Prospect Info: The 2021/2022 Prospects Thread

[Gstank]

It’s literally not. It’s just society today (you included) became softer than baby poop. It’s NOT racist to aknowledge someone’s heritage. Judging them, treating them differently , etc etc is racist. They literally break down draft picks per round by nationality lol. Have you ever watched a draft? “7 Americans drafted in the first round” etc. how is that racist? They are from Russia, they are Russian…. They know this lol.

There’s not a ton of Italians in the NHL. That’s not racist… that’s a fact. There’s not a lot of Canadians playing soccer in Europe … that’s not racist … it just is what it is.

Toughen up.

From what you said earlier, you were saying he wouldnt make the NHL because he was of Chinese Descedant. That is 100% racism.... You based your opinion on his race alone not on anything to do with hockey

 

[Johnny Canucker]

From what you said earlier, you were saying he wouldnt make the NHL because he was of Chinese Descedant. That is 100% racism.... You based your opinion on his race alone not on anything to do with hockey

Nope. You are incorrect.


I stated a fact that not many Chinese descendants have made the NHL historically. That is fact. That’s not racism. So I didn’t like his chances based on factual historical data. That’s all. I don’t like the odds of someone from Spain , making it either over someone from Sweden. This is just trends and facts.

 

[Hammman]

I said he would never make the NHL shortly after he was drafted. I was subsequently called a racist because I was comparing how many Chinese descendent prospects make the NHL (same as Italian, Croatian, Greek etc).

No matter how you want to spin it, this is absolute trash. The only logical way to interpret this paragraph is that you felt that he would be a bust because he was of Chinese descent. That's it, that's all. GTFO.

 

[Vector]

This an amazing display of “telling on one’s self”.

 

[Hammman]

This an amazing display of “telling on one’s self”.

 

[Scumbag Frank]

If people post things like that on a moderated message board, imagine the things people actually say to you growing up as an Asian hockey player.
Big respect to the guys who make it far for all the extra crap they have to deal with.

 

[me2]

Look, I hate to jump in here on the wrong side of an argument, and nobody wants to be jumped all over. But...

Are we aware, that there a total of 5 players of chinese "ethnicity" who have ever played in the NHL? Wiki says there a total of 27 of Asian decent- In history. Interestingly, things are changing, as 16 of those 27 are currently in the NHL now. But that is a remarkably low number. Embarrassing actually. I kind of wonder what it says about the makeup of hockey culture, to be clear.

But I would guess this has a lot more to do with the culture of each of these groups not traditionally supporting their children going into hockey, asian countries not traditionally having hockey as a competitive pastime (like the vast vast majority of the world- who couldn't care less about the game) and therefore the talent pool not being very large. Let's look at who plays hockey at the highest level- Canada (demographic shifting), USA, Sweden, Finland, Russia, etc., mostly Caucasian majority countries. And then nobody else in the world even knows what the game is LOL

I truly can never find myself agreeing with JC and I don't now. Maybe his word choice wasn't the best and he might have come across as somewhat obtuse in his understanding of the effect of his words, but one of the basis' of his perspective might be being missed here. Hockey culture is shifting, hopefully along with society. But with so few success stories, I am not sure it is racist to say; if Woo makes it as an NHLer, he would be a significant outlier as a person of Chinese heritage. This is a fact!

I guess this is not what JC said exactly, but I want to give even him the benefit of the doubt about what he meant, which I would normally be loathe to do, so maybe I shouldn't this time either LOL

The truth that his family is 3rd or 4th generation Canadian might give us a hint to why he might be a successful outlier, but the fact remains that hockey is not as diverse a sport as it should be, and people of asian decent are not participating in anywhere near the numbers of other cultures.

OK, I will put my helmet on and take all the "you are a racist" comments too... have at er

The difference here is between "an Asian is less likely to make the NHL because fewer are interested in playing hockey" (your point) and an "drafted Asian players are less likely to make the NHL because they are Asian". The first is a very defendable argument, the second is racist.

MS's point is that ethicity/country is pretty much irrelevant once a player is playing and their talent level has been identified. Did teams pass on Kopitar because he was Slovenian, and Slovenia didn't have a hockey history? Yes, how did that work out for Vancouver. Ignoring a proven talent because of nationality/race is backwards unless there are non-player issues. Nothing about Woo was a mystery, he's 6 foot, solid build, we know his skating, played a lot of hockey, represented Canada etc. Nothing about Woo's ethnicity was relevant to him progressing or not after we drafted him, same odds are everyone else his level.

