mind TOS, but it has a boat load of cheese in it that is hard to overcome. I admire it for it's contributions to the genre, but that's about it.

I like TNG but only after season 3. The first two seasons should be deleted from existence. Also, every Wesley episode, except for the one where he flunks the exam and the one where he is involved with proto tom Paris, should be expunged.

DS9 is my bread and butter. Complex characters and plots. Solid writing and amazing acting makes DS9 the best trek for me.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I’ve been doing a tng rewatch for the 30th anniversary. I watched Inharitence last night.

I like all the series to varying degrees but my two favorites are TNG and DS9. I’ve gained a new appreciation for Enterprise.

I am liking Discovery but I wish the characters were more likeable. That’s one reason I enjoy Tilly and now Stamets. They both are likeable to me. Lorca I find really interesting and I am not a fan of them forcing this Michael/Ash relationship so soon. It feels artificial.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I'm sad that the Trek thread we used to have where I posted long lists of "if you were introducing someone to Trek, watch these 10 episodes of each series" appears to be dead. There was lots of good conversation in that one.

hmmmmm thats a really good question.
i'd have to think about it.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

Are there any Voyager fans. I did enjoy the series (minus the final season) and part of it was watching it as I was growing up. I know it’s probably the least liked series here but I was wondering if anyone else did like it. There’s some good debate topics Voyager did address.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Are there any Voyager fans. I did enjoy the series (minus the final season) and part of it was watching it as I was growing up. I know it’s probably the least liked series here but I was wondering if anyone else did like it. There’s some good debate topics Voyager did address.

it had its moments. I think it's biggest failing is that they forgot what they were supposed to do. when you are hand-wrapped tension (people who believe in the federation vs. people who gave it up and they have to live on a ship and have 75 yrs to get home) they very if ever went into that well.

which topics are you thinking of specifically?

 

[The Nemesis]

I'm going to see if I can dig up my episode lists. I tried searching HF for the old thread but it appears to have been culled in one of the pre-migration purges. Or it might be buried somewhere because the search feature tends to go squirrely looking through older threads.

Are there any Voyager fans. I did enjoy the series (minus the final season) and part of it was watching it as I was growing up. I know it’s probably the least liked series here but I was wondering if anyone else did like it. There’s some good debate topics Voyager did address.

What Voyager was supposed to be would've been awesome.

What Voyager ended up being was TNG-lite. Which wasn't terrible, but was just sort of a lot of forgettable "meh" that blended together. It had some really good characters (Seven, The Doctor, Janeway at her best, Tuvok, B'Lanna) and it had some disappointing characters (Harry, Chakotay, Kes, Janeway at her worst), and it had Neelix.... which.....guh.........

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I'm going to see if I can dig up my episode lists. I tried searching HF for the old thread but it appears to have been culled in one of the pre-migration purges. Or it might be buried somewhere because the search feature tends to go squirrely looking through older threads.



What Voyager was supposed to be would've been awesome.

What Voyager ended up being was TNG-lite. Which wasn't terrible, but was just sort of a lot of forgettable "meh" that blended together. It had some really good characters (Seven, The Doctor, Janeway at her best, Tuvok, B'Lanna) and it had some disappointing characters (Harry, Chakotay, Kes, Janeway at her worst), and it had Neelix.... which.....guh.........

I liked both Kes and to a lesser extent Neelix. Neelix had his moments at least.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Are there any Voyager fans. I did enjoy the series (minus the final season) and part of it was watching it as I was growing up. I know it’s probably the least liked series here but I was wondering if anyone else did like it. There’s some good debate topics Voyager did address.

I pick and choose a few episodes every now and then to watch. There were some good ones but the overall cast and story didn't catch me like TNG or TOS

 

[Blender]

I liked both Kes and to a lesser extent Neelix. Neelix had his moments at least.

I hated Kes. Replacing her with Seven was a great change, and even lead to Neelix being a better character.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I hated Kes. Replacing her with Seven was a great change, and even lead to Neelix being a better character.

Kes wasn’t written very well but I loved the episode where she is moving back in time. It was a neat concept for a time travel story. Also she was pivitol in the doctors development.

 

[The Nemesis]

Kes wasn’t written very well but I loved the episode where she is moving back in time. It was a neat concept for a time travel story. Also she was pivitol in the doctors development.