 

[bobbyb2009]

The difference here is between "an Asian is less likely to make the NHL because fewer are interested in playing hockey" (your point) and an "drafted Asian players are less likely to make the NHL because they are Asian". The first is a very defendable argument, the second is racist.

MS's point is that ethicity/country is pretty much irrelevant once a player is playing and their talent level has been identified. Did teams pass on Kopitar because he was Slovenian, and Slovenia didn't have a hockey history? Yes, how did that work out for Vancouver. Ignoring a proven talent because of nationality/race is backwards unless there are non-player issues. Nothing about Woo was a mystery, he's 6 foot, solid build, we know his skating, played a lot of hockey, represented Canada etc. Nothing about Woo's ethnicity was relevant to him progressing or not after we drafted him, same odds are everyone else his level.

I think this is fair, specific to Woo particularly. He had been exposed to hockey culture in Canada just like any Canadian boy would have been, and he had succeeded to a level of representing his country. After being drafted, there were no overt cultural adjustments for him to make- but he would have to and does have to overcome any bias, like the one maybe Johnny has expressed, within those people who are overseeing/directing his career development. I am not sure there is any evidence that any bias has held him back, but I would expect he still faces some issues with bias on his journey. In fact, some may argue the fact he was picked where he was and has the physique he has creates a positive bias that provides him with opportunity, so who knows.

I was really hoping for him to become a player here, not because of any ethnicity issues, but because we need a second rounder like him to succeed and have an impact on this terribly structured defence.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

No matter how you want to spin it, this is absolute trash. The only logical way to interpret this paragraph is that you felt that he would be a bust because he was of Chinese descent. That's it, that's all. GTFO.

Lol, ok bub.

If he wore number 27 and I said “historically players that wear number 27 don’t get drafted in the NHL based on what we have seen” is that bad? Or would it just be a fact.

You realize you don’t HAVE to wake up daily looking for things to be offended about right?

From what you said earlier, you were saying he wouldnt make the NHL because he was of Chinese Descedant. That is 100% racism.... You based your opinion on his race alone not on anything to do with hockey

So the teams that passed on Kopitar because he was Slovenian (it’s noted in many places this happened) were all racist?

 

[me2]

So the teams that passed on Kopitar because he was Slovenian (it’s noted in many places this happened) were all racist?

Nope just backwards because he wasn't from a country known for hockey.

Woo on the other was from a country well known for hockey, playing in leagues well known for producing NHL players. Why would someone not expect him to do as well as his peers?

 

[joelCAMEL]

Nope. You are incorrect.


I stated a fact that not many Chinese descendants have made the NHL historically. That is fact. That’s not racism. So I didn’t like his chances based on factual historical data. That’s all. I don’t like the odds of someone from Spain , making it either over someone from Sweden. This is just trends and facts.

Where is Jett Woo from?

 

[wetcoast]

Nope. You are incorrect.


I stated a fact that not many Chinese descendants have made the NHL historically. That is fact. That’s not racism. So I didn’t like his chances based on factual historical data. That’s all. I don’t like the odds of someone from Spain , making it either over someone from Sweden. This is just trends and facts.

Woo isn't making the NHL because he isn't good enough as a player, what his ancestry is and who how parents and grandparents are has zero to do with that.

 

[Fatass]

Nope. You are incorrect.


I stated a fact that not many Chinese descendants have made the NHL historically. That is fact. That’s not racism. So I didn’t like his chances based on factual historical data. That’s all. I don’t like the odds of someone from Spain , making it either over someone from Sweden. This is just trends and facts.

Isn’t Jet Woo from Winnipeg?

 

[604]

So the teams that passed on Kopitar because he was Slovenian (it’s noted in many places this happened) were all racist?

Yes.

Kopitar was playing in the Sweden, his skill set was obvious and his future developmental path was that of a player playing in Sweden.

Anyone who saw Slovenian ignored that rational is racist.

(To be clear, not everyone who passed on Kopitar was racist, it could also be as simple as bad scouting ).

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Yes.

Kopitar was playing in the Sweden, his skill set was obvious and his future developmental path was that of a player playing in Sweden.

Anyone who couldn't identify that is an idiot who can't use simple logic.

I asked if the teams that passed on him were racist. Were they?

 

[604]

I asked if the teams that passed on him were racist. Were they?

Obviously not. We passed on Tkachuk for Juolevi because our scouts are bad at their job.

The question you are asking has nothing to do with your prior statement.

Also, you have to see that you are complaining that everyone who disagrees with you is a bitch who looks for things to whine about all day. That's a pretty disingenuous way to approach a discussion.

Taking an us vs them approach is exactly what people should be avoiding. It's not about winning points, it's about actually having a discussion.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Yes.