Kes felt like a grand idea that they quickly realized they had nowhere to go with. Making her a short-lived species kind of hemmed them in a bit because a show that probably expected its 7-year run was going to run into issues with a character that would pass through like 3-quarters of her life before the show ended. It kind of borked up their ability to have her form relationships with anyone.

Though I know they got rid of her because (allegedly) Jennifer Lien was disappointed that she had nothing to do and also had some issues with being allergic to the makeup adhesive for her ears (Which is why she switched to the longer hairstyle that covered the sides of her head so that she could go without the ear prosthetics as much as possible.), it also felt like a reasonable out simply because they hit an endpoint with Kes where there just wasn't much else to explore with her character

It also was apparently a last-minute switch because they had to kill off someone on network executive orders and they were gonna axe Harry, but then Garret Wang was put into Peoples' sexiest people issue and that popularity surge saved him, so Kes took the bullet instead. Which is kind of also hilarious because for the rest of the show they would do sweet ****-all with Harry as well. He didn't even get a promotion because, as one exec put it, "someone had to be the ensign."

I also wonder if part of that whole apparent behind-the-scenes Kate Mulgrew/Jeri Ryan tiff is because Seven replaced Kes. Mulgrew was allegedly really upset that Lien was let go. And then there are a lot of stories that she was a complete and total bag to Ryan for almost no discernible reason.

http://comicbook.com/startrek/2017/08/08/star-trek-voyager-jeri-ryan-kate-mulgrew-feud/#3

“There was nothing I COULD do — literally I would be nauseous when I knew these scenes were coming up. When there were a lot of scenes with this person the next day, I was sick to my stomach all night, just miserable. It was so unnecessary and just so petty; things like, oh my God…[Laughs]

We’d have scenes — because a lot of my scenes took place in this set they built for my character called the Astrometrics Lab. It was a really impressive-looking set with this huge, massive, curved green-screen and this giant window. So there’s only one entrance to the set, because all the cameras were built up on platforms and stuff to shoot the window — there was just one set of doors.
I remember this one time in particular, I had this once scene with this person, just the two of us. We do their coverage first, and shoot their side of this really dramatic scene, and then it was time for my coverage. Before every close-up, the hair and makeup and wardrobe teams come in and do touch-ups and everything to make sure everything’s right… [Laughs wildly]
[The co-star] shut the door to the set, and said, “She’s fine. LET’S GO.” Wouldn’t let them in. Just stupid, stupid stuff like that.

Another time, I don’t even think it was the same day, but a different scene with that person on the same set — we do their side first, and then it’s my coverage on close-up for this really intense scene. The literally sat off-camera picking their nails, thumbing through a book, and just haphazardly saying their lines off camera without even making eye contact.”

I also found part of my old Trek episode list. The parts that cover TOS, TNG, and DS9. I guess I didn't save the Voyager or Enterprise lists. I'll have to redo those if I want to re-post them. I'll try to do that later.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I know that story. It was still unfortunate how that whole thing transpired. Lien hasn’t been the same since, unfortunately.

 

[Blender]

Here's my list of series from this thread:

I'm going to cheat a little bit here and divide the series at any point where I think there was a drastic shift in style or quality, because it's pretty much a pattern with Star Trek.

TNG Seasons 3-7
DS9 Seasons 2-7
TOS Seasons 1-2
Voyager Seasons 4-7
TOS Season 3
DS9 Season 1
Enterprise Seasons 3-4
Voyager Seasons 1-3
TNG Seasons 1-2
Enterprise Seasons 1-2

 

[The Nemesis]

Here's my list of series from this thread:

I'm going to modify my list from that thread:

DS9 Seasons 3-7 (with a few S1-2 exceptions)
TNG Seasons 3-7 (with a few S1-2 exceptions)
TOS
DS9 Seasons 1-2
Voyager
Late-run Enterprise (last couple seasons)
TNG seasons 1-2
Early Enterprise

 

[The Nemesis]

Also my "10 essential episodes" discussion, part I: TOS through DS9.

Without wanting to reprint the entire spiel from my recovered file, the things to know are:


1) The intent of the list is "if someone who had never watched Star Trek before wanted to get the important points and understanding of the series in as little time as possible going through the whole franchise."

2) I counted multi-part episodes as a single entry. This included non-numbered serialized story continuations like in DS9.