Kopitar was playing in the Sweden, his skill set was obvious and his future developmental path was that of a player playing in Sweden.

Anyone who saw Slovenian ignored that rational is racist.

(To be clear, not everyone who passed on Kopitar was racist, it could also be as simple as bad scouting ).

So all those teams that passed on him were racist but there was never an investigation in to this? All those teams? You may have cracked a huge case here!

 

[cc]

I seem to recall reports that Woo looked ok in his first year in Utica. Did he take a step back or did he just not improve?

 

[Johnny Canucker]

I seem to recall reports that Woo looked ok in his first year in Utica. Did he take a step back or did he just not improve?

I feel like JR / PA are not happy with Abbotsfords approach to developing players like Danila Klimovich, Rathbone and Woo etc.

 

[604]

So all those teams that passed on him were racist but there was never an investigation in to this? All those teams? You may have cracked a huge case here!

You must see that what you wrote does not fit with your response at all. This is a discussion, it's not about winning an argument.

Also, to fall back on, "If there was racism everyone who have called it out and been punished." Is such a dumb argument...the NHL still has people working in it that enabled a coach who molested a player to get a recommendation to coach at a college. Not all bad things get punished, it's a ridiculous argument to make.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Obviously not. We passed on Tkachuk for Juolevi because our scouts are bad at their job.

The question you are asking has nothing to do with your prior statement.

Also, you have to see that you are complaining that everyone who disagrees with you is a bitch who looks for things to whine about all day. That's a pretty disingenuous way to approach a discussion.

Taking an us vs them approach is exactly what people should be avoiding. It's not about winning points, it's about actually having a discussion.

Some good points. But you missed the mark a little. It’s been noted several times that teams passed on AK because he was from Slovenia and little was known about that country etc. it wasn’t because Tkachuk vs Juolevi and scouts did a bad job. This was specific to his country. So does that make a team racist?

As for thinking people are …. (I never put in words if I think someone is a bitch) there are some that wanna have a discussion but don’t kid yourself, there are a few on here they are virtue singling attention seekers. Looking for things to be offended about. You can clearly see that.


At some point in the last 5 years it became trendy to be offended.


People don’t know my race. What if I’m Asian? And I said “only 5 players from Chinese descent have made the NHL” would these people call me racist ? Against my own race? Lol. For stating a fact …

You must see that what you wrote does not fit with your response at all. This is a discussion, it's not about winning an argument.

Also, to fall back on, "If there was racism everyone who have called it out and been punished." Is such a dumb argument...the NHL still has people working in it that enabled a coach who molested a player to get a recommendation to coach at a college. Not all bad things get punished, it's a ridiculous argument to make.

Easy with the hyperbole. “Ridiculous argument”. Using hyperbole to try to get your point across will eventually work against you and people tune you out. You think teams that passed on kopitar because he was Slovenian are racist. That’s it. That’s your stance.

 

[theguardianII]

Obviously not. We passed on Tkachuk for Juolevi because our scouts are bad at their job.

The question you are asking has nothing to do with your prior statement.

Also, you have to see that you are complaining that everyone who disagrees with you is a bitch who looks for things to whine about all day. That's a pretty disingenuous way to approach a discussion.

Taking an us vs them approach is exactly what people should be avoiding. It's not about winning points, it's about actually having a discussion.

The first pick is often the GM's decision, with Benning it was. The big rumour was the argument that resulted in Pettersson being here, that argument resulted in Brakett being canned

 

[604]

Some good points. But you missed the mark a little. It’s been noted several times that teams passed on AK because he was from Slovenia and little was known about that country etc. it wasn’t because Tkachuk vs Juolevi and scouts did a bad job. This was specific to his country. So does that make a team racist?

As for thinking people are …. (I never put in words if I think someone is a bitch) there are some that wanna have a discussion but don’t kid yourself, there are a few on here they are virtue singling attention seekers. Looking for things to be offended about. You can clearly see that.


At some point in the last 5 years it became trendy to be offended.


People don’t know my race. What if I’m Asian? And I said “only 5 players from Chinese descent have made the NHL” would these people call me racist ? Against my own race? Lol. For stating a fact …



Easy with the hyperbole. “Ridiculous argument”. Using hyperbole to try to get your point across will eventually work against you and people tune you out. You think teams that passed on kopitar because he was Slovenian are racist. That’s it. That’s your stance.

1) You can be racist against your own race. Actually happens a lot.

2) I stand by the comment that it's a ridiculous argument to say" something isn't racism because nobody was punished for it. I'm not particularly worried if people tune me out.