3) I balanced necessity to understand the story of the series (which is why I include pilots even if they're not great), importance to Trek history, and how interesting the episode is itself in terms of important factors in deciding factors for inclusion. I also intentionally avoided anything too goofy (So The Trouble with Tribbles isn't in the TOS list simply because even though it's really fun, it's the kind of campy silliness that might turn someone off if they're on the fence about the franchise)

4) Episodes are listed chronologically, not by order of importance.

5) I also included 5 honorable mentions in case you wanted to expand the list to 15

TOS
1) The Corbomite Maneuver (S1, E2)
2) The Naked Time (S1, E6)
3) Balance of Terror (S1, E8)
4) The Menagerie (S1, E15/16)
5) Space Seed (S1, E24)
6) The Devil in the Dark (S1, E26)
7) The City on the Edge of Forever (S1, E28)
8) The Doomsday Machine (S2, E6)
9) Mirror, Mirror (S2, E10)
10) The Tholian Web (S3, E9)

HM: Where No Man Has Gone Before (S1, E1), Dagger of the Mind (S1, E10), The Galileo Seven (S1, E13), Arena (S1, E19), Journey to Babel (S2, E15)

Comments: The heavy tilt in favor of season 1 wasn't intentional, but turns out to be entirely unsurprising. It makes sense to avoid the mostly disappointing season 2 and the almost-entirely awful season 3. This is also the only time I figure I'll skip out on making the pilot essential viewing mostly because there's little to no continuity between the episodes.

--------------------------------------------------
TNG

1) Encounter at Farpoint (S1, E1/2)
2) Skin of Evil (S1, E23)
3) The Measure of A man (S2, E9)
4) Q Who (S2, E16)
5) Yesterday's Enterprise (S3, E15)
6) The Best of Both Worlds (S3, E26/S4, E1) & Family (S4, E2)*
7)Redemption (S4, E26/S5, E1)
8) I, Borg (S5, E23)
9) Chain of Command (S6, E10/11)
10) Lower Decks (S7, E15)

HM: The Drumhead (S4, E21), Cause & Effect (S5, E18), Relics (S6, E4), The Pegasus (S7, E12), All Good Things... (S7, E25/26)

*While Family isn't strictly part 3 of The Best of Both Worlds, it is for all intents and purposes and I feel it's necessary to close out the storyline.

Comments: If not for their importance, I wouldn't include Encounter at Farpoint or Skin of Evil. Neither is a very good episode. But they each offer something important. Most of the rest of the episodes are no-brainers. Some might question skipping Reunification, but I always felt it was a little dry, and Relics was the better TOS-throwback episode. I actually made a change from my original list, replacing The Pegasus with Lower Decks in the top 10. Lower Decks is such a fantastic, fantastic, fantastic episode. And while I love The Pegasus for its less-than-shiny Starfleet moment and I'm a sucker for a good Terry O'Quinn guest spot, I just had to make the switch because on further reflection Lower Decks is probably in the top 10 Trek episodes ever.

----------------------------------------------------
DS9
1) Emissary (S1, E1/2)
2) Duet (S1, E19)
3) The Maquis (S2, E20/21)
4) The Jem'Hadar (S2, E26) & The Search (S3, E1/2)**
5) The Way of the Warrior (S4, E1/2)
6) In Purgatory's Shadow (S5, E14) & By Inferno's Light (S5, E15)
7) Soldiers of the Empire (S5, E26)
8) Call to Arms (S5, E26)
9) Favor the Bold (S6, E5) & Sacrifice of Angels (S6, E6)
10) In the Pale Moonlight (S6, E19)
11) The Siege of AR-558 (S7, E8)
12) Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges (S7, E16)


HM: Second Skin (S3, E5) and its follow-up episode Ties of Blood And Water (S5, E19), Indiscretion (S4, E5), Hard Time (S4, E19), Far Beyond the Stars (S6, E13), Penumbra through What You Leave Behind (S7, E17-26)

** Like the TNG 3-fer, I'm counting these 3 parts as fitting together into one story.

Comments: Yeah, I cheated big time here, adding 2 episodes to my essentials list. And in total I'm putting like 34 episodes into a list that was meant to be about 15 base. Don't care. Ds9 Is the best Star Trek and its serialized nature makes it necessary to digest in larger chunks. It's worth it. Emissary would be dropped if not for being important setup. Ditto for The Maquis. That'd cut things down to 10 if not for the fact that both episodes inform a lot of what happens in Ds9 and Voyager.


------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe tomorrow I'll try to reconstruct my Voyager/Enterprise lists.

 

[peate]

I like your lists, some of my favorites are there. I would add to your TNG list, Darmok and The Inner Light, both great acting by Stewart. If I was rating Voyager, The Year from Hell, Caretaker and the various encounters with the Borg would rank highest. Enterprise I never got into it for some reason, T'Pol was cute though.

 

[Cloned]

I actually prefer Seasons 1-3 of Voyager to 4-7 because I feel they're more true to the show's original premise.

There are some good concepts in there (Seska, Basics, Tom Paris vs. Chakotay, etc.) that they didn't execute as well as they could have.

 

[The Nemesis]

I like your lists, some of my favorites are there. I would add to your TNG list, Darmok and The Inner Light, both great acting by Stewart. If I was rating Voyager, The Year from Hell, Caretaker and the various encounters with the Borg would rank highest. Enterprise I never got into it for some reason, T'Pol was cute though.

I liked Darmok alright, but it just couldn't make the cut. The Inner Light gets a ton of high praise, but I personally find it a bit overrated. It's a nice story but I don't think it's as essential. My rationale on the TNG eps was:

Farpoint: The pilot, introduces the characters and sets up the premise.
Skin of Evil: Tasha dying is the big moment of the first season and an important piece of Trek history
Measure of a Man: the quintessential Trek morality tale and a fantastic episode (that feels out of place in the otherwise mostly drab first couple seasons)
Q Who: Introduces an iconic Trek villain and is a great episode
Yesterday's Enterprise: A great time travel/what-if episode, plus it sets up Sela later on.
TBOBW/Family: TNG's highest point. TBOBW is great action and drama, and Family winds things down and gives us some great character moments for Picard, Worf, and Beverly/Wesley
Redemption: Quintessential Klingon and Romulan episode gives great background for the two essentail long-running Trek villain races
I, Borg: another strong morality tale and Hugh is a very likeable character (even if people feel like he cuts the Borg's nuts off a little bit)
Chain of Command: I actually like the B-plot of Jellico running the Enterprise almost as much as I love all the fantastic Picard/Madred interactions
Lower Decks: A unique episode in Trek and a strong reminder that the ships are bigger than the main cast.

I had to sacrifice some of TNG's strong stories if it meant squeezing in some episodes that were important thematically or to Trek history.

I actually prefer Seasons 1-3 of Voyager to 4-7 because I feel they're more true to the show's original premise.

There are some good concepts in there (Seska, Basics, Tom Paris vs. Chakotay, etc.) that they didn't execute as well as they could have.

I can see that, though I disagree. I'd rather watch TNG-lite done well than the original concept done poorly. The Kazon were an awful villain that undercut a lot of what they were trying to do and damaged Seska's effectiveness.

I'll try to have my Voyager/Enterprise lists in a little bit.

 

[Osprey]

Star Trek peaked in the early 90s and, unfortunately, has been going downhill since TNG ended, IMO. DS9 was still very good, but Voyager wasn't, and when DS9 ended, the franchise pretty much tanked. Nowadays, it's hardly recognizable as Star Trek. I hope that, one of these days, someone who understands what's special about the franchise returns it to glory. Curing the dual prequelitis and fan service diseases and getting back to looking forward again would help a lot, too.

BTW, I think that the first two seasons of TNG get a worse rap than they deserve. They're definitely not good compared to later seasons, but I would take them over anything since TNG ended. They're not necessarily better TV (for example, much of DS9 is better TV), but they're better Star Trek. Getting Star Trek right but being very rough and unpolished is much better, IMO, than getting Star Trek wrong but being highly polished like it is nowadays.

 

[The Nemesis]

I think it was Jonathan Frakes that said the first couple of seasons felt like they tried to hard to ape TOS and came off as too corny and cringey. IIRC he compared it to "putting on your parents' clothes and play-acting." and I agree.

 

[Cloned]

The first two seasons of TNG are terrible. Clunkers like "Justice" and "The Royale" and "Angel One" represent the very worst of trying to be Star Trek but making a mockery of it.

The only thing worse than TNG1 and TNG2 is TOS3.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

The first two seasons of TNG are terrible. Clunkers like "Justice" and "The Royale" and "Angel One" represent the very worst of trying to be Star Trek but making a mockery of it.

The only thing worse than TNG1 and TNG2 is TOS3.

I don't know, Threshold is pretty bad.