3) Kopitar was generally rated around 6 pre-draft clearly behind Crosby, JJ, Ryan, Brule, with Price being a wild card. Setoguchi, Lee, and Bourdon were the odd picks prior to Kopitar, you could argue all were based on need (which is why you should always draft BPA).

4) I stand by my statement if someone is ignoring players based only on nationality (I.e. I'm not drafting Owen Nolan because he's Irish) then that is a form of discrimination. It is wrong. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

5) If Woo doesn't turn into an NHLer it doesn't say anything about Asian people at all. Especially considering what our hit rate on second round picks is. To default to that is likely a sign that you are pretty prejudice.

 

[tyhee]

I'm not sure about whether this is a good thread to bring this point up, so apologize if it is the wrong thread.

In writing about the lack of development of players by the Canucks' AHL team in recent seasons, Daniel Wagner wrote about Petrus Palmu "... losing a prospect — particularly after he had a strong NHL preseason — seems like a red flag. " (ITALICS ADDED) Canucks’ prospect development in the AHL is a major issue that has to be addressed

I didn't remember that Palmu had a strong NHL preseason. In fact, I didn't remember Palmu having much of an NHL preseason at all and my recollection of reports from his time with the Comets was that the reports on him were exceptionally negative, with him showing Utica posters nothing to make anyone think he was a viable NHL prospect.

I searched for information about his time in Vancouver before he was sent to Utica. I found this from Scott Rosenhek at The perfect holiday gifts for the Vancouver Canucks fan: "I was hoping for a little more from Petrus Palmu. Darn that recency bias. That’s the big reason we don’t put a whole lot of stock on prospect games in the summer. He wasn’t particularly bad nor good. I would say he was just okay. It can be annoying to hear Travis Green say that, but in this case, it’s accurate."

This doesn't say much, but certainly a preseason which was "not particularly bad nor good, just ok" seems inconsistent with Wagner's mention of a "strong NHL preseason" seems inconsistent.

I'm aware of Palmu having scored twice in the prospects games, which aren't part of the NHL camp. Did Wagner just get fooled by that pre-training camp prospects tournament or did Palmu actually have a strong NHL preseason before being sent to the Comets?

 

[iceburg]

I'm not sure about whether this is a good thread to bring this point up, so apologize if it is the wrong thread.

In writing about the lack of development of players by the Canucks' AHL team in recent seasons, Daniel Wagner wrote about Petrus Palmu "... losing a prospect — particularly after he had a strong NHL preseason — seems like a red flag. " (ITALICS ADDED) Canucks’ prospect development in the AHL is a major issue that has to be addressed

I didn't remember that Palmu had a strong NHL preseason. In fact, I didn't remember Palmu having much of an NHL preseason at all and my recollection of reports from his time with the Comets was that the reports on him were exceptionally negative, with him showing Utica posters nothing to make anyone think he was a viable NHL prospect.

I searched for information about his time in Vancouver before he was sent to Utica. I found this from Scott Rosenhek at The perfect holiday gifts for the Vancouver Canucks fan: "I was hoping for a little more from Petrus Palmu. Darn that recency bias. That’s the big reason we don’t put a whole lot of stock on prospect games in the summer. He wasn’t particularly bad nor good. I would say he was just okay. It can be annoying to hear Travis Green say that, but in this case, it’s accurate."

This doesn't say much, but certainly a preseason which was "not particularly bad nor good, just ok" seems inconsistent with Wagner's mention of a "strong NHL preseason" seems inconsistent.

I'm aware of Palmu having scored twice in the prospects games, which aren't part of the NHL camp. Did Wagner just get fooled by that pre-training camp prospects tournament or did Palmu actually have a strong NHL preseason before being sent to the Comets?

There was generally a lot of hype around the picks from that draft. More collectively than individually. It was a strong series of selections even though one can quibble with each individual pick.
I remember saying on these boards that 5 of the picks could potentially play in the NHL. I think I even qualified it by saying there's a 50/50 chance 5 picks could play in the NHL. I got a lot of grief here for those comments.
Well, 5 years on and 5 picks have played in the NHL. We'll see now how many establish lengthy NHL careers.
My point is this, Palmu was caught up in the hype of a strong draft. Here are all these prospects coming into the system AND they got a waterbug who almost scored 100 pts in the OHL in the 6th round...wow!
So, there were some rose coloured glasses at the time. Palmu was a 19 year old at the draft. His previous OHL seasons were nothing to write home about. He did have energy and the hype of a decent draft class coming into a Vancouver market to buoy expectations.
Edit: And to answer your question: I think Wagner is probably still living with that belief